posted
Jon, Sorry if you misread my post. I know it followed your own, but it was not in any way directed toward you.
I wrote it in direct response to an editorial column by Bruce Ramsey, and I thought that it was worded in such a way as to be unmistakably non-aggressive toward any letterhead.
I was pointing out, in my peculiarly American, independent fashion, that if the wolf takes one of my children, then I will ask my friends and neighbors to assist me in tracking him. If my friends and neibors decline, then I will hunt the wolf myself, whatever their opinions.
My most humble apologies if I have offended you, Jon.
I would make one small request of you, if you will. Please reread my post and find the phrases:
quote: "it's us or them"...black or white..."you're either with us, or against us".
...I didn't think so. I do not take offense, however.
Take care.
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
Instagram: Purcell Woodcraft
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 902 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Hi, I think that the Bruce Ramsey's article represent pretty well the European view on this matter.
Jon, freedom of speech is a great thing,but… Something which is hard to understand in this side of the pond is the freedom of hate speech. Here, racist or sexist speech are not allowed, because Europa suffered too much of the hate speech of the nazis. For me, Freedom needs weel defined limits. Total freedom is no more real freedom.
-------------------- Desire Rusovsky SDG Signs rue du Lac 24 1342 Le Pont Switzerland desire@sdgsigns.com http://www.sdgsigns.com Posts: 218 | From: Le Pont / Switzerland | Registered: Mar 2002
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I guess we're both reading too much into one another's posts. I didn't feel under personal attack and yes, I suppose I was putting words in your mouth. Those words weren't specifically chosen for you -- more like the geopolitical "territory" that you occupy...and that I believe is part of "the problem".
For the record: my strongly held opinions are never (ever) intended as personal attacks.
The United States of America is a great country and there is no doubt in my mind that the world is a better place as a result of her very existence. It is an icon of Democracy and all of the freedoms that prevail in one..."The land of opportunity" by it's own accord...the jewel in the crown of the western world.
None of this means that the USA deserved to be attacked on 9/11, but it most certainly contributed to the "reasoning" behind the selection; as did (as Bill pointed out earlier) a foreign policy that -- at times -- could be described as one of self-serving "convenience".
Like it or not, being the most prosperous and therefore most powerful nation on earth has it's responsibilities. Admittedly, this isn't always an enviable position (understatement). From the outside (and truly the armchair quarterback's position) the US is often reluctant to live up to these responsibilities (and is even occassionally negligent).
Why is the United Nations so "flacid"? From this perspective, it is because the US Government (doesn't seem to matter which administration) is simply not committed to the UN and its charter. The American Government doesn't want to share power. I would describe this position as "Democracy for us -- but not among nations...After-all, isn't it enough that we pulled your asses out of the fire back in 45? Not enough to be the world's police officer? Not enough that our people are so generous with foreign aid?" and "If we don't like it, we'll go it alone" It doesn't help that BILLIONS of dollars of back-dues go unpaid year after year either.
The United States is easily the hands-down winner of the award for "Nation of the 20th Century". However, to maintain it's title and stature the 21st century, I personally believe that you (as a nation) need to refocus.
American popular culture (I'm thinking of Jerry Springer and company -- and the whole "Reality TV" thing...perhaps entertainment itself) is a cry for a national "Raison d'etre" (a reason for being; a sense of purpose). The war on communism is over. The war on drugs was (and I suppose is) a farce -- albeit a deadly one. The war on terrorism already appears to be losing direction.
Why not make the new national purpose "Changing the world from within" (via a real commitment to the United Nations)? Seems like a noble cause to me...and one that would probably yield better results than repeating the errors of history.
God bless America with the vision, wisdom and determination to succeed.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Racist and sexist speech "is not allowed" in Europe? I didn't know that and if that's true...that is very troubling.
I'd much rather "hear" the ramblings of madmen and know who the enemy is than to have secret evil agenda's build behind closed doors.
To say what's on your mind no matter how stupid or unpopular (without fear of government reprisal), is the very basis of freedom here. The day the "thought police" gain control in America is the day America begins to crumble.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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POTTERVILLE?!?!? What I want to know is what ever happened to tiny Bedford Falls?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Hey Jon, since Jimmy Stewart died, that damned Mr. Potter took over everything. There's no more Bailey Savings and Loan either. Everybody is beholden to Mr. Potter or his right hand man, Todd.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2787 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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Racist and sexist speech "is not allowed" in Europe? I didn't know that and if that's true...that is very troubling.
Todd,
Actually not all coutries have laws against racist and sexist speech-. But i think the majority of them have this kind of laws. They have also laws against speech denigrating people of other religions and against revisionnism. You could be condemned for declaring that the gaz chambers didn't exist during WWII.
UK seems to follow a different path, they allowed recently a meeting of islamic fanatics, who declared that Bin Laden is a great men. The police even protected this meeting against protesters. According to your point of vue that knowing who is the ennemy is better. For me, it's difficult to understand.
-------------------- Desire Rusovsky SDG Signs rue du Lac 24 1342 Le Pont Switzerland desire@sdgsigns.com http://www.sdgsigns.com Posts: 218 | From: Le Pont / Switzerland | Registered: Mar 2002
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At what point does "freedom" no longer exist? I feel that we have given up enough freedoms in the US already. I suppose the argument could be made that the Afghan people were free inasmuch as they could "freely" walk down the street.
My feeling is that when you start telling people they can't "say this", or they can't "do that", or they can't "own this", or can't "travel there...then freedom really no longer exists and you are nothing more than a puppet bouncing around on strings where your every action is determined by a single sick man or government.
Your thoughts no longer are valid. It's ironic you mention that you can't say or do certain things because of Hitler. Wasn't it Hitler that wanted to make sure everyone thought the same way, behaved the same, lived with the same goals?
Why is it necessary for governments to stifle a persons' thoughts or speech or opinions? I don't get it. And whose thoughts and opinions are so right that they force the population to adhere by them or they will be punished? If physical harm isn't involved...I don't see the point.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of socialists in our country trying to do just that. Our freedoms are only as strong as the values our elected officials possess.
I think it's great that those hoodlums were allowed to stage a protest/commemoration in (wasn't it...) England. Now their neighbors know who to watch out for and keep an eye on. Their commemoration might have been stupid in our eyes..but at least they had the freedom to state their views, sick as the majority of people may find them.
That's my rationale anyway.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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WHY DO WE HATE US? Just today. Sept 14th, the FBI arrested AMERICAN CITIZENS who trained under Osama Bin Lala and were ready to terrorize again. Arrested them right here in the USA and I think this is just the "tip of the iceberg" from what I understand.
posted
To the subject of free speech someone once said : "I may not like what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." THAT is what America is about. And: "Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety."
Jon, You've got a good point to some extent, we support the UN when it suits us, sometimes justifiably and sometimes not. When countries with abhorrent internal and external policies are able to drive UN Policy to the detriment of others, we cannot support that. When the UN passes good resolutions to police injustice and does not have the fortitude to enforce them, we must lead.
As to our responsibilities, we unfortunately have lacked consistency due to the limited vision and integrity of our leaders and the short attention span and provincialism of our populace. But we have given billions of dollars and sent hundreds of thousands of volunteer civilians and soldiers to every corner of the world to help in times of crises. Hopefully we will not lash out mindlessly in this time of crises and destroy everything we have worked so hard to become.
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Jon, I hear WInners has a sale on Asbestos Undies- better run out and buy some!!
I can't claim knowledge of the US's rationale for their failure to pay their dues. One thing I can say is that in the 15 years that I have been watching the UN, they have done nothing but sit on their hands and vacillate, or give standing ovations to despots. Maybe someone should ask the Belgian peacekeepers in Rwanda what they think of the UN- but you can only ask if you ralk to angels!!! Or ask Gen. (ret'd) Romeo Dallaire...
As for Desire/Todd's sparring re free speech, I thought the US's First Amendment was interpreted that they were able to "speak freely" only as long as someone's self-expression didn't infringe on the rights of others. Your constitution may protect the right to assemble, but to broadcast or disseminate these types of messages should be regulated. If these wackos can't meet, they can't plan, right? Maybe RICO could get invlolved.
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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I think you missed my point - and Kenneth nailed it.
What I am trying to say is that the UN has been been impotenet because the US Government hasn't been committed to working within the context of the auspices of the international community.
Maybe the UN has to change...but I think that real change will only happen if the US steps up and takes a leadership role -- changing the system from within (rather than going alone). When that happens, the responsabilities of being "the world's police officer) will be shared and the burden on the US greatly reduced.
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Thanks Jon, I just hope we can find a real Leader with a strong vision and principles 'cause we're a mess
Where'd they all go? Out of close to 300 million, is there not one willing and able to step up? I don't know about anybody else, but I've been VERY disappointed with my choices for quite a while
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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I didn't miss your point. I just don't think that the US should be looked to to supply the bulk of the UN's resources if all they get back is crap. It's the UN's way to look at them and say "my, you big country, supply us so we can stall and sit on our hands and make you look like goons and support tyrants even more!!"
The reality is that the UN is manipulated so blatantly by all of the countries looking to turn the focus away from their own hideous internal abuses it is sickening. The UN can't get off it's heinie to save people from sickening massacres and sickening rulers, but there is always time to form a committee or provide a forum dedicated to making the US and other freedom-loving countries look the fool. The UN is such a paper tiger I can't blame the American Gov't for not paying.
Kenneth said it very succinctly, and to some extent I agree with his self-recrimination. But- Who is NOT guilty of some self-serving actions? I just find that whenever the UN deals with these nutbars, stuff happens very fast or they are quick to turn on the US and say "Yeah, Uncle Sam- please defend your actions/thoughts", yet when the US or some other "Western" power makes an appeal for action or justice, they get a stick in the eye from a supposed "neutral" body, or a "resolution takes eons. Why did the UN turn a blind eye to so many heinous governments? Because head-in-sand diplomacy got in the way of reality. Maybe the US is guilty of self-serving foreign policy sometimes, but look where appealing to a supposed "security council" gets us...Saddam must howl when he sees the UN people shaking their jowls and saying "let US handle this, America; We'll show Saddam!! We'll only let him throw us out of his country 4 more times before we tell him we mean business!!"
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Actually, now that Bush and Co. are being sensible and laying the responsibility for a strong UN resolution to uphold their past (ignored) resolutions, the other players are coming aboard (even the Soudis). If there are grounds to do something, there are procedures (however tedious the French make them) to bring the world community's support to it.
There can be no reason to not lay whatever evidence we have down for the world community to come to a rational conclusion that supports action, if it is justified.
It is what needs to be done for the US to not become a "Rogue State" ourselves. A strong visionary leader should have no trouble winning support for a good cause...
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I'm pretty much in agreement with Kenneth and Steve.
I will say this, UN is irrelevent in my view and should be dumped. I mean, they have the people with the absolute worst human rights records on their human rights boards...like China for instance.
I'm a firm believer that if fear must come into play, the gov't should fear the people, not the other way around.
I don't think it has been mentioned, but part of Al-Qaieda's terrorist plans were random assasinations in homes, on golf courses, mall parking lots, stadiums, etc. I for one, like to know I at least have the option of protecting myself and my family. The UN is out to ban small arms worldwide.
I don't see the UN being relevant...and I'd bet anyone we Won't be going it alone with Saddam. He can kiss his butt goodbye.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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TWO hundred nuclear warheads have gone missing in a country suspected of selling high tech arms to Iraq, it emerged last night.
The terrifying revelation will heighten fears that Saddam Hussein could be just one step away from having all the ingredients of an atomic bomb. He has threatened terrorist attacks if Britain and America confront him. The warheads, which have vanished in the former Soviet republic of Ukraine, contain enough highly-radioactive plutonium to destroy every capital in Europe and North America several times over. An opposition leader in Ukraine, which has a long history of selling radioactive materials, said that allegations of missing warheads had been confirmed in an investigation by the chaotic country's parliament.
Both Iraq and Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaeda network are known to have tried to obtain atomic bomb components from Ukraine.
An Iraqi defector has claimed that Iraq has managed to "pirate" sophisticated German centrifuges needed to convert low quality uranium to weapons grade.
Khidir Hamza said that Iraq has developed hundreds of the machines which may have been in use since late 1998. It would take around four years of continual refining before the uranium was suitable for weapons use, meaning that Saddam could be in possession of the bomb by this Christmas.
And Saddam is no threat? In light of the (surely) bogus concession of Iraq allowing inspectors back in...lets be READY to Roll!
posted
David..... "Those who wish to ignore History will be condemed to relive it" to paraphase an old saying!
Obviously you don't remember the 1930's when germany, Italy and Japan were building war machines! The "Leauge of Nations" as well as France and England tried appeasement, hoping to placate Hitler, Moussolini and Hirohito!
Result was World War II....appeasement and weakness only encouraged them!
Woo hoo! post #100
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Damn, Si got 100! If it's bad guys getting nuclear weapons that scares you, then what about the bad ones already with them. North Korea, Pakistan, and many of the splintered countries of the old Soviet Union.
Si, I know well the history of WWII,and not much was gained by that. Poland's security was the reason Great Britain made war guarantees which inevitably brought them and us into the war. After the war, Poland, and I believe 9 other European countries were swallowed up under the Iron Curtain to untold decades of suffering and persecution. And the US got to finance the rebuilding under the Marshall plan. Some deal eh? Always a new despot we have to confront with no long term gains after we vanquish them for us. Oh well. Still sorry I missed 100.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2787 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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