posted
Seems like everyone wants to rip the US for wanting to protect our citizens against terrorists like Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hu(in)sane.
A poll taken among Canadians the other day said that 60% of Canadians believed the US is partly to blame for the terrorists attacking us on Sept 11, 2001. 15% said we were completely to blame. And only 15% said we weren't to blame at all.
So, we did something that those polled believe warranted the killing and maiming of close to 3,000 innocent men, women, and children?
What the heck is with this attitude? Isn't it the US the comes to the aid with millions of dollars when a country is devasted by some natural disaster?
Who is it that delivers food to the poor and medicine and vaccines to 3rd world countries? And who pays for all this? Nah, it couldn't be us evil tax paying Americans could it?
Who is it that stopped Adolf Hitler from spreading his Fascist hate all over the world?
Who buys the clothes made by poor people in other countries? Who provides employment opportunities for otherwise destitute people by building franchises, auto plants and the like in their barren countries?
And who protects them when they are invaded by their neighbors? Hmmmm....that would be us evil Americans.
Jeez, maybe we should let people grow their own food, develop their own medicine, and figure out a way to rebuild their own homes when a volcano buries their villages. Maybe they would consider that the "nice" thing to do?
Just venting. God (yes God) Bless America!
So, why are we the bad guys? Maybe someone can enlighten me.
If US Patriotism is too controversial, feel free to pull this.
Or how about everyone who wants posting what they LIKE about America. What makes you proud to be an American? Am I naive or just too much a simpleton to think I live in the best land in the world? Then a simpleton I'll be.
I personally would like to send a lazer guided snotball right into Saddams's eye! And by the way, Saddam shouldn't hate us.....reports say he's been using Viagra. Wonder where that came from?!!!
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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simple answer in a an old song.... "WAR"....WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR ...ABSOULTLY NOTHING"
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Everyone has a right to protect themselves from agressors - no question!
Oh and by the way how may innocents have been killed / maimed by the American/Canadian forces in Afghanistan? Well over 3000, but that's ok 'cause they don't have a vote, they've never seen an apple pie, and it didn't make it to CNN. Seems fair to me.
-------------------- Guy Hilliard Sawdust and Noise CNC Routing / Laser Cutting and Engraving Brampton, Ont. Canada Posts: 164 | From: Brampton. Ont. Canada | Registered: Dec 2001
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> Have you seen the new can, but check it out before you buy one! Pepsi has a > new patriotic can coming out with pictures of the Empire State Bldg. and > the > Pledge of Allegiance on them. But Pepsi forgot two little words on the > pledge, "Under God." Pepsi said they did not want to offend anyone. > > If this is true then we do not want to offend anyone at the Pepsi corporate > office. If we do not buy any Pepsi product then they will not receive any > of our monies. Our money after all - does have the words "Under God" on > it.
I realize that a lot of things that you say is true. The U.S. does supply the world with many things. A lot of the time, it is taken for granted or just generally unappreciated.
I also see a government trying to assert undue influence in many arenas where it does not belong. I see a government that has an unending backing and support of Isreal (not that it is a bad thing) which really riles a bunch of people around the world.
What I think it really boils down to is the "Haves" aversus the "Have Nots". It is so easy to hate and despise people who have more of what you want, less of what you don't, and are a whole lot less wanting than you ever have a hope to be.
It isn't hard to understand a little of the frustration that some people must feel. Can you imagine a life where becoming a martyr is the only means you might have of achieving fame and notariety? Where worrying about where your next meal is coming from? To live an existance that is wrought with despair and futility? Can you imagine living in absolute poverty with no means of escape?
I am truly thankful for the life I live. I am thankful that I don't have to live my life that way.
I am thankful from my beautiful and supporting wife to our fuzzy little dog (Bert), two cats (Shirley and Sophie... the Silly Sisters), and a bird (Sydney) to my partner, with whom I have had an incredible 11-1/2 year ride with, to our awesome little teal painted house with the purple front door to our cool little car (that still needs to be pinstriped... right, Honey?).
We are able to vote, express our opinions, go where we want when we want, free to work in the vocation of our choice, free to seek higher education, and, Best of all, are able to worship and express our Love for our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ because we are granted those rights. Just as you are. With no fear of reprisals.
Not everyone in the world can say that...
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6454 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Hi there Todd. I think that these anti-American feelings start out more as resentment, then grow into real hate as these people see "perceived" injustices and interferance in their domestic affairs.Classic case in point: Iran. The United States government, for years, supported the Shah, because he could and did supply them with crude oil. The Shah ran one of the most oppressive regimes, and his people suffered greatly while he was in power. During the last few years of his regime, Americans were seen to be complicite and supportive of this oppressive dictator.
Now, put yourself into their shoes for a moment. If you lived under those conditions, wouldn't you become angry and resentfull toward anyone who you saw to be supportive of such an oppressive government? American Foreign Policy isn't perfect...not by a long shot. I know that you probably subscribe to the notion of: "My Country, Right or Wrong", but isn't it healthy to question whether or not your country has in fact, wronged others? Big business has a whole lot of influence on how your government treats other countrys. What may be in the best interests of Standard Oil, Microsoft, Pfizer, Union Carbide, and a host of other Corporations, may NOT be in the best interests of foreign citizens of sovreign states where they conduct business. Remember those "Nike Sweatshops"? How would you feel if one of your kids was "indentured" to work in one of those places? Resentfull? Perhaps that resentment might even smolder into downright hatred, if someone came along to fan that spark.
Sometimes, to understand the "why", you have to put yourself into their place, or situation. When you walk that mile in their shoes, you may come to a better understanding of how these feelings develop.
If we lived in a perfect world, Americans wouldn't offend anyone....but so far, we arn't quite there yet.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote: A poll taken among Canadians the other day said that 60% of Canadians believed the US is partly to blame for the terrorists attacking us on Sept 11, 2001. 15% said we were completely to blame. And only 15% said we weren't to blame at all.
So, we did something that those polled believe warranted the killing and maiming of close to 3,000 innocent men, women, and children?
That's a fairly MAJOR leap in thinking there isn't it??
hate is hate no matter who's pointing it in whatever direction
-------------------- Compulsive, Neurotic, Anti-social and Paranoid ... but basically Happy Posts: 2677 | From: Rochester, NY, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am a proud Canadian -- and,like most,I view the American people as friends and neighbours. I also happen to believe that American foreign policy did contribute to the tragic and horrific events of 9/11.
The trouble is that we live in a complex world, where the causes can't see their effects.
We should all be wary of falling into the trap of trying to apply simplistic answers to complex issues. People who insist on doing so tend to become fervent nationalists and/or religious fanatics...you know - the kind of people who fly planes into buildings or commit genocide...The kind of people who value simple "us and them" polarity over plurality and human rights.
Be critical or skeptical of relying on strictly American news media (which IMHO tends to deliver fairly polarized world news/foreign policy reporting and editorial opinion). Try tuning into BBC World News or surfing to cbc.ca - or even watching Al Jazeera if you can pick it up on satellite.
One final thought: fear is the root of all hatred...Better to engage others and listen than insulate yourself and isolate them. Try using the internet to find a penpal in the middle east somewhere and hear their opinions first hand. None of us should feel so removed from one another or our respective governments to think that we can't influence change. Without hope (for all), what is the point?
So sorry for the "lecture" - just my point of view.
[ September 10, 2002, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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First I want to apologize for my stupid canadian fellows who really think this!! Second you have to know that there's a strong socialist, anti-capitalist and anti-semitic mentallity among the journalists and the union who control these newspapers. This is also the same amount of people who elected the stupid Jean Chretien twice!!!! Remember also (a couple hundred years ago...) that the canadians never fought for their freedom, we preferred to lick the king's ass instead of moving south, for freedom, or going back to France. I am usually a proud canadian but when I see stuff like this I wich I had the balls to switch country. I am actually an american but I have canadian balls!!!
Sorry again....
-------------------- Pierre Tardif P. Tardif Inc. 1006 boul. PIE-XI sud Val-Belair QC. Canada G3K 1L2 418-847-4089 pierre@ptardif.com Posts: 800 | From: Quebec city | Registered: Aug 2002
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The poll didn't ask "were the terrorist acts justified?".
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Ok, looks like so far...I'm the fire hydrant on this. Saw the poll on CNN, Fox News Network, and I think it was ABC. They broadcast this info for 2 days straight. I didn't catch the polling source, but they did state it.
So, there were daycare centers at the WTC. So how is it these kids were "partly to blame" and worthy targets for a terrorist bombing, along with window washers, cops, firemen, janitors, college students?
I hear a lot about the influence of "oil" in our policymaking...as if it were a bad thing. I wonder what I would hear if we quit importing oil altogether and relied on our own supply. What? Gas prices at $10 a gallon? What? Keep your thermostat set at 45 in February? What? Can't buy a pickup anymore?
Sure we make deals with people that turn out bad. They help us with things that are important to our country in return for our money, and assurances they will act in a respectable manner. They don't always keep their promises...some people are like that. And if they really turn out to be bad...then we find ourselves their enemies.
Someone mentioned that we killed at least as many innocents in Afghanistan during our campaign against the Taliban. True. The difference is this...we didn't target them specifically, and we dropped them aid in the form of food and medicine. We specifically try to avoid the killing of innocents. It is not our "intent" to harm innocent people.
I understand (in theory-as I thankfully haven't experienced it personally) the plight of these people. We try to aid them as much as we can with our abundance - far more than other developed countries.
I don't think it would be a good thing to "stay out" of people's business....I mean, yeah, we could just not interfere at all with anything and let people work out their own problems in respect to radical governments, starvation, human rights. We're darned if we do and darned if we don't.
Not saying we're perfect, cause we're not. But at least we put forth an effort.
Regarding jealousies: Sure, I'd like my neighbors Cadillac. But I'm not going to hate him for having the ingenuity, motivation, and smarts allowing him to attain it. And I'm certainly not going to kill him on account of it.
We're dealing with radicals here. The Taliban doesn't want peace. They want power by intimidation. The bulk of Afghani's feel they are far better off than when the Taliban was in power. They at least have the freedom to shave their beards and listen to music...which was banned before.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6736 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I see several things here. Let me clarify a little first- I am not the most PC; I have strong conservative political and moral beliefs, and I am not afraid to say it.
THis "have" vs. "have-not" is a fancy phrase for the reality of jealousy. Low self-esteem is the root cause of the vast percentage of human conflict, I think. Yes, in a totally objective assessment you could say "the USA brought this on itself" but that is so cynical I refuse to mouth the words. Todd is right- you Americans (and to a lesser extent many other countries, i.e. Canada, and some others) donate hundreds of millions to benefit other countries that YOU DON'T HAVE TO GIVE. So the feeling that big business contributes to this is crapola- they are just jealous. Imagine if countries like Canada or the US, or the UK said "from now on, NO MORE immigration". We'd be crucified!! Or how about as Todd said- "no more aid- dig yourselves out". The UN would become a firing squad. If we are so concerned with our "big business influence" and all of these other insults, why can't we rebut with the same feeling- That these countries foster hate and jealousy to distract their own citizens from the $400 million jets they buy or the 18 homes. Just because the US helped rebuild the WORLD after WWII and helped out Kuwait, caused the USSR to implode (one of history's cruelest regimes), gives out free medicine and doctor care, AND military support, you brought it on yourselves?
So why can Iraq or these other regimes get sway with it? These countries have the nerve to sit so smugly on TV and speak about how they welcome UN inspectors. Why can't we start shooting from the hip and stand up and say- "liar!!"? For some unknown reason, people would rather feel sorry for the "underdog" or those "poor repressed people" than believe that they are cruel, heartless exploiters, while ignoring reality. I don't see an ounce of religion in people like bin Laden, just greed and arrogance. He is doing none of this to free repressed people- if he was, he would be building hospitals and businesses to employ people and give them back some self-respect.
Before some of you think I'm TOTALLY naive, I do realize that some big business is pretty pushy. Oh well, deal with it. Nobody put a gun to these countries' heads and said "Let us open McDonald's- we know where your family lives". Maybe if we dug deeper, some of these other countries' polititcians were taking some money to look the other way- So that makes the USA a bad guy? So GOd forbid that of so many politicians Bush (and Blair) finally has a spine and says with no diplomatic hogwash "Saddam is next". FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT!!! If this had been the Kremlin or Berlin or many other countries, they flames would still be burning when the commandoes hit back.
I am just sick to death of hearing that you brought it on yourselves, or the economic policies and big biz caused it. If big biz was the root, then why didn't bin Laden hijack 30 planes and fly them into Nike, Martha Stewart and Union Carbide plants? Or all of the coal mines in China? Or North Sea oil rigs? Or Saudi oil wells?
I feel strongly about this, because I have seen first-hand how people can be manipulated by the media and politicians (I lived through 5 years of Quebec seperatists and a referendum). So I tell you, all Americans, do not feel any recrimination for going after those who did this horrible gutless act. THEY brought IT on themselves. MAybe there have been civilian deaths in Afghanistan, but eventually the numbers may be told as to how many the Taliban killed for taking off their veil...
-------------------- Steve Burke Cascades Inc NS Canada
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you Posts: 359 | From: NS Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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Another way of saying what Rick said is my government is not my country. Our Canadian friends views on this are very insightful. Americans better start getting their news from sources other than the pablum that is being fed us my CNN and the rest. A true patriot stands up and decries his country's wrongful actions. This war has morphed from getting Osama, to Al Queida, to the Taliban and now again Iraq, and still no justice for 9-11 has been meted out.
Doesn't it say something that a lot of the military are against this latest war plan and yet the "chickenhawks" are all for it.
No, there is no justification for what happened on 9-11, but plenty of explanation as to why we are hated. The Founders warned us about such entangling alliances.
posted
Hi all, let an European voice his feelings about that matter.
I appreciate a lot a things from the US people. This bullboard is one among them (even if it's a kanuck who engendered it). I couldn't imagine something similar in continental Europe. Here we are mostly competitors, not fellow letterheads. I owe a lot to USA for other matters also.
BUT, a coin has always two sides. Some people see only your bad side. Americans are generally unable to understand that their worldview and their way of doing things are only good for them. Other peoples have differents histories and backbgrounds and ways of thinking. The imperialistic way of the US people hurts a lot of other peoples. Like one of us sign: Proud to be an American! You are a proud people, so you lack the necessary humility in your dealings with others peoples.
Don't forget that bin Laden was trained by Americans. And after that, the USA dropped the Afghan people creating resentment among them. In a way (and in terrible one), and I thinks it's the meaning of the Canadian poll, you just reaped that your governement and you security agencies sowed. If the Bush administration attack Iraq you could be sure that a great global clamor would rise against the USA. Very few coutries would side with your people if you do that. And in a way USA is also behind Saddam!
Could I say that: USA is a little like a teenager rejecting the authority of his parents. USA is mostly a child of Europe and also of Africa, and he refuses to sollicit counsel of them. We have a far longer history and experience than you. And I think you need also to learn from us. Hope I hurt nobody, but I think you needed to hear a pretty moderate opinion from Europe. Imagine thaht could be a radical opinion !!!
With my gratitude for all I learned and received from you US men and women!
-------------------- Desire Rusovsky SDG Signs rue du Lac 24 1342 Le Pont Switzerland desire@sdgsigns.com http://www.sdgsigns.com Posts: 218 | From: Le Pont / Switzerland | Registered: Mar 2002
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I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT I'M READING!!! U.S.A. is the only country in the world that has be founded on FREEDOM base with no regards of who you are, what language you speak, neither the color of your skin and this should be enough to admire it instead of tring to find a reason!! They fought for freedom!!! ....They ended wars that would have change the face of the world and would have eliminate millions of peoples that would have wanted to be FREE!!!! We should admire them instead of blaming them!! I'm totally on your side Todd! U.S.A. is the one we should thanked for having the freedom of speech we have today. DO YOU THINK YOU COULD POST YOUR IDEAS HERE TODAY IF HITLER WAS THE PRESIDENT??? MMMM?
LIVE FREE OR DIE!
-------------------- Pierre Tardif P. Tardif Inc. 1006 boul. PIE-XI sud Val-Belair QC. Canada G3K 1L2 418-847-4089 pierre@ptardif.com Posts: 800 | From: Quebec city | Registered: Aug 2002
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American foreign policy often contributes to feelings of resentment and anger abroad, heck even here Being a contributing cause does not justify any unlimited retribution.
Jealousy and "have and have not" feelings are only a small factor in a very complicated issue of which I doubt any of us truly have a very good understanding of. (I do recommend the BBC as an interesting alternative view also, not to mention in-depth study of regional world history)
We supported both Iran and Iraq against each other, with a policy goal of keeping them fighting with each other indefinitely so neither would gain supremacy. When we lost interest, we also lost control and Saddam is now on our "enemy" list.
In Afganistan we supported the rebals against the Soviets until they were no longer a threat. When the Soviets pulled out, we lost interest leaving the anarchic area ripe for the Taliban.
In Israel the Palistinians have lost all hope and are willing to commit attrocities because they were driven from their homes and have been living in refugee camps for 40 years with promises made and broken.
And what of Africa, ruled by many like Saddam but with less money to threaten outside their borders? Millions have been murdered or starved by corrupt governments, have we really cared or noticed?
Our government hasn't behaved admirably at home or abroad in every case, but have we as citizens really made the effort to make it better or even fully understand the world outside our borders?
If "The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance," we haven't been paying anything in quite a while. America was a shining beacon of liberty and freedom to the rest of the world for over 200 years. We came to the aid of the weak and down-trodden, stood up to evil, and had bigger dreams as a nation than our collective bank accounts. We have become in the last 10 self-centered, closed-minded, over indulgent, and arrogant. Let us set again a goal to be above reproach and an ideal for the rest of the world to emulate, not hate.
-------------------- Kenneth Sandlin Author of "Wide Format Printing: An Introduction and Buyer's Guide" PO Box 1295 St. Augustine, FL 32085 kennethsandlin@msn.com http://wfprinting.tripod.com Posts: 116 | From: Jacksonville, FL | Registered: May 2002
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I won't become a part of the "Discussion" on this. But here are a few more questions.
Why do you think the terrorist chose to leave a clearly marked trail through Canada? Why did the terrorist have significant cells in every major European country? Why were the majority of 9/11 highjackers easily traced as Saudi nationals? Why is every muslin in the world having their religion defined by a small radical faction?
4 questions 1 answer. That is the best weapon the terrorist have to cause division, mistrust, and hatred between the peoples of the world.
posted
I'm not certain we lack the humility to deal with other people. For instance, our church brought in about 15 Sudanese over the past 2 years. These people were being butchered for their religious beliefs. They were able to immigrate to the US and are being cared for by people who have empathy for their plight. Look at Mexico.
Even the terrorists seemed to enjoy our hospitality.
By stating the Canadian poll, I should have indicated that I personally consider Canadians our friends. No doubt about it. Hope I didn' come of Anti-Canadian. I just (still) don't understand the results of the polls.
I don't think it's good policy to stand by idly and allow terror and the threat of future terror to be exacted, unanswered.
I feel confident that the US would support Canada if they had a similar situation. My thinking is that the fear that the terrorists wanted to instill has been partly successful inasmuch as several countries don't want to go "too far" in retalliating against immenent terror threats for fear of being targeted themselves.
Thank you Steve/Pierre for your support.
I like the point Steve made....instead of spending millions supporting terror cells that accomplish nothing but death...why not put that money into building a community that actually HELPS their own people instead of an atmosphere where they bring military consequence to their population? Hospitals, business investment and the like would be far more beneficial to their plight.
It's all about twisted radical (so-called) religious fanaticsm.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Interesting topic, but it has nothing to do with our business here in Letterville. At best, this type of so called poll, and the discussion that it generates, is designed to divide and sell newspapers.
The events of Sept. 11 are on all our minds these days. We know you want to talk about your feelings and we are going to bend the rules to try and accomadate you. Please choose your comments carefully. Letterville is a community where we wear our Letterhead hats first. Any comments or personal attacks that attempt to divide us along religious and/or political opinions have no place here on the BB and may be removed.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
My admiration for you grows with just about every post you write.
Thanks to you for "bending the rules"...and kudos (and thanks) to everyone else for sharing your often differing opinions respectfully.
Wouldn't it be great if leaders of nations and "the people in the street" could learn to do the same?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I believe tomorrow (September 11th.) should be one of quiet reflection and prayers for the families of the many people who lost there lives on this tragic day.
i choose not to post at all tomorrow.
[ September 10, 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
posted
I have read and considered all of your opinions carefully. I believe that Linda has come closest to the very root of the matter. As a nation "under God" America has risen to a nation of unequaled power, safety and freedom. The founders of your nation were men of great faith and strong convictions. As a nation who removes God from their schools and endorses laws and actions that stand in contrast to God's revealed will for us, America seems to have lost some of that blessing and protection that has made her great. The same problem applies to Canada as well as my native country Switzerland. It would be wise for all of us to look inwards and re-consider the foundations on which our nations were built.
I cried on September 11, 2001 and I probably will tomorrow. Most likely this statement comes closer to the real canadian reaction than what some folks may have told you about certian a poll.
posted
Thank you Steve...for your tolerance about the topic regarding this tradgedy.
I embrace all peace loving peoples everywhere and am simply frustrated with how evil people seem to rise to power and are somehow able to cast doubt on their true intentions.
Most of us would probably have a "live and let live" philosophy, not wanting to harm or instigate or provoke angry reactions from anyone.
I'm thankful for our young men and women that put themselves in harm's way to protect the freedoms we enjoy without having to place ourselves in jeopardy.
Thank you Lotti and Linda.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I hope this doesnt sound disrepectful, but I cant understand why the western world feels the need to force our culture and ideas and way of life on the rest of the world. And why does most of the trouble and war come down to religious beliefs. Frank Zappa wrote a great song when he penned "Dumb all over".
Todd I am happy that your church has helped these sudanese peoples, but I will assume that they are christian, and would they have had the same opportunity offered to them if they were muslim?
Are we always right and the rest of the world wrong? I dont think so myself.
I love our american neighbors, my father happens to be one, and I hate what happened to the peoples that lost their lives on 9/11, and especially all the firefighters and emergency services people that died doing there job. I am also a firefighter and would have done the same as what they did, we tend to run into what most people are running away from without much regard for our own personal safety, although we are trained that our own safety comes first above that who we are helping. It just rarely will happen that way.
I hope we can all have a safe day tomorrow. Grab your family and loved ones and hold them close.
Thanks Steve for allowing this discussion, I think it shows a bit about how we all have different ideas as to what our lives mean to us. Long live letterville, and the diverse peoples that come here to share our experiences. I feel I have 3 families, my biological family, my fire dept. family, and those who chose to post here in letterville.
-------------------- Tim Rieck Signs Halfmoon Bay, BC Posts: 736 | From: Halfmoon Bay, BC, Canada | Registered: Sep 2000
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Thanks for your reply Tim...no disrespect taken.
Our church took in these people because of their need. Yes they were Christian...but they would have taken in anyone that was persecuted.
The mission field is the mission field regardless. These people had never seen running water, toilets, stoves, or anything we take for granted. They had to be taught how to turn a faucet on...literally. Taught how to drive, use a shower and the whole nine yards.
The point is this...people in need are taken care of by American (and I'm sure Canadian) generosities. Love, money, goods freely given by our government and citizens out of sincere concern and heartfelt love.
You should have seen these young men when they were given some new clothes! Grinning from ear to ear with gratitude. They must have felt like they were scooped up from hell and dropped off in heaven.
One Sudan man has been with us for 10 years. He hasn't seen his wife and kids in all that time. He had to flee in the night for his life because he was a Christian and he got wind that "they" were coming to butcher him that night. His family was largely spared. He was lucky enough to be rejoined with his family here in the states recently.
Our church gives to many charities that help people in countries like this. Sure we spread the Gospel along the way. This is our calling. But we don't force anyone to believe anything nor threaten or kill anyone over our beliefs. The folks that receive our aid are very grateful....it's the fanatical twisted oppressors that bring death and destruction upon themselves.
We don't look to kill anyone for kicks...as do the terrorists. We try to protect our countries' citizens from harm, and do what we feel is just to protect our freedoms here at home.
That may include the removal of blood thirsty dictators who kill their women for showing their faces in public.... who also plan and plot acts of terror against our innocent citizenry.
As long as evil exists, evil MUST be challenged and contained.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Pierre what about the Natives? Have they gained freedom with the coming of the whites? An the slavery of the black people?
I'm sorry if I sound a little hard but I'm french-speaking and I have some difficulties to be more gentle in my wordings.
Just a question: Something amaze me here: I see no Afro-americans! May be some are here but without photo?? Are they no Afr- americans in the sign busines??? Blessing to you all (Yes I'm also a follower of Jesus)
-------------------- Desire Rusovsky SDG Signs rue du Lac 24 1342 Le Pont Switzerland desire@sdgsigns.com http://www.sdgsigns.com Posts: 218 | From: Le Pont / Switzerland | Registered: Mar 2002
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Let's keep this thread positive and refrain from pointing fingers and bringing up old arguments. Instead of fixing the blame, why not look at fixing the problem?
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
i think Americans are amongst the most generous people on the planet. well thats my experience of them anyway. i heard the ambassador of saudi arabia telling the world that America was the chief cause of the trouble in the middle east and pointed to the poverty in palestine as an example. saudi arabia is amonst the richest countries in the world yet it does not lift a finger to help its comrades in palestine. America on the other hand nationally ant as individual Americans gives generously in that respect. most of the hate for America is politically generated. most people in these middle eastern countries are just like the rest of us. they just want to make an honest buck in order to live decent lives.
-------------------- rembrandt
Grahame Belton Belton Signs Maldon, Essex England beltonsigns@callnetuk.com Posts: 27 | From: Maldon, Essex England | Registered: May 2000
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I dont beleive that the US is to blame for the mid east misery, it doesn't take a scholar to see those people will fight amongst each other never mind the rest of the world. Desire, if you think Europe can give us advice on this matter then please explain how you have terror attacks continuoulsy to this day in Europe!
These people are evil! plain and simple and will not stop at anyone or anycause to kill, mame and destroy lives for whatever the flavor of the moment.
Again, it does not take a world scholar to know right from wrong. We all know right from wrong, it is just up to us to either acknowledge it or ignore it.
Does the US government make the right decisions all the time? Heck no!
Did we deserve what happened on 9-11? Heck no!!!!!!
If you even for the fraction of a moment beleive so then you are no better than the hatefull ones who caused this evil act.
This was a BIG wake up call for this country, and I'm afraid we still have not woken up fully yet. We have strayed far from what had made us great, and I dont beleive this is over for a long shot.
This is what happens when as a country you turn your back on the one you built the basis of your country on - God - Yes I said the " G " word, and rest assured there where a whole lot of people on 9-11 calling out his name that had never mentioned it in years.
Well i'm sure they had mentioned it, but only in vain and not in praise. lol
Play time is over folks, class is now back in session.
Ok I'm done who wants the soapbox next? lol
[ September 11, 2002, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Bob Rochon: Desire, if you think Europe can give us advice on this matter then please explain how you have terror attacks continuoulsy to this day in Europe!
These people are evil! plain and simple and will not stop at anyone or anycause to kill, mame and destroy lives for whatever the flavor of the moment.
This was a BIG wake up call for this country, and I'm afraid we still have not woken up fully yet. We have strayed far from what had made us great, and I dont beleive this is over for a long shot.
This is what happens when as a country you turn your back on the one you built the basis of your country on - God - Yes I said the " G " word, and rest assured there where a whole lot of people on 9-11 calling out his name that had never mentioned it in years.
Yes I agree with you and I take the soap box for a while. I was not thinking on this issue when speaking of searching advice, bur more generally. I think we Europeans are more able to understand Middle Eastern mentality than you. I make translations for a US church agency, the MCC (Mennonite Central Comitee), but I think they are really naive when dealing with Muslims. And I see this same naivete in some of your governement declarations about muslim countries.Truth has really not the same meaning for Westerners tha for Middle-Easterners. In it's basic roots Islam is a violent religion and a religion of hate. Gladly most of Muslims dislike this component of their religion.
I totally agree with you, the problem of the USA, and of my country too, is we added the letter "l" to god . Now it's the greed for money which motivate a lot of the actions of our countries.
We need to go back and to retake what we loose.
BUT after looking at the TV news, I want to say I regret my insensivity. AND I wish you, US fellow letterheads and people, peace and consolation in this tragic anniversary.
-------------------- Desire Rusovsky SDG Signs rue du Lac 24 1342 Le Pont Switzerland desire@sdgsigns.com http://www.sdgsigns.com Posts: 218 | From: Le Pont / Switzerland | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I had to turn the channel last night.... to lighten my burden.
I was watching one of the many 911 Remembrance specials...it was on ABC I believe. They had filmed firemen that were simply talking about the loss of their family members who were also in the fire department profession.
One older Firemen went to the towers to help rescue people. His son, also a fireman, accompanied him. The father was able to make it out just seconds before the tower collapsed. The son did not.
The father wrung his hands around a white handkerchief as he told his story. The grief and despair which overwhelmed him seemed to carve deep sagging lines across his face.
He grappled in vain to understand why his son had died. They never recovered his body. To not see, to have not been provided visual evidence, to not be able to touch, or hold, or kiss his son one last time. It was more than he could bear to comprehend. His inner turmoil was unrelenting. His sadness seemed a huge weight upon his shoulders.
Why did he...a mature, older man live...while his son was taken? And for what? Because of what? To lose a child must be a horrific thing. A nightmare.
It seems odd that I couldn't bear to watch this man's personal pain for 5 minutes...a pain that he must endure for a lifetime. It was too heartwrenching. Too frustrating.
His son was apparently vaporized in the collapse. Not a single trace. Not an item of clothing. Not a ring, or a driver's license or a lock of hair.
To know there was laughter and rejoicing among certain people for every death tallied is evidence of evil. An evil of the most intense kind. I am certain that Satan himself danced with delight at the suffering. He doesn't care that it was us...any suffering would do.
There are protests all over Europe against our President and our war on terror. This from a population that is now young enough not to have a personal remembrance of the lives lost and sacrifices made by Americans to free them from the jaws of Adolf Hitler. Yet they live freely and enjoy the results of our efforts...of our alliance.
I wonder if France had been attacked with the same ferocity....with the same loss of innocent life, would they begin to understand certain acts are right and wrong....and certain basic principles are black and white.
America is not perfect....but I believe she's the best place this world has to offer.
It's a complex world out there. Freedom loving nations are being put at risk by outside forces. We cannot cross the Delaware to ensure our freedom...we must cross oceans. And we are just and right to exact a heavy consequence to those that threaten our civilian population.
A father should not have to lose his son to an act of terror. His son should not die because evil men, who do not know his heart, hate his existence. Evil must be confronted and beaten down. Justice must be served.
posted
Well said Todd, and Grahame. Today is going to be a confusing, and quiet day for many.
I think there are vast differences between innocent lives lost in war, and those lost in an unprovoked terror attack. I was not only shocked and horrified one year ago, but I was forced into a sudden realization that our freedom, and our way of life is more valuable than the most precious stone, or metals in the universe. While the United States is far from perfect, and our politics are less than desirable at times, we have choices, freedoms, and opportunities that our forefathers struggled fought, and died to create for us. Many of our fathers, grandfathers, mothers, grandmothers, uncles, sons, aunts, daughters, friends, neighbors, continue to devote their lives to protect these freedoms, rights, and values.
The USA is a place where diversity is honored, and men women and children may live together in peace regardless of their ethnicity, political and religious beliefs. People have the choice to prosper, or dwell. Our citizens have and continue to strive toward peace and equality. Though we still suffer our own problems, and are far from perfect, we are standing on an amazing foundation, and advance more everyday. As someone stated in this forum, we are still "Teenagers" in the face of many other countries, but we are maturing and growing every day.
We no doubt step on toes with regard to foreign policy, but we do not laugh and dance in the streets when thousands of innocent women and children are killed in cowardly acts of terrorism. We do not celebrate at the idea of innocent people starving, and being massacred by their own governments. We do not smile when a child is brainwashed into becoming a martyr by strapping a bomb to his or her body, and decimating hundreds of innocent people because of political and religious indifference. We do not enjoy War. We do not wish to lose more American, Canadian, British, or European, Asian, African, or Middle Eastern citizens in war or otherwise.
We do however have an immediate threat to all of us. These fanatics DO wish to see you and I dead. They DO celebrate in the streets at the word of innocent Americans being killed. They DO strap bombs to children. They DO starve their own people. They DO punish their own people for speaking their minds, striving for equality, and attempting to prosper. They DO NOT want to resolve anything through peace. I am not stereotyping Muslims, or implying that this is how all Middle Eastern Eastern people is, but the fanatical terror groups must be eliminated. If anyone has a realistic peaceful solution, I'm sure our nation would implement it, but as far as I can see, these terrorists do not speak peace.
What would you do if your neighbor held his family hostage, starved them, beat them, and began throwing bombs at your home?
Why do they hate us? I wish I truly knew that answer.
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Thank you Jeff, Grahame, and Bob...I appreciate your heartfelt thoughts. Desire, I understand the points you are trying to make and appreciate your concern as well.
posted
From OUR Declaration of Independence... That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
and just a bit more(talking about King George III)...
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands...
Sounds alot like someone else we are trying to stop from oppressing.
GOD BLESS AMERICA...And the rest of our brethren around the world.
-------------------- John Cordova Gitano Design Studio Albuquerque, NM Posts: 268 | From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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