posted
Bruce, one last suggestion before you go to the trouble of court--- check the records in either your county or your deadb---er, customer's county if different from your's and see if there are unsatisfied judgements against this person or company. If there is/are, then a lien might put you last in line to collect. Ask your lawyer on that.
bill preston
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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Let other people with more valuable time give their talents away.... before long they'll be getting all the "free" work.
Keep us posted will you? This might be another great experiment that will be a valuable lesson for people here to refer to in the event it happens to them.
posted
You know what is making me angry? Just read what the responses here are. Funny, almost every single one of you people are assuming that this client is a deadbeat, a loser, a scam artist, a thief, etc. Almost everyone of you are assuming that client is in the wrong. Why? Just because Bruce Brickman says so? Huh? Excuse me?
How can any of you people assume this? Maybe Bruce missed a big deadline. Maybe they just didn't like his work and were completely unsatisfied with the results. Maybe Bruce misrepresented himself thus making him the scam artist. Maybe they pulled the plug on the project and Bruce arbitrarily popped this dollar figure on them and they counter-offered and Bruce doesn't feel it is enough.
You know, this is exactly the type of crap that happens when you go head long into a project with NO CONTRACT. Huh. Imagine that. Ruffled feathers and hurt feelings because no one was on the same page. Man, I hate it when that happens.
I am so glad that all of you have had perfect relationships with every contractor who worked on your house, a mechanic who performed work on your car, every butcher, every baker, every candlestick maker...
Oh, and I am glad to see that everyone of you guys has paid every one of their bills in full with no questions asked ever. It warms my heart that none of you ever withheld a freaking penny because you were never, ever, ever unhappy with anything you had done for you. I bet you all left big honking tips for every waiter or waitress that ever served you, too.
I am so proud that each and every one of you has performed their work to the utmost zenith of professionalism and never had a cluster of a humdinger ruin your week. It is refreshing to see that every client loved every piece of your work and never asked for anything to be redone or asked for a refund or even (gasp!) withheld any amount of money because they were unhappy.
Aren't you glad that no one came on an international website and cast dispersions about any of you. Then again, why would they? You all would have had contracts. I learned that lesson a long time ago.
So, why is it that the first suggestions in these situations seems be to kick the guy's ass, sue him, steal his sign back, key his car, and just generally commit mayhem to make his life suck? OK... let me amend that to include people of the female persuasion so I don't get flamed for being sexist.
On the issues of court or not, New York court system favors the loser. The winner is left little room to actually claim any of the award without a lengthy process. Maybe if things were like they are in Michigan, I would have a different opinion.
There are two entities that truly know what happened here. Bruce and the client. Unfortunately, each has their own perspective and slant on what happened. No one else here knows.
I do have empathy for Bruce's situation. Honest. However, he has to accept that he have some responsibility in what happened here. We all learn these lessons and, unfortunately, the best ones hurt the worst. That is to make sure you don't forget them. Ever.
Learn your lesson here, Bruce Brickman!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Come on Bruce, you know we defend our own. We are right and everyone else is always wrong. Letterheads don't stiff each other,that's beneath us.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
You're right, his name is Bruce. He's probably just a hapless loser.
<-- Putting on flame retardent torching goggles
Bruce Bowers, I do agree with you... it's easy to leave out a few of the details that might incriminate ourselves when posting a rant on here. Kinda like that post I re-read on here a while back where the dude was trashing his boss, and everyone was like, "Yeah, your boss sucks..." then his boss showed up in the thread and basically ripped original poster's story apart. Then all the 'heads starting backtracking and getting on HER side.. hehehe...
That all said, if it was me, Bruce Brickman... I'd nicely try to work out a deal with them to get as much as I could, chalk it up to a learning experience and move on. Document it all and your accountant can use it as a deduction when doing your taxes. I'm too busy to take the time to go to small claims court, which you may or may not win.. or if you do, may or may not be able to collect...
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Jon makes a good point about the "boss sucks" story.
But that said, I still think that taking the matter to small claims court is the right course of action.
Here's why. It works.
Yeah, yeah.....I know. Then you have to collect which is a whole new battle. But, it doesn't have to be if you understand how to work within the system. Going to court is no quick fix. Its designed that way on purpose.
The rules vary from state to state. Back in the late 80's, we had to take a client to court for non-payment. We won. When he failed to pay up as ordered by the magistrate, we put a lien on the property. In 2005, his attorney called and wanted to know what it would take to get the lien removed. Simple answer was 100% of the money owed plus interest and court costs. The attorney countered with half that amount. We told him to call us when he decided to get serious. A week later we had our check with everything we required including the interest.
So, yeah..... it took several years but we did get paid. We also learned some very valuable lessons in the process which IMHO were worth the headaches.
Going through the process of going after the money we "earned" pointed out several weaknesses in our management of the business that we would never had seen otherwise. It helped us to be better prepared.
Now lets look at the flip-side. Lets assume that Brinkman is like the fella that Jon reminded us of. Lets assume that the client is actually in the right and wins in court. I think the embarrassment that Brinkman would experience would be a good punishment. The client has a bit of satisfaction and doesn't have to pay a dime. Seems a couple hours of his time would be worth saving $1000.00. And, Brinkman will have learned a very valuable lesson -- get it in writing.
posted
I don’t think there is anything wrong with flaming a “deadbeat” customer. Perhaps the customer wasn’t in the wrong. But really, who cares?! As long as the customer in question remains anonymous, I don’t think there is any harm in it. Hell, it could be a hypothetical/fictitious customer for all I care. The thing that separates us from them and the reason why nine times out of ten we side with a fellow letterhead is because we all share one thing in common. We have all been burned before. It sucks. We learn from it. It feels great to rant about it afterwards. I don’t think any one is being serious when they say “send the mob after them” or “burn down their house”. It’s all in good fun. It’s away to relieve the stress. We all wish that we would have a quick comeback when a customer says something stupid, or a great way to get back at someone for being a jerk… but we usually don’t, so we get on here to rant about it with our FRIENDS and peers because it sure beats going out doing something destructive or stupid. And I know that we all probably at one point in time have given advice that we ourselves in same situation might not have done. I will say this though, if a customer did stiff us you can be sure that we wouldn’t quit until we get paid in full. Mom would track this guy down to the ends of the earth to get what we rightfully earned. She doesn’t seem to have one problem with taking someone to court, not only to get paid, but to teach the person a lesson. A sign shop is no different then any other business.
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
years ago i was intimidated of going to court. I avoided collecting on more than a few bad checks because I said it wasn't worth it.
Then a really large amount on a bad check came along. Then I got stiffed on payment too.I had an attorney friend who guided me along to get the lien and submit the bad check claim.
The first second into this I suddenly realized it was well worth it. The intimidation was just a mental block. You do not need a degree to do this. Essentially, just write a statement, sign it and thats about it.
After that it was a pleasure going to the court office to file a claim. Its just another tool for doing business. I never lost a case. I also discovered that the courts hate it when they see a working man get stiffed.
It is worth it to persue bad accounts. Not just in the money but in the self esteem and the reputation. Yes, word does get around that you will pursue your bills and the deadbeats will be much fewer afterwards.
Its not as it seems. Its not complicated.
Did you do the work? Did you get paid? Why didn't you pay the guy? Did you use the product even though you felt it wasn't right? You did?.. Pay him..
Stop payment on a check? Did you issue this check? Did you issue the stop payment? Why? Did you receive anything of value? You did? Let me see your bank statement. Oh,, you didn't have enough money in your account to pay anyway. Pay him two times face value plus court costs.
Thats about all it takes. Its worth it, it is not all that hard.
As for getting paid. Usually they just pay up right there. However, sometimes you get a hard case. Just petition the court again just like the first time. They do it all for you. The sheriff goes over and takes a few things of value and auctions them off. You get some money he gets to watch his stuff walk away. All so easy. And, when its done you get to smile. The deadbeats gets to feel lower than a terd in an outhouse.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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"Did you have a contract? No? Hmmmmmmmm... You in a heap of poo, boy, 'cause it is your word against theirs!"
New York doesn't offer much help in the line of collection. If they offered that kind of support, I have no doubt my opinion about court would be different.
Joe, I have NO doubt Jane would track down a non-paying customer to the ends of the Earth! However, she would also be armed with a C-O-N-T-R-A-C-T!
Personally, the thought of that woman tracking me down for some cash scare the bejeeezus out of me...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
I think I just peed myself... Hahahahahahahaha!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
HAHAHA those are hilarious Glenn. I love the Sniper Kitten.
Bruce, yeah she keeps her paperwork in line. I wonder. You keep bring up the “your word against his argument”. But is the evidence of the completed project (sign) and the fact that you never got paid… again should be easy to prove, right? Shouldn’t that be evidence enough? I mean we don’t sign contracts every time we buy something at the grocery store right? I really don’t know. I could be wrong. Does anyone here know? I would ask a lawyer for his or her advice, if anything to know the process just in case it happens again. We talk about getting stiffed and losing money as a learning experience, but trying to get that money could be considered a learning experience as well. And if you win, even better!
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Mr Bowers, I don't know you and agree with some of your points of view but this is what I wrote which was a very simple request for information on collecting payments due. "customer won't pay... OK I didn't get a contract but I was paid for two previous invoices that showed hourly fees and work discriptions. So how do I got about filing a lein or a design professional lein. They offered $1000.00 to settle and they owe over $3300.00. So, to fill this out more I was called in to do the complete interior design from logo to signs, custom floors, murals etc, everything. I have experience with this AND I am not a traditional interior designer and they knew this. They wanted an artist. Conflict arose, things went sour, and they want to part as do I and now there is conflict on payment. Hence I want to see if there is anything I can do to collect.
Thanks in advance!!!
["Aren't you glad that no one came on an international website and cast dispersions about any of you."]
Mr Bower, can you find a person or companies name here other than mine and those I said thank you too?
I came on this site for support and information about collecting. Mr Bower I can understand you are really angry but please use some discrimination between me and your target for projecting your anger. You do not know me nor the whole situation. So please use someone else for your venting.
"he has to accept that he have some responsibility in what happened here."
Mr Bower I'm not asking your opinion of my integrity. Seeking information from fellow professionals, contacting lawyers and taking action for what I believe is a violation spells accountability to me! This is a challenging thing for me to do and this has cost me in ways you will never know!
"Learn your lesson here, Bruce Brickman!"
And this all in bold caps wow! This is a group of professional artists I simply asked a question.
Again, OK your angry! Please aim it elsewhere!
For those of you (including Mr Bowers)who have given jokes, their experience and knowledge as a means of support to a fellow professional I thank you very much! It has penetrated deeply. Maybe this site isn't for me. I would be disappointed but will accept that if it is the case. I am a newbie to signs but not to art and design and will persevere in sign making out of my love for art and design and the joy I get out of it even with it's headaches and heartbreaks I've done it so long it's like an arm or leg for me.
Again thanks to all who have responded not only to this thread but for help with my previous questions as well.
posted
It isn't the fact the Brickman didn't get paid. That fact is obvious. What I am talking about is the amount. Prove that was the amount quoted. Go ahead. Prove it.
The following is meant in totally humorous manner:
Brickman says "Your Honor, ma'am... I swear I quoted them 3,300 bucks..."
Customers says "No, Judge Judy, Mr. Brickman said it wasn't going to cost us anymore than a grand. Besides, we didn't like the color of his shirt."
Judge Judy says, "Let me see the contract!"
Brickman says, "I don't have one, your Honor ma'am."
Judge Judy says, "What?!?!?! Didn't your mother raise you to have more sense than God granted the common turnip?!?! You're stupid!!!"
Brickman says, "But your Honor ma'am... We did three other jobs the same way!"
Judge Judy says, "What?!?!?! That makes makes you three times as stupid!!!"
Brickman says, "But your Honor ma'am... They paid me for that work."
Judge Judy says, "That makes makes you lucky but still three times as stupid!!!"
Brickman says, "I have the receipts right here."
Judge Judy says, "Oh, you had time and sense to make out a receipt but not a contract, huh? Well, that just might elevate you to the level of a cucumber..."
Customer says, "What do we have to do to make a Brickman salad?"
Brickman says, "But your Honor ma'am... I don't have to listen to this..."
Customer says, "Hey, at least i didn't call you a fruit!"
Brickman says, "Your Honor Judge Judy ma'am... I must protest most vigorously..."
Judge Judy says, "Enough! I can't stand to hear any more of this!"
Brickman says, "But your Honor ma'am..."
Judge Judy says, "Enough! What part of "I can't stand to hear any more of this" did you not understand?!"
Brickman says, "But your Honor ma'am..."
Judge Judy says, "What am I speaking here... chinese?"
Byrd says, "No, Judge!"
Brickman says, "No, your Honor ma'am, Chinese is what that Bowers dude is always trying to get people to buy him for lunch."
Judge Judy says, "Oh, yes, that Bowers dude.. Handsome and talented fellow he is. He does excellent script lettering."
Byrd says, "Yes he does, Judge!"
Judge Judy says, "Well, I did hear that he was some sort of hapless loser now."
Byrd says, "Yes he is, Judge!"
Customer says, "Hey, not to interrupt you but I am getting paid for this right?"
Judge Judy says, "You'll get nothing and like it if you keep it up!"
Byrd says, "That seems a bit harsh, Judge..."
Judge Judy says, "Watch it Buddy! You are within gavel range!"
Byrd says, "Yes, Judge!"
Brickman says "Well, your Honor, ma'am... I still swear I quoted them 3,300 bucks for this job..."
Judge Judy says, "No contract, no money! Forget it! It ain't going to happen! Not in this lifetime!"
Brickman says, "Your Honor Judge Judy ma'am... I must really protest most vigorously..."
Judge Judy says, "Too bad! Enough! All this food talk has made me hungry! Byrd, let's break for lunch!"
Byrd says, "Good idea, Judge! I'm buying"
Judge Judy says, "Damn right you are!"
Brickman says, "But your Honor ma'am..."
Judge Judy says, "Are you still here?!?!? Go home!"
So remember, kids! Don't take candy from strangers and always have a contract!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Mr. Brickman; (don't cha just love all this formalness? lol)...
Don't sweat it man, whether you decide to make a move from letterville is your decision, and in the same context as your request of Mr. Bowers, please don't make it ours, which it shouldn't be in the first place, that's something the individual has to act upon themselves...but to answer your question will garner you many a varied opinion, isn't that what you wanted? Some different perspectives? Different angles so to speak? I'm just saying, and considering fact you're a newcomer, per say...give it some thought, this is probably the best room out there, no one here cares enough about you yet to lie, steal or misalign you in anyway at this moment w/malice, all that comes w/time...but if you must cut your visit here short, vias con deos...it been fine known' ya............
Now, I'm not excited about Chinese tonite, how about Mexican? Ummmmmmm, some homemade corn meal pork tamales, lite green dipping sauce, OH YEAH...eat like vikings my people, for in the morrow, we must continue on path of life...
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Mr. Brickman, before you start feeling too bad, just keep it mind that this is a topic that many have strong opinions on... so therefore it is the subject of doing work without contracts and what to do later when you don't get paid that is being passionately discussed... more in a overall general way than against you personally...
Don't take your toys and go home quite yet, not all subjects are discussed this vehemently. You have some very nice work posted on your website by the way.
Good luck whichever way you decide to go, and keep us posted how it turns out.
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Hey, Mr. Brickman, I NEVER questioned your integrity. Never once. I get into enough trouble for what I say without you adding to it! LOL! Just so you all know, I wrote the previous bit before Mr. Brickman replied.
quote: "He has to accept that he have some responsibility in what happened here."
This isn't a questioning of your integrity. Responsibility and integrity are two separate issues and not congruent to each by themselves.
YOU started a project of some size with NO contract. YOU did this. That does make YOU partly responsible. It certainly isn't my fault. No one can take advantage of you unless you let them and you, IMO, opened the door wide open.
Looking to file a lien with no contract in place is like locking the barn after your cow ran away. No offense is intended but good luck with that. I don't see what bearing any previous business dealings will have on the matter at hand, because, while you got paid, that was then and this is now.
So, you can get as PO'd at me as want. I am not the one who did it. I am not the one out the money. You, Mr. Brickman, did this to yourself. It isn't my fault you don't like the answers you got, are going to get, or may hereafter receive.
I learned the same lesson the hard way. The difference between us is, dollar amounts aside, is that I didn't look to absolve myself of the responsibility of the deal and blame someone else for it.
quote:Learn your lesson here, Bruce Brickman!
Bold, yes... all caps? I don't think so. Take another look.
What upset me last night was all the other posters that posted, not you. You need to read better and develop better comprehension, son! LOL! Some people here were steering you wrong. I didn't like it. I said so.
Personally, I think you could have gotten hosed a whole lot worse. I hope you come to a satisfactory and equitable solution to the situation at hand. I hope you both part on good terms but I doubt that you will.
I could say more but why bother? Your mind is set and I am not going to try and change it. You are an incredibly talented artist but you need to take the blinders off concerning business. Talent will get you work and good business sense will get you paid. It is that simple, Mr Brickman.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Glenn, before they took the MSG out, Chinese food would fill much longer. Now, people are hungry again in 30 minutes. I don't think the new sushi-crylics and tofu-cyanates stop hunger any longer and the landfills are getting inundated with Chinese take-out boxes. Forget the FDA, we need long-lived industry specific MSG.
[ March 28, 2008, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: David Harding ]
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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There have been some very good points made here. I do not agree with some to just walk away when someone won't pay. However, the chances of winning here are slim. Why? NO CONTRACT. As hilarious as Bower's skit is, it's probably not that far off. Most judges don't like to see business people get stiffed for payment. But they also expect the business person to have the common sense to have a contract. Without it, it is your word against theirs. And people lie in court. I think you're fighting an uphill battle. I wish you luck & I hope you keep us aprised of what is going on with this issue. But also realize that you are partly in the wrong here also because you didn't get a contract. If your money is important enough to go to court for, why wasn't it important enough for you to get a contract for? (If you get Judge Judy, expect this question)
Regardless of the outcome of this particular disagreement, you have gotten something out of this, it just may not be the dead presidents you want. But I'll be willing to bet it will be a loooong time before you decide to skip a contract again. We all have to learn to get a contract. Luckily that lesson didn't cost me $3300.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Hey Bruce, I just finished my deep breathing exercises and my meditation. I feel so at peace.Okay,The cool thing about a diverse bunch of folks talking bout relevant stuff to this one industry with so many facets and angles of approach is (even though it's not always gay or merry) you can take what you will and file it or discard it. I do it with my mouse but there are probably other ways.In the short while I've been here I've filed a bunch of valuable info and discarded a bunch of crap.Sometimes the crap discarded was my own but not always. Cheers.
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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i guess with all the vast legal advice being posted here noone has heard of courts honoring verbal contracts,implied contracts,established patterns,or even basic knowledge of contract law, or ever filed a lien based on those...they exist and they happen....every situation is different. If anyone thinks for one minute a verbal contract wont be or cant be honored in court,esp if you have emails to prove intent and prior business dealings to establish intent,they are very very sadly mistaken Bottom line,ask a lawyer,which noone here is,good intentions aside....and remember this,youre in oregon,new york has sh*t to do with it,minnesota has sh*t to do with it and an imaginary scenario with judge judy has less to do with it and reality than a hangnail....real court doesnt operate like that screeching wildebeast. Consult someone who deals with laws in oregon and find out where you stand.......you can ask all you want here and get general guidelines,but mostly what youre gonna get on a post like this is venting without very much practicality. If you cant/dont want to start with an attorney,start by calling your local clerk of courts office and they can steer you in the right direction.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Bruce brickman, what you are gettin here, opinion-wise, is typical of Lettervile. Varying opinions from people from all over the place. Laws vary from state to state, so one persons experience may vary greatly from another who live two states away.
Frome what I have read, there is more than likely soem pride and hurt feelings involved in this matter. Going to court may or may not solve things in the manner that you wish.
What would I do??? I would put aside any and all personal feelings, take the $1,000 they offered and move on...chaulk it up as a lesson learned.
I would also join Frank for Mexican
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
I learned the same lesson the hard way. The difference between us is, dollar amounts aside, is that I didn't look to absolve myself of the responsibility of the deal and blame someone else for it. [/QB]
Education is never cheap, wether you get it in the field or in the classroom.
I got an extra T-shirt on this one, who wants one?
[ March 29, 2008, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wow! Being fairly new to forums I certainly have gotten a crash course here. I really appreciate EVERYBODIES opinion yes even those I don't agree with or attitudes I don't want to agree with, so what! Yup, I came into this forum real naive and have learned alot. Excuse me if I've offended anybody Bruce Bower included. I was upset and took things to personal I see. I never knew what a can of worms were about to open out of a simple question. I am grateful to remember my appreciation of being american and the freedoms that come with that. In light of that I welcome anyone to say whatever they want. And yes as I opened my post with I didn't have a contract and regardless of this current experience I won't be black and white about it in the future either thats my choice and I'm not asking for agreement on that. I certainly get burnt by insisting on seeing the goodness of others and have much to learn in this area to be perfect. So I will refine my persoanl approach in this area and learn from it. Life goes on though as Frank said and I'm learning more than ever!
Again I apologize if I've offended anyone here.
I hope I will be welcomed at a future meet to learn and paint with you all. I definately could go for a margarita at this point!
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Just a little aside to this thread. There are two premises in the laws of almost every state in the union. "You may not steal a man's/woman's labor" and "You may not lien a man's/woman's 'tools of his/her trade'". His/her truck, building, etc. yes. This usually means that you will almost always get the full amount of the labor listed in a lawsuit. You may have the costs of the materials reduced to pre-markup value. It also means that the sued party will not loose the tools of his trade, should he be a fellow tradesman (Painter-auto mechanic-barber-etc.) in a lien situation. These are usually limited to the "Hand tools", so you may end up with a nice barbers chair to auction. So, always list the labor involved in any sign or other contract. Make it what it normally is, the highest cost of the product you sell. Lettering, t-shirt, monument sign or whatever.
-------------------- William "Irish" Holohan Resting...Read "Between Jobs." Marlboro, MA 01752 email: firemap1@aol.com Posts: 1110 | From: Marlboro, MA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bruce Brickman and I are going out for drinks. We talked yesterday and thought margaritas and Mexican would be just swell.
He will do just fine!
edited because I can't type right today!
[ March 30, 2008, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
There was once a time, long before lettering, Letterheads, and running a sign business That I was just another guy working in a Factory for other people. The World Of Business, along with all it's "rules" and required skills were all a mystery to me. According to my accountants, they still are.
My sign skills were not much better. I had a few books and a burning desire to master the skills required and just maybe have a business of my own someday. There were few sign shops and nobody was willing to give a new guy any secrets. I never even seen another guy sling a brush until my first Letterhead Meet in 1983.
I still recall every second of that meet. My insecurities were so bad that I just wanted to run away. Everywhere I looked, one of my heros from the trade magazines, were doing their thing. My Portfollio looked so bad I had Barb go hide it in our Motel Room.
Then I met Mark & Jeannie Klein from AM Design in Miami. They ran a "famous" sign shop that was grossing over 100 grand a year! Their work was fabulous! I wondered what the hell I was doing fooling myself that I, Steve Shortreed, could ever be good enough to rub shoulders with Letterheads of this caliber.
We somehow ended up having dinner with Mark and Jeannie. I confessed my feelings of insecurity and feeling stupid about trying to join in an industry I knew nothing about. Contracts were the least of my worries. I was doing work for free just because it was fun, and by golly, people liked me.
Mark never lectured me. In fact, Jeannie made Barb go dig out my Portfolio to show them. I still believe they were lying through their teeth, but they told me I had a job at their shop anytime. My whole World changed right there! If one of these real Letterheads said I could do this, who was I to argue? I went home with a new determination to learn and succeed.
So what's this nice story got to do with this post?
Well. It illustrates why Letterheads is so special to me personally. We all need to know our lives count for something. Mark and Jeannie had the power to point out all my flaws and make me feel lower than whale droppings. Instead they made a decision to embrace a newcomer and inspire him to reach for the stars. That's what a Family does! We don't put our kids failures up on the fridge and point out how dunb they are. We try to fix problems....not the blame.
My little story also points out why Letterville is run in the manner it is. Attending all those live meets over so many years effects the way you see things. That's why we urge you all to get out to meets and get involved. The tone of conversations on this Board are often much more friendly when the participants have worked side by side at Letterhead functions.
Anymore old Letterheads out there with similar experiences? How were you treated when you actually got up enough nerve to ask the "dumb" question?
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
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