posted
customer won't pay... OK I didn't get a contract but I was paid for two previous invoices that showed hourly fees and work discriptions. So how do I got about filing a lein or a design professional lein. They offered $1000.00 to settle and they owe over $3300.00. So, to fill this out more I was called in to do the complete interior design from logo to signs, custom floors, murals etc, everything. I have experience with this AND I am not a traditional interior designer and they knew this. They wanted an artist. Conflict arose, things went sour, and they want to part as do I and now there is conflict on payment. Hence I want to see if there is anything I can do to collect. Thanks in advance!!!
[ March 27, 2008, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Brickman ]
posted
Without a contract, neither side is on firm ground. I would offer to split the difference and call it a tough lesson learned.
No contract, no work. Everything needs to be spelled out as to who does what and who pays what and who is responsible for what... the list goes on.
Guido needs to sit this one out. Hahahahahaha!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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The reality is that without everything in writing, you lose.
That said, the only thing I can suggest is that you dig up every piece of paper you can find - receipts, notes, any and every written communication they've ever sent you (paper and e-mail) and compile a time-line of some sort. Once you have as much documentation as you can find, its time to head toward the small claims court. Its very possible that they unintentionally admit to the magistrate their culpability.
posted
Bruce, I don't have any advice on your matter, but...your work on your website is awesome(overused word, i know) others will steer you right re: contracts, etc. just wanted to say that your work is GREAT!
John
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
John, thanks I wasn't expecting that and got a few chills and warmth in my heart. I wish at times I would have gotten into signs as a kid when it was all painting. Thank you so much.
posted
Your artwork does look absolutely great Bruce. I don't know why anyone would want to treat you so poorly. I think the advice about getting a paper trail together and taking it to small claims court is your best bet. A side from getting a written contract, remember to always get a 1/2 deposit for any work you do. Especially any work over $300 (which is most everything). I have never been shorted from anyone who has paid a 1\2 deposit at the start.
-------------------- Robert Yunque Shabob Signs 2021 Butler Rd. New Market, AL 35761 Posts: 8 | From: New Market, Al | Registered: Jan 2001
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-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I was awarded a judgement in small claims.Then it was My responsibility to collect.I never was able to get what was owed to me.Good luck and I echo what has been said about the quality of your work Bruce.
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
You don't always need a contract. Jane has been able to collect payment due to us in full through small claims court. It costs the customer payment in full and court costs if the judge takes your side. If you get a Judge Judy, tell her she's cute, answer the questions quickly without embellishment unless asked and don't argue. If you have any e-mail correspondence that will help. Remember it's us against them.
Around here you can also file a mechanic's lein which means that if the owner tries to use the property as collateral to borrow against -- your lein has to be satisfied first.
If all else fails call Guido.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
filing this and filing that and going to small claims, why waste time and money. get an attorney and ask his advice. chalk this up as a lesson and move on. this is why we sometimes have become inconsiderate in business. Asking for money up front offends some people BUT what do you do. the ones in the past that have screwed me over were outstanding citizens and "church going people" as so I was told at the beginning of the job. Yep I should have gotten 1000% down after that statement AND he was an attorney
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I agree with all that was said above, particularly about seeing a lawyer to discuss options. You may otherwise spend months jumping thru assorted hoops, going nowhere.
Aside from that, you have two options....Try to reach a compromise and learn from the experience......or call "Midnight Sign Reclamation Service". I think they're listed in the same category with Vinnie and Guido.
Good luck to you.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
Thank you all so much for your input it's great to have support! Now I get who Vinnie & Guido are but will not use them on this. Also, thank you all for your appreciation of my artwork it is perfect timing for moving forward regardless of this current project. Thanks Again!
When will you all stop advising people to beat the crap out of people or go steal back the signs if they don't pay? That is about the most useless advise I hear. Good plan... let's advise people looking for help to go break the law.
Not to be harsh here, but Bruce really screwed himself here. No contract means it is a "He said / She said" situation. Yup, good luck with that. He screwed up. Learn from it and move on!
I was never one to back down from a good fight, especially when I knew I was right and I was going to win because I had my ducks in a row. I also learned when it was better just to accept the offer and move on. Bruce has some ducks and geese and swans and who knows what else blue sky don't-mean-diddly-squat in a row.
Sometimes you have to cut your losses and move on. The best lessons I ever learned seemed to be the ones that hurt the most. Trust me, I made some really colosslly stupid errors and terrific lapses of judgement and trusted people I shouldn't have and got screwed for doing it. I made mental notes of where I went wrong and made sure I didn't make the same mistake twice... even though there were a couple times I did... hahahahahahaha! I deserved to get it in the pooper on those.
If I followed the advice some of you would give out, I would be in freaking jail or gotten my ass kicked because there is always someone a bit smarter, shrewder, nastier, and tougher.
Seeing a lawyer? Holy cripes, we are talking three thousand bucks (so Bruce claims) here! WTF?!?! That is suitable for small claims court, if one really wants to persue that course of action. That's all. Are you really willing to spend all that money to collect what you feel is due? Not a good invest of money or time. A good lawyer will eat up that 3K in a heart beat. Trust me. Trust me. Trust me. Been there... got the poor quality t-shirt.
Good luck collecting your money, too. If your client doesn't want to pay you, there is little you can do about it. Please spare me all the "I got mine" stories. For every one person that gets their due, there are fifty that are still waiting for the money. Oh wait, the check must be in the mail.
Bruce, contact these people once more and offer to split the difference. If they refuse, ask that they forward the funds offered in a cashier's check. Learn your lesson. Contracts! There is a reason they were invented. That is money well spent at a lawyer.
Well, back to work. I need to put my soapbox away.
BTW... Bruce, your art is absolutely incredible. It blows me away. Especially the dog art.
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Bruce - don't kill him and don't steal your sign back ( I know these are humorous responses)....
But don't discount small claims court!!! It's easy, and it's almost fun!!
Simply do this:
First- document all correspondence, highlighting all references as to how you were to get paid, amounts you would be paid, and what you would be paid for. To me - and probably to a judge - that's as good as a contract or almost as good.
Second- Take some digital photos of the work you did; including inside signs, logo designs you created that HAVE been utilized, printed in any form (biz cards, letterhead, invoices, etc)... as well as exterior signs and all graphics in general at their locale.
Third - and this is crucial - sit down and create a brief (judges hate long-winded spiels and will cut you off if you ramble) timeline indicating how and when the job was inititiated, the time frame it was to be done in, and general design themes discussed.
Follow this up with a timeline of how you proceeded to execute those goals and include any correspondence going on as the project developed.
Finish up with a brief summary of how the client decided to change his goals, cop an attitude and make up lies AFTER the job was finished AND ACCEPTED and USED by your client.
Make mention of general copyright protection laws for artists work.
Read through this printed out, prepared dissertation directly to the judge .... so you won't miss anything due to nervousness.
YOU'RE DONE.....tell the Judge what you are owed and you'll probably win the lions share.
I did this once and trust me: if you come prepared as I have outlined, chances are good your client won't .... and the judge will almost always side with the person that shows they have their ducks-in-a-row instead of someone that just shows up and spouts off.
Also - the obvious - don't show up to court looking like you just fell off a barstool. Replace your general paint marred work attire with a casual outfit... no need to three piece suit yourself up as this looks too staged.
It won't take but a few hours of your time. Ask yourself; is the additional $2,500 he's trying to screw you out of NOT worth a few hours of prep and a $35 or so Small Claims Court filing fee? It would be worth it to me.
Don't be a wuss.....go for the small claims.... if you don't have the guts and motivation to do this small amount of legwork for yourself then I doubt you will ever have the motivation to have your customers sign a work order in the future - which is what you should have done in this case.
If at that point you lose the case....BIG DEAL.... you're only out the amount of your filing fee .
This guys isn't going to do business with you again anyway, and at least you'll have the satisfaction of calling him on his deceit and taking him AWAY from his work to answer to a judge. There's great satisfaction in that alone.
posted
What Todd said. Yes, it is an annoyance to have to go to court and file papers and stand there next to the yahoo that is trying to screw you out of $. But here's the thing...the satisfaction you feel when the judge listens and then says "Did you hire this person to do work? Did she do the work you asked her to do? ....Pay the woman!" is worth it!
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
After you win the case, they may go ahead and pay up. If not, around here, you have to file an "execution", which has nothing to do with the Vinnie & Guido Baseball Bat Collection Agency. It allows the attachment of certain assets for satisfaction of the debt, although someone determined not to pay can still make it very difficult to collect.
Edited to add: As the others stated, you do great work!
[ March 27, 2008, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: David Harding ]
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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At least in my state/county.... when you ARE awarded the judgment...the magistrate tells the other guy he has X amount of days to pay.... and if he doesn't pay by then, they will place a garnishment on your wages.... so it's a "win-win" proposition if you "win."
The person that I won against didn't pay me right away....had 30 days as I recall, and come about the 28th day I gave him a phone call and said "Well, I haven't received your check as dictated by the courts - if it's not in my mailbox in 2 days - when it is due - I WILL call the court and proceed to have your wages garnished."
Just told him matter-of-fact. Got my check on the final due-date.
posted
Boy I am glad I posted this experience for the support in this situation but also to stay focused on creating more work and income by others appreciation of my work and just art itself. Thank you all!!!
Had a similar situation quite some years ago on a truck lettering job, all paint,--went to small claims court, the other person never showed up,I won the judgement by default.
Collection was another matter. What I didn't know was that this person had a string of judgements against him in at least three other counties. Had I slapped a mechanic's lien say on his vehicle and had the sheriff take the vehicle, then the proceeds from the sale of said vehicle would have gone to satisfy other judgements in chronological order. In other words, instead of being first, I would have been last.
Considering the amount of money this person owed around, the sale of the vehicle would not have come close to taking care of my judgement.
I found out later that this bird makes a career of pulling this stuff, and that he learned it from his father who also made a career of ignoring judgements.
Far as I know this bird is still pulling this routine, and getting away with it.
And these people are allowed to breed, vote, etc. Talk about playing the system.
bill preston
BTW, and I will get flak for this, I have never in over 40 yearsof sign work, worked with anything other than a handshake--no contracts-- and that was the only time I've been burned. Lucky, maybe.
[ March 27, 2008, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Bill - not to side track from Bruce's dilemma.. but I would have probably gotten the mechanics lien, even if it didn't personally help me out....as it would have helped out the others with the added satisfaction of relieving this fellow minus his vehicle.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
True enough, Todd---but it would have been throwing good money after bad, in that there is a fee to have the sheriff seize the vehicle---out of my pocket.
Satisfaction, yes---but not at more expense on top of what was already unpaid.
bill preston
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
small claims court around here is bullsh*t. if you win they are given 30 days to pay, if they dont pay then you can go for the longer and stetched out version where you file to have wages garnished or liens placed on property which is another pain in the ass step to take. if your owed money be stern and firm or chalk it up.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
Before I did anything else I'd negotiate on my own.They offered $1K ask for $3K and hopefully it will fall towards your favor...and let them know you do have the option of small claims court.
Lets say you do have a contract and the customer still refuses to pay. Is this really any different when it comes time to collect from someone who outright either refuses to pay for whatever reason or doesnt have the funds?
I realize more each time I read a post of this sort, that by getting 50% down at least your getting something.
Thats probably why I'm glad I don't do this kind of work full time.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Once again, as Bowers suggested...I think that as the rain falls in Oregon,(I live in Newport on the coast) let this storm become a ongoing profit for you in settling for 1/2 and then in the future use this project as a sales room for future clients to view your talents. It becomes a reality as a part of your portfolio.
Just a suggestion...(I never give advice)
Jack
[ March 27, 2008, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: jack wills ]
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Also I’ve heard people say that it’s tuff to ask for payment up front… and it is…. But you could try what we have implemented here. If it’s a first time customer, simply tell them that you need a down payment/full payment upfront. Then tell them that it is company policy. (makes it sound like corporate is setting the rules ) If they complain about that, which believe it or not hardly ever happens, simply be truthful and say that you have to do it for every new customer, it’s nothing personal but if we have to do it with one person we have to do it with everyone. Most people understand that.
We also don’t let new customers walk out the door with a sign until they pay for the sign. We used to get excuses like: “I left my check book at home”, or “I don’t have that much cash on me”, but now that we got the credit card swiper, there is really no excuse. So if they can’t for whatever reason pay, then the sign doesn’t leave the building. I mean Wal-Mart doesn’t let you walk off with a product and then send you a bill in the mail. Once the customer is an established client and has proved that they pay right away, then you can handle them a different way if you want.
I think at least asking for a down payment is better then nothing. At least you are getting something for your work. And in most cases if a customer has invested some money in the project you know that it is unlikely that they go off and shop around.
For web design we do progress payments. I can see this working for other large jobs too. First we collect a down payment which covers the sketching and consultation process, then we ask for a second payment to begin the building process, and finally the last payment when the job is done. Then the site goes live. Depending on the size of the job there could be even more progress payments. I have yet to hear a customer complain about doing it this way, in fact some really like it. Plus it helps the project move along faster when money is a factor.
I think it was a lot harder for us to learn to ask for money up front then it was for the customers to understand why. Most customers will understand, and if they don’t you can bet they are going to be pains in the a$$ anyway.
[ March 27, 2008, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Just like some of you said, Always get 1/2 of the total price of the job as a deposit. Just like Bruce Bowers said "Without a contract, neither side is on firm ground."
I had to learn that one the hard way many years ago. If they don't want to pay 1/2 down then you have to figure these people might be hard to deal with down the line.
posted
I am going through this with 2 ex-customers right now, one is almost 1 year out and the other is 180 days. I have been billing them monthly with 18%apr interest and a $20.00 a month non payment fee. Terms of interest are listed on the invoices. I've just had my Lawyer send them a letter of intent to collect. In the letter he states that if the customer does not submit payment within 7 days the customer agrees that he is liable for the amount, interest, fees and costs involved for collecting the invoice. Basically setting the guy up for the court costs to collect the money. The lawyer charges $20.00 for his secretary to type up the letter. This usallsy shakes the money loose.
One of them called back and asked if he paid in 60 days if I would drop all interest and fees, he's the one thats almost a year out already, I said if you show up with a $4000.00 check today I'll drop the charges. Haven't seen him, next step court I guess, he's a real estate developer, need I say more. I did get half down at the start of the job. I've been lucky over my 18 years in business with only about 5 business's stiffing me. I do think if the money doesn't show up from the developer he'll have a monument sign without any center.
-------------------- Silver Creek Signworks Dick Bohrer Two Harbors, MN Posts: 236 | From: Two Harbors, MN USA | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Just a side note, I did as Mr.Preston suggested and had the punk's vehicle repossessed and sold at auction.I did this twice and it cost me $50 a pop plus my time and aggravation.I finally let it go but it was good sport for a while till I had better things to do.
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I hate to sound vindictive... but seriously people... people that don't pay their bills need to experience the pain that the people owed those bills experience.
Coddling these people and letting it slide does nothing but create new victims as they continue to perpetrate their game.
The next person they screw might be a good friend or relative.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
An attorney does not earn money, by making a "suggestion" and that word will rarely be found in a legal document. An attorney is legal counsel,paid to give advice!
Not me.
At least not at me bloomin' church anyways.
Darcy,that makes sense,having better things to do.
I have done my share of making life miserable for a$$wipes who done did me wrong and now my time is more valuable.
Jack
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
OK, I got a call from a lawyer and am taking his advice. First is the formal request for payment that describes a worse case situation for them. See how they respond. Them basically up the anty from there. I will have to go to small claims first before a lien is possible.
Thanks everyone!
[ March 27, 2008, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Brickman ]
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) If they complain about that, which believe it or not hardly ever happens, simply be truthful and say that you have to do it for every new customer, it’s nothing personal but if we have to do it with one person we have to do it with everyone. Most people understand that. 
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