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I'm looking for some help. I have a lighted sign that I would like to apply translusent vinyl to the inside of the clear plasic serface and then spray paint over it, on the inside, with a white spraypaint. Will this work? What will the paint do to the vinyl? Do I have to apply a protective coat over the vinyl? and will you still be able to "see through" the vinyl when painted? Thanks for your help. It's great to have a place to go that will help! Dita Mallon
-------------------- Dita Mallon Dita's Graphics and Signs, Inc. Sumner, Ia Posts: 119 | From: Sumner, Iowa | Registered: Aug 2002
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You didn't say what paint you were using, so I really can't say with any certainty.
We use #801 white Lacryl paint (for plastic), and it works fine. Expecially using black vinyl (rather than spraying black) works really well for us.
I would be concerned that using a can of spray paint would cause the face to be "blotchy" or not even, or worse, the paint is more opaque than anything.
I would suggest a small test piece with the materials you plan on using on the face, just to make sure it works.
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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Plastic faces were 90% of our work at my previous job.
Our normal procedure was to run two sets of vinyl. (1) set for the second (inside) surface and (1) set to go on the first surface (outside). The inside of the faces were then coated (sprayed ) out with white Lacryl Acrylic spraylat. The reason for the 1st surface vinyl is to allow the sign better readability during non-lighted hours of usage.
You might want to swing over to www.spraylay.com for some tech notes.
You can also run by a local sign company that makes plastic faces and they'll probably just give you enough product to do your job. They're "usually" pretty nice folks. Please note that I said "usually".
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I think you would be loosing too much of the translucent effect. Mark is right, a test piece would help. And by the way, "Welcome to Letterville"
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Can I ask why you want to do this? If your looking for tranluscent white white vinyl, they make 60% and 30% diffuser vinyl (3M, Avery, and Arlon) and it's more consistant than painting. Maybe I don't understand the question correctly Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stan - Double layers of vinyl seems like a lot of extra work / expense to me. About the only reason we put vinyl 2nd surface is to protect it from vandalism, or it has other colors being painted behind it.
Rick - Good thinking, if it will work. If it is larger than 48" or pan formed, then it wouldn't work, but face specs wern't specified. I just assumed that it was pan formed...
[ August 14, 2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Mark M. Kottwitz ]
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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Hey Mark You can get diffsser in 60" , I think it must be flat cuz they are thinking of using vinyl in the first place, I guess we'll find out soon enough. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thanks to all who have replied. I didn't think I would get such a fast response. It great to know I have a place to go for help. Now back to my question and I'll be more specific this time. It is a Pan faced sign 4'x6'. I was going to use Recrama Translucent vinyl and then use Spraylat Lacryl Paint. I want to do all the lettering in vinyl and then come back over it with a white Paint all of this on the inside of the sign. I will certainly do a test piece. But does the vinyl need a protective coating over it before I spray it? If anyone has a better way please let me know. Thanks from the midwest Dita
-------------------- Dita Mallon Dita's Graphics and Signs, Inc. Sumner, Ia Posts: 119 | From: Sumner, Iowa | Registered: Aug 2002
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In the past I have found that no matter how good (high performance) the vinyl is, it will always have a certain amount of shrinkage that will allow light to bleed around the edges of the copy which looks terrible when illuminated. Placing translucent vinyl on the front of "Opal" perspex or acryllic, which eventually yellows off from the UV is a cheapo way of doing illuminated signs which I find is best left to the vinyl jockeys. Why not use your plotter to cut reversed masks and work your colors properly IE black first etc and spray all the colors and give your customers a sign that you can safely tell them will outlast your competitors by at least ten to one staying brighter and cleaner. I get my share of this work by referring clients to check out such and such a sign in contrast to my competitors work which has been up a much shorter time. I simply refuse to do cheap illuminateds and it pays off.
-------------------- Drane Signs Sunshine Coast Nambour, Qld. dranesigns@bigpond.com Downunder "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer" Posts: 965 | From: Nambour, Qld. Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree with David..vinyl shrinks..paint doesn't. Don't mix them on backlit faces.
Use either all paint (you can use masks) or all vinyl.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
They have no choice but to paint it all or paint trans white and Vinyl on the front.
Though paint can yellow as well, at least in my limited experience, but whatever.
You can't do surface diffuser because its a pan face so vinyl on vinyl is out on the first surface. You can't paint behind the vinyl cuz: the vinyl will shrink in time and expose light at the edges so DO NOT apply vinyl subsurface and backspray on an exterior backlit sign.
If it was flat, the cabinet return goes in enough (and it should), shrinkage is never a problem with a diffuser film, (I have seen some film yellow as well as some translucent fiber panels and cheap poly. carb.) and then you can use a tranlucent film on the face only, (if you use film on film on the back it have nasty little lines around the copy and will fail in time) Hope this helps, Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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As in all things discussed here opinions are a dime a dozen.
The fact (my opinion)is that you're intended direction is the correct method. Second surface vinyl with interior coating IS the industry standard akin to spray the entire inside graphics and all using masks.
As for any vinyl shrinkage...there's twenty five years of these signs both old and new around this area manufactured by my previous company and I have never even heard the notion of the vinyl shrinking under the coating. In fact we have hotel/motel signs in the yard now that went with new names that were built with the vinyl/spray combo and are nearly 16 years old and there's no "outline" around the vinyl due to shrinkage. If there "would be" any shrinkage it would only give way to see the white backup product....as the product will "not" tear away with the vinyl.
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Just a thought, I remember at a 3M function some years ago saying they do not reccomend painting behind their vinyl because of shrinkage and showed examples. Plus I live in California where we have a drastic differences in weather (it's gets 110 where I live and 30 in the winter) compared to you, a possibility? You can call: 1-800 328-3908 (3M Commercial Graphics Division) for more info. My 2 centavos Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stan, I have nothing but good things to say about 3M and the staff there, I get information when needed, they make sign panels, and mock-ups, pms color matching and samples when I need them. We get a visit from them every year and I think they go out of thier way to get the job done, I try real hard not to take a cynical view of everyone in this business, and I think a manufacturer of certain products will tell you what works or not, or the compatability of certain products. Your experience has validity as well, and I can appreciate it, though I may not agree, I believe you have never seen the same problems I have. It's highly probable we are both right, advice is given and taken as they want to see it, we can only do our best to give correct information as we experience it. Either way will work, it's just may not be reccomended. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1539 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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done it mant times... translusent vinyl then on the back then backsprayed, some have been up 10 years and still look great. go for it!
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Dita Mallon
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if it will work. If it is larger than 48" or pan formed, then it wouldn't work, but face specs wern't specified. I just assumed that it was pan formed... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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