posted
Hello Fellow Americans, I need to pass this, in my opinion, shamefull event. From the Coos Bay, Oregon The World newspaper (May 4,2002) A U.S. Forest Service grant of $20,000 funded the design of signs to be placed on a boardwalk of the Port of Bandon. Construction of the signs will cost $15,000 and the Coquille Tribe has donated $7,500 for two more signs for a total of $42,500. There will be eleven 24x36in. signs and three 18x24 signs for a total of 75sq.ft. This comes to $566 a sq.ft.!!! $119,000 will be spent on a 20x24ft. restroom ($248sq.ft.) WHERE'S THE BEDROOMS & KITCHEN!!! We've heard the stories and everything is par for the course in 2K2. SHAMEFULL!!!
posted
So, would I be correct in assuming that it wasn't YOU who ended up with the contract? If you HAD gotten it, would it have upset you as much as it seems to have ??
There's probably much more to this story than what appears on the surface. Government work, and the specifications that they INSIST you meet can and do add very significantly to the cost of doing business with them. I once heard of a contract being awarded for the installation of a sign, and they required an Environmental Impact Study, before work could actually begin on site. Something like that could sure add to the cost!
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Just a few questions? On the signs, what are they Monument Signs? or wayfinding trail signs that need complex artwork? are they made of a high quality durable material? Are there branding issues involved with the signs, like coming up with a new identity for the area? And the bathrooms, is there water service to them, or is that included in the price, especilly in a remote area, needing a septic system, impact studies alone can run into the thousands. I work on projects for the government, and I can tell you the bureaucracy is incredible! Plus some of the work involves planning, design, implementaion and administration, involving a few entities. Plus the fact you have to be licenced, insured up the wazoo, and wait forever to get paid. I admit that price is high, but the companies I worked for have yet to make a fortune doing this kind of work. I know when I worked for sign shops I was astounded to see $500,000 design fees on jobs, and 3 million dollar budgets to build these systems. These companies are at a different level then most, where some of you are used to getting paid 300 bucks for a logo, and an Environmental Graphic Design Firm does it for $20,000. I don't think I could accurately comment when I cant see the whole picture, but I think there are 2 sides. Plus these are open bids where the low price wins, with adequate qualifications, why didn't you bid on it?, what would you have done? These are open bids, and I think it should inpire any of you to get into this type of signage,and see if we can help with giving them more options. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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The company that did our building signs wanted more than $400.00 ea for 4 new signs. They were 6"x6.5"x.25 in glass with raised room numbers and a arch eched on one side. The lettering is dull gold and hard to see. Also has brail under room letters.
-------------------- Raymond Quick Ye Thicker Than Thou Sign and Repair Shoppe Olympic College, 1600 Chester Ave Bremerton, WA 98337 rquick@oc.ctc.edu Posts: 50 | From: Bremerton Washington | Registered: Jan 2002
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Hahahahaaa...eveidently you didn't get to see all the paperwork, inspections, permits, delays, changes, comittee meetings, wining and dining of dignitaries, architectual reviews, approvals, and finally witing to get paid!
I have been asked to bid on a few of this type of projects...after reading about 3 or 4 pages of specifications, I stop and call them and say "Sorry! I don't do this type of work!"
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Because our shop does a fair amount of government work, I can understand why the costs are what they are.
The first large contract that we did, it amazed me at the amount of re-draws, delays, and the sheer amount of paperwork that was entailed.
The specs for materials and custom made items add to the cost when maybe more economical ways could be found. Off the shelf products and more input from qualified sign people would be a positive approach to lowering the costs of these projects.
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Just got the approval on a lowly 8'x16' 3/4" MDO project sign today. I got the original "artwork" from the architect, via the contrator, on June 14 of this year. I got the final approval today, August 14. Nobody had any oconcerns about our ability to produce the work, it just took them 2 months to send me something better than thumbnailed 72 DPI GIF images of stuff. After submitting the final draft to them with color samples on Monday it only took 2 days for an approval.
Beaurocracy is just wonderful, and the "chain of command" is essential! LOL
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Hey if you had to wait a year or more to actually get paid, wouldnt you charge $566 a square too?
Architects are bad enough to deal with, but toss in Government agencies and all the other people, organizations, agencies etc etc that get a piece of the pie and it's just a nightmare to deal with.. may as well get compensated for it.
Two years ago I was put on an engineering team to work on a new court building going up in the Bronx. It's also a NY State Supreme Court that also houses Federal Agents. Well, because of the OKC bombing there's now some pretty tight specs on the window systems on these buildings.
Making glass bomb-proof normally isn't too big of a deal, but they spec'd that they wanted this stuff to withstand a blast from a box truck full of explosives parked right in front of the building. They got what they wanted though, after much engineering and live testing and lots of money. I gotta tell ya though, we had to look long and hard to find 5 box trucks loaded to the hilt with explosives so we could do accurate testing. Sure was fun though.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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I can't speak with experience with bidding or doing sign work for the Government, but I can offer some insight as to how the USFS tends to figure cost. ( I worked for the USFS for a year and was often blown away as to how things were done. If anyone tried to run their business the way the USFS operates I think they would be bankrupt within the first 30 days.)
Often projects are given a budget code. If any employee does any kind of work that remotely is connected to that project, their wages are billed to that project for the duration of their involvement. If they drive a USFS or GSA vehicle and put fuel in it while driving to a meeting etc. that has anythign to do with that project, the fuel and vehicle time is billed to the project. Impact studies are ALWAYS done now to avoid future litigation from enviornmental groups. The building standards are extremely specific, and If I remember correctly, there is usually funds budgeted for future care and maintanance.
I gave up trying to understand completely how the USFS operated when I witnessed a fair amount of waste from the Forest I worked for ( like paying 10 firefighters to hike 8 to 10 hours a day for 2 months in the mountains turning rocks over to identify and map salamander habitat for part of an impact study. lets see.. 10 firefighters x 2k per month for 2 months = roughly 40K to document 1000 square feet of salimander habitat. WOW.. Nothing suprizes me when the USFS is involved.
By the way, the Fire near us is now 378,000 acres, and only 25% contained. Cost is upward of $52,000,000.00 so far. We're sure it will be active until it snows..
posted
Hi, I posted the article. It would be interesting, for sure to get the details about the signs etc. but I just can't see the justifictaion for 20,000. It's a ripoff plain and simple. The usfs has been known to be strapped for cash historically, congress finding enough for space jocks but not for the land we walk on. Now, apparantly, with the Fee Demo program that has added fees and jacked up others they have to much to spend on developing sites. I diverge from the original subject but I believe Congress should fully fund all Parks and Forests instead of charging at the gate for access to "Our Land". This can only lead to privatisation of so called Public land. As a federal tax paying citizen I would not mind a reasonable few dollars allocated to the Forest Service. Being able to drive into a Park or spending a night in campground with no gate fee would make me feel like a real privileged citizen instead of a mere customer.
posted
So if the signs were complex wayfinding signs or maybe a nature walk sign with illustrative graphics and detailed copy, how can that 20,000 be too much? I do signs like that. 20,000.00 means only 200 hours of work at 100.00 buck an hour, not much room for mistakes on projects I have worked on, and not everyone uses clipart or non-commissioned illustrations, I certainly don't. Also, many here never use porcelain enamal technologies, or other long term sign solutions, wayfinding and ADA issues or other high end work to even design or construct a project like this. This kind of work is not out if the league of most people here, but knowing the difference is a big problem for guys not used to this work. I know it's difficult to grasp, but people here give away design as part of the price for doing work, I think if time is spent on a job, one should get paid. I think you should spend the time to get into this work and see for yourself, who knows you might like it, it can be frusterating and fun, Ultimatly I guess you see what you want to see. Good Luck Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Who here wouldn't want an open ended fee, government jobs are typically flat fee, but like I said before, we are most likely in different end of the sign business. If you read my post carefully I think you would understand that sometimes this work entails more than the "average" sign designer does, but whatever. A good reference is www.segd.org the Society of Environmental Graphics is an organization for those involved in signage as an artform and creative discipline. It might be worthwhile checking it out, if not, no big deal, but you could more easily understand the high end of this business and possibly find a way to bid on these projects. Not everyone is a rip off, and to bloat hours is unethical, to say the least, but like I said, you see what you want to see. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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So, as long as Big Government continues to mismanage our money via incompetence (like the man said) and downright careless stupidity, and therefore creates oceans of redtape for contractors to wade thru ,it's perfectly justifiable to milk the cow for all she's worth right??? Only...since it's easier to extort more money from taxpayers when the need arises, the cow just keeps crankin' out milk, huh?
[ August 14, 2002, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
i used to sell gerber 4b's and the state wanted a bid. had to have a bid bond,performance bond and insurance. decided that it would cost twice as much to sell it with all the paper work so i did not bid on it and neither did any one else. so they called back and wanted a verbal bid.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Wayne, From the work I have done, that has not been the case, but I can see it could happen, I'm only basing it on my experience, and since I have only worked on 20 or so jobs involving the government, I might be wrong. But I have worked on simple signs with a lot of graphic designing involved in the panel, and copywriting as well, though I dont know if it's that type of project(though it sounds like it is) that type of designing takes time.The stuff I have done is not the clip-art slap some type on a panel kind of work, trail signs can and usually involve a little work. Like what man said? Or is that an assumption, like bloating hours to milk it? It's incredible how people read into things, I remember now why I was a lurker for a long time, oh well look up the info. or don't, and see it how you like. Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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......Now read the title of the post..."USFS Incompetence"
Hey, don't take it personal. I see you have no small amount of experience with government contracts. You undoubtedly know something I don't and true, there is probably more, to the project in question, than meets the eye. I'm just saying that I wish Government could treat our money like it was their own, spend it wisely, responsibly, instead of with the "easy come easy go.....there's more where that came from" attitude.
Something that comes to mind right now: Here in our town, the State of Florida built a magnificent DOT complex. They have gorgeous new office buildings, administration buildings with very impressive facades, the works. No telling what they cost but obviously worth millions. The DOT credit union building has a covered drive thru with fancy dormers on the roof complete with windows...only the dormers are absolutely functionless. There are no rooms for them to light. They are just "for looks". Who are they trying to impress? The people of Florida? This brings me to the point.
We have some of the most appallingly deteriorated roads you can imagine. Most of the roads in this area will absolutely beat your vehicle to death! Now, I will admit they have finally gotten around to fixing one or two of them but most are still neglected. However, the Department of Transportation headquarters/complex took a few years precedence! And, who pays for the ostentatious architectural masterpieces with grand entryways and useless fake dormers? The same people who are tearing up their cars and trucks (and paying taxes on them) on the roads which surely must have been originally built by the Romans.
Now read Jimmy's post...
quote:....had to have a bid bond,performance bond and insurance. decided that it would cost twice as much to sell it with all the paper work so i did not bid on it and neither did any one else. so they called back and wanted a verbal bid.
Just a little common sense makes a world of difference don't it?
Now I'll go to my room.
[ August 14, 2002, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7403 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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Hi Wayne, It's okay to take it a lil personal I do agree that money could be spent better anywhere, but you can take this argument anywhere you want, (why build nice malls, theme parks, and buildings when if we build simple ones we could all end hunger and poverty in the U.S.) bad example I know, but the point being any job cost money, and it does amaze me that government can spent billions on what seems unneccesary to us. Were talking signage here, so I can't argue about it, but purposefully taking advantage is also wrong, your comments "it's perfectly justifiable to milk the cow for all she's worth right??? and "Only...since it's easier to extort more money when the need arises, the cow just keeps crankin' out milk, huh?" give the illusion that those who do this type of work are involved in the misuse of tax dollars. I certainly hope not, but I see the possibility of it as well. My impression is that when you break a job down into workable hours on a high end job, 200 hours is not much, add the beuracracy of the U.S. government, it gets worse. As far as Jerrys original post "as the man said" is obviously coming from some other frustration with the government, I dont see the budget being that far off, if I compare the work I have done before... To bad we don't know the scope, Oh well I think I spouted enough about it. As my ol' Hawaiian freind would say "Have a smooth and smiling day" Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
At least they will get something for the money.
What about paying farmers not to farm. What about all the nation building where we dump tons of money.
And best of all what about shooting hundreds of cruise missiles at a cost of $1,000,000 each?
We could let the farmers grow food and bomb all the bad guys with crates of produce. How far would $100 million worth of food go. Whole governments would collapse from the disruption.
Think of the cost savings!!
ernie
-------------------- Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 12020 518 885-9899 signs@balchsigns.com http://www.balchsigns.com Posts: 1695 | From: MaltaNY | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Hi, All your posts were very enlightening. I'm going to try to get pics of these little signs and will post them. I think the incompetence of the usfs comes from people passing the buck till it lands on the desk of someone who has reached his or her level of incompetence and by then the project looks so bona fied it must cost that much and is O.K.d.
[ August 15, 2002, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: jerry jaran ]
posted
Hey Ernie! We need the cruise missle just for the fact that they have lettering on them.
Wayne! Your a good guy, we all get carried away! Including myself....You have to be honest when doing this business, why screw someone for 20gs and miss out on a half million dollar project cuz of a bad reputation, it ain't worth it.
Just can't wait to see if Jerry comes up with the pics.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hi, I now have the details on the signs. I called the Port of Bandon and asked for info and got the name of the company. It's Durable Communications Industries in Alberta, Canada. They had the full color illustrations made by artist Denise Dahn of Dahn Designs printed on their Light Jet Printer(film recorder) using special Azo Dyes by Illford that have a 10 yr. fade resistance and then applied to a panel and coated with a special resin with 14 layers of fiber mesh that are invisible. It has anti-graffitti coating. they are 1 in. thick when finished. They also make the frames which are extruded alum. powder coated. There are 24 signs total instead of the 11 I mentioned from the article I read. The price crated and shipped was $10,000. I have yet to contact the designer, but I suspect she would'nt tell me how much she charged. At 20,000 for 24 different images that's $833 per. Fine Art here! Add 416 crated for production costs inc.profit my original rant is hereby ammended accordingly. Whatever that is! I'll have to talk to Denise. Ha. By the way, shortly after I talked to the lady at the Port of Bandon I got a call from the owner, Ron Pazder who gave me all this info. She thought I was bad rapping the project he said. Only in the context of faulty info from the original article tho concerning it being a taxpayer ripoff. I think I'll enjoy my Opitmator beer now!
P.S. The writer of the original article was Bruce powell of Bandon. I called Dahn Design and,of course,she would'nt even say how many drawings she made. If anyone would like to pursue her charges call the Port of Bandon at 541-347-3206.
[ August 19, 2002, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: jerry jaran ]
posted
Hey Jerry, Dahn Design is described as: High quality research, text, design and illustration for interpretive exhibits.
I think I said this before, these are more than just signs or "works of art", if you count the time for research, copywriting, design and layout of the text, and illustration, then factor in meetings and submittals you can see this can start to add up. Let alone concept design, placemaking, construction administration blah, blah, blah....Is it impossible for anyone here to do this? I don't think so, but most signguys are in a comfort zone, and branching off is hard, if not impossible if your mind is not open. I wouldn't doubt that she factors in between 100-150.00 an hour for her work, though she probably works on a flat fee basis (most designers do). Is it fair? Most sign guys don't get paid for design, or just type out supplied text and either a supplied logo, or clip-art. This is different work than most do, so I think it's fair. You break the panels down by price, but you don't consider is printing for review (designers charge for prints), submittals, mock-ups, travel expenses, etc. then 6-8 hours a panel starts looking a little slim, at least to me. I think it's great you took the time to research this, though I think you don't get that there is more work likke that laying around, through public and private entities, it's there, you just have to go for it, and hopefully know to charge enough. I have given a few resources before, but nobody seems interested, except for the few e-mails I have gotten, but research it. You might find you like it more than what you are doing now.
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Hi Rick, I admit that I think small. Small town-work out of storage locker-part time-no experience-etc.She has been in the business a long time and probably knows how to bid somehow. Oh yea, start at 100 an hour at least. Sorry. At any rate, I think these installations are overdone by large companies such as Durable Communications Industries. In light of the fact that the usfs-Nat'l Parks-blm have been ,traditionally, strapped for cash due to inadequete congressional funding resulting in increased user fees at the gate they seem to have enough for elaborate upgrades of all facilities these days and the fees will climb if we don't demand that Congress do away with gate fees and allocate enough to manage these entities and be accountable for thier desisions. Even tho I may be paying a few dollors extra every year even if I don't visit the forests and parks the psychological aspects of doing it without gate fees would make me feel like a real citizen proud to be here. Not just a customer of some corporate entity charging for the view. Nuf said. Visit wildwilderness.org
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