posted
I know that other people have had problems with ORACAL 651 lately and just the other day I got several rolls that weeded just fine and I posted about it but I have just gotten a load of it in AND IT IS THE WORSE EVER!!!!! I don't know what their problem is but NO MORE ORACAL For ME!!! I am switching to Avery A5 AND I DON'T CARE IF IT COSTS MORE cause it's worth it. I used to use A5 and I ordered some the other day and I love it. DADGUM! RACKIN! FRACKIN! SON-OF-A-GUN! CRAPPY-?SS ORACAL!!!!!! BE GONE WITH YOU!!!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
well....i feel better everytime i read one of these......
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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We use Oracal 651 totally. We haven't experienced any problem so far. Just got some white 651 in and it prints (Gerber Edge) cuts and weeds perfectly!
You say the problem is in the weeding? Hmmmmmm, could your blade be a litte dull? Try more pressure or force on the blade.
We have a Gerber Odyessey plotter, and the force on the blade is controlled in Omega software. We have to bump up the down force on the blade every couple weeks. Oracal is a little thicker than other vinyls.
Overall, I love Oracal. I have so many jobs out there with Oracal vinyl on them and they have stood up well. I even have my van lettered with Oracal and I car wash the dickens out of it just to see how well my own lettering lasts!
posted
It weeds like a charm for me too! I'll ditto what Dave said and would check the pressure of your knife and how sharp it is. I can't believe the quality control would be so different between a couple of rolls.
I talked to a rep at the last BIG show about the 751 black and told him it felt like a foil and he said the black was different. You might want to talk to a rep and find out what the scoop really is.
Sorry you are having problems.
-------------------- Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
posted
I'm with Dave, use loads of it every day.....never have any problems. Although, I disagree on the thickness. I believe the 651 is 2.5 mil if I'm not mistaken. It feels a bit thinner than most of the 3 mils in my opinion. It does require a tad bit more weight on our summa d610, but we still end up goin through about 1 new blade every 6 months. Nothing out of the norm for us.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Know what?? We have been using A5 for a while now... and loved it, but i read all the posts from the people who love oracal, so we tried it...
yeh, it took 2 guys an hour to weed something that would have taken 1 guy 10 minutes in avery... that stuff is junk. i bought 2 different colors, red and brown.. the red weeds ok, but the brown was crap... Im with Joe... it really is ORAHELL
posted
WOW this post couldn't have come at a better time, Just this morning I was thinking of trying Oracal. but I think I'll crawl back in my 3M hole.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It doesn't matter if it is a brand new blade 45* 30 * what amount of pressure you use little or a lot or how deep the blade is set. I just a little bit ago CUT into the liner big time in a futile attempt to make it work. Since I am cutting a whole bunch right now I just did cut most of it at one time. It weeded fine for about 10 minutes THEN it seemed as if the adhesive magically welded itself back together and the liner was almost cut all the way through. The adhesive would actually string like cheese on a pizza every once in a while so it definantly is an adhesive problem. I really think that it is just certain lot nos. of it, probably a ba bunch of adhesive. All of these letters are less than one inch tall. It seems to work better on bigger stuff. It is NOT all of the colors. I have I beleive 27 different colors of it in stock right now and most weed fine it is just the WHite, Red and Black. I have spent at least an extra 2 hours weeding today and I have a lot more orders to do WITH THIS CRAP!!!! The last rolls I got worked fine but it has all started over again so AVERY HERE I COME!!!!!! DADGUM OLD ORACAL GARBAGE!!!!!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Just to let you non beleivers know how much pressure I am using. This run I had it set ar 5.46ozs. or 155grams. That is what I usually set my machine at to cut reflective. You can actually here it cutting into the paper. Brand new Roland 45* blade, cutting strip is almost brand new too. It isn't a cutting problem, it is an adhesive problem. You guys may be getting it from a different lot no. I don't know. I didn't have this problem last week and I can even switch between rolls of ORACAL and some weeds and this new WON'T. ORACAL IS A BUNCH OF COMMIE SONSOFAGUNS!!!!!! HA!HA!
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
My supplier was out of Avery in the colors I needed last week so I went to the local cheapo supplier and bought Oracal. I agree, TOTAL JUNK. It took me well over an hour to weed vinyl for 4 coroplast signs where the letters were no smaller than 2" tall and pretty thick. I waste more time and have more headaches with that junk. It's worth it to me to spend $20 per roll for Avery A8. I have never tried A5 but I will soon.
-------------------- Amy Brown Life Skills 101 Private Address Posts: 3502 | From: Lake Helen, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
oracal is not vinyl...not like any others anyway...its some kinda plastic crap. reason for the added blade pressure!!!! it is HARDER and STIFFER then vinyl....it eats blades...i put in a brand new 60 or 45 degree blade in either of my rolands...move the pressure slide all the way to - nothing...and i can cut AVERY A-8...for A-5 IAM CUTTIN AT 30 GRAMS!!!!!!!try that with ora-hard-ass-plastic. cutting at this pressure...will make a blade last 3 times longer then cutting at 155!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hey Amy, where are you getting A8 for $20 a roll? E-mail me with who cause I've been paying way more than that.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Hmmmm, sorry to hear you're having trouble John. I've ran into a couple rolls that weed a little tougher, but all in all, no problems, and thats cutting on a summa d-60 with 90 grams downforce. Id definitely call the company and the suppler about it though.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Yeah Oracal has always been crap. Just like OP says..... it goes thru blades like crazy.....weeds terrible. It IS cheap. But that's it.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Tell you what we learned about Oracal "vinyl"...the stuff shrinks way too much in the sunlight and then the adhesive sets up and becomes rock hard. We used to letter menu boards on a barbecue trailer with it. The guy changed his prices and menu about every two months so we'd have to peel all the lettering off and replace it. We ran out of Calon and all that was available quickly was Oracal. Two months later the guy comes back and there is a new gray outline around everything because the vinyl shrank by about 25%. No problem, just peel it off and reletter. Yeah, right. A normal 45 minute job took us all day. The lettering came off in little flecks and the the adhesive felt like dried epoxy.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Like the old sayin goes "pay now or pay later" We have always advised everyone who was having vinyl problems to stick with a quality product, if consistancy is important, then you know it dosn't come cheap.
The money you save on cheaper materials does not always "pay off" when you consider the extra time involved or the failures.
Just my opinion. Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Roger said the word: consistency. Oracal is great I use it almost exclusively, but it is not consistant, you may cut some red and weed it fine then put black in and not cut well. nothing a little more pressure cant fix though. You do have to realize that it is NOT vinyl, and is made completely differntly than any other products. Apples and oranges
-------------------- Ken McTague, Concept Signs 57 Bridge St. (route 107) Salem MA 01970 1-978-745-5800 conceptsign@yahoo.com http://www.pinheadlounge.com/CaptainKen
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"A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?" Posts: 2425 | From: Salem, MA | Registered: Apr 1999
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posted
I don't buy material cause it's "cheaper". My supplier is an oracal dealer, I started using it, and as of yet, none of the problems noted above have happened to me. IF they do, I'll switch. But not to one at a cheaper price. I routinely use 3m from Gregory also. I've used Avery, FDC, and others, and so far Oracal weeds the best. I sent an email to the company about this post. Let's see how they reply.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
I've NEVER used 651. I've been using 751 and it's GREAT! I also regularly use MacTac 9800 and AVERY HP. I've generally gone to HP vinyls, although I still use CAL-PLUS on occasion for the cheaper stuff. When you start figuring square foot price, there's not a whole lot of difference when it comes to savings, so I opt generally for the "good" stuff to avoid problems,moreso than stressing over cost price!
posted
I'm with Bob.. I dont even bother with the low performance films because the prospect of a failure is enough reason to use a better product, and the cost savings just arent there..
I know some will say "Well, why would you use HP on corplast or magnetics?"
Simple. The savings are NOT there. You save what, $2 on a set of magnetics? You still have to do the same amount of design and layout, it still requires the same amount of labor.. what's $2 in comparison? OK.. let's say you have a job that requires 32sq ft of film.. HP vinyl is $32, Cal film is $10. You save a whopping $22 on a job that probably brings in $300-$500 (or more).
Then again, I live in a pretty harsh desert climate so I've seen how fast the calendared films degrade here.. within days they shrink enough to leave the glue trail and not much longer after that they crack and peel.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I still can't help but believe that some of the vinyls we get have been stored or hauled in a hot humid enviroment! I posted earlier about this, www.letterhead.com/ubb-cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=018966 and I think it deserves further investigation. I'm not saying that this is the case with the Oracal 651, but I have had problems with the adhesive "healing" itself, and like you say, I had cut into the backing paper. Mine wasn't Oracal, but lets face it..... Vinyl is supposed to be kept in a cool, dry place. Most of our suppliers are in non AC'd warehouses.
-------------------- Dave Utter D-utterguy on chat Sign Designs Beardstown, Il. signdesigns@casscomm.com Posts: 777 | From: beardstown, illinois, usa | Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by old paint: oracal is not vinyl...not like any others anyway...its some kinda plastic crap. reason for the added blade pressure!!!! it is HARDER and STIFFER then vinyl
Joe - We go through this every time Oracal comes up. Again, PVC IS polyVINYLchloride. Vinyl IS plastic. Oracal may be made differently than others and it may be garbage but it's "plastic" just like all the other vinyls that you use.
[ July 06, 2002, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Brian Snyder ]
-------------------- Brian Snyder Sign Effectz Woodbridge, New Jersey Posts: 723 | From: Woodbridge, NJ USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
AHHH,you one "smart fortune cookie" Mike Pipes.
I guess some folks just see a smaller " material bill" at the end of the month, now if they could look back and remember how many times they came home and told the wife what a "bad day" they had, everything went wrong, had to drive across town 4 times, ran outa that weird red vinyl!! Etc. etc. etc.
Good materials cost a bit more, but, how much is your time and sanity worth?? At the end of the month, you'll probably see more gross dollars generated, cause you were not spending extra time on every job, or doing some twice(while you could be doin another new one).
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Just got a new roll of red 651. Just because My supplier was out of avery and I needed it to do a job. It weeds like crap. New blade and more force and it still weeds like crap. Just the red, white and black thought. My new roll of dark blue weeds like a dream.. OH WELL. Ken
-------------------- Kenneth Scott Ken's Custom Tees 311 River Road Cumberland, Ky 40823 kenscott@setel.com Posts: 31 | From: Cumberland Kentucky | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Guys, dont turn this into a post about how some of us are cheapos and dont use 3m on every dang job. It would be ludicrous to use 3m on a 4x8 election sign, or hp of any kind on signs meant for short term. Ill reiterate, I have had no failure from the vinyls I use, other than a few years ago, when I stupidly used bannercal. It is apparent some of you have had problems with 651, I haven't, and I have a very respectable reputation in my town. I dont do work that will come back on me, and wont. Ive got plenty experience in what I do, and dont cut corners. I like the way Oracal 651 works on the jobs I use it on. Guess Im just lucky.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Okay 'yall try to figure this out. I had about 250 feet of vinyl to cut today. I got started on one of the culprit rolls of black weeded out a good chunk of it and it WEEDED LIKE CRAP! Then I had to go out of town for a while 6 hours as a matter of fact. I left about a little over half of it sitting there waiting to be weeded until I got back. When I get back, I started the dreaded task of weeding it AND GUESS WHAT? It weeded like the grace of God was with me. You could rip weed it or do anything you wanted to it and It would weed good. Same roll, same design just one weeded 6 hours later. WHAT GIVES? I weed about 125 feet in 1/10th the time it took to weed the other 125 feet. Something is definantly up. As a matter of fact, I am going to conduct an experiment next week, taking the red (the worst weeding) and weeding a set all cut at the same time, in hour intervals. MAybe I'll figure it out. Maybe it is temperature, maybe it is humidity, maybe it just has to set for a little while I HAVEN"T A CLUE?????????????????????
[ July 07, 2002, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: John Thompson ]
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Something else, I ONLY USE THE CHEAP STUFF ON CHEAP SIGNS! I hope everybody posting here knows better than to use 651 on cars or decent, long term signs. I use it mainly on Coroplas, Temporary banners and short to med term signs (2-3 years in my case) and I won't use it on one of them UNLESS I let the customer decide which vinyl to go with after explaining the difference. I don't see using A8 or 3M on temporary flat signs, it is just wastin money. Some of the signs I made today will be up 5days, why use A8 for something like that? On "real signs" I make and vehicles and long term banners, I use Avery A8/9, 3M, Gregory Cast and sometimes Tape Technologies. I beleive that is the way that most of us that use both do. I have two seperate sections of hanging vinyl racks one with cast, one with calendered and I myself think that is the way any sign shop that deals with a wide variety of signage should be.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Maybe this isn't the right place to post this, but... I have found (by mistake) that if I have some cheap vinyl and the weeding sucks, even if it is cut almost through the liner, I can still weed it in time. I place the vinyl in the fridge for a good portion of the day, take it out and wham! 90% of the time it weeds like a charm! I think the cold shrinks the vinyl and opens up the cuts a bit more, plus it hides the beer at the back of the fridge...
-------------------- Eric Patzer A.S.A.P. Design Lafayette, CO epatzer@earthlink.net Posts: 208 | From: Lafayette, CO USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It is quite possible that is what happened the other day when I let it set for 6 hours or so BECAUSE, I was cutting and weeding the first bunch in the hot day NOW mind you I did it in an air conditioned trailer but is still hotter in there in the dat WHEN we came back, it was night and I had the thermostat set to 68 or so and it ws COOOOOOLD as a.......well you know in there. so it may have settled down a little. I'll have to try that on this bad stuff and see.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Please read the post "I guess I wasn't an Idiot! ORACAL 651.
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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I'm with Mr. Deaton on this one...I have used a bunch of 651 Oracal and have not had a problem with weeding, knife wear or any of the other problems discussed. I guess I'm lucky too.
The fact that you left a cut image for 6 hours and came back to find it weeded nicely is truly amazing.
Normally, a cut image left for hours will exhibit just the opposite effect - tougher weeding. This is because the cut adhesive tends to display a "rubber band" effect. If it is cut or stretched, it will want to return to it's original position. Cut graphics, left unweeded for a length of time will tend to be more difficult to weed because the scored adhesive wants to "flow" back and rejoin itself.
So that is a perplexing development...but hey...glad it worked better nonetheless.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
i got some mistakes..i cut and never weeded....and in a days time the vinly will shrink away from the cut line so much that you can see the liner showin thru....and oracal do shrink!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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