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An out of town construction company is here for a two year project of building a substantial new bridge over the river. I was called to do a bunch of construction site signs, and they asked for a price and sketch before I started. When I presented the sketches they were quickly dismissed and it was stated that the other prices were far better. My layouts were commercial, although I pay attention to properly prioritizing elements and grouping copy in an easy to understand manner. To get the price lower would involve using cheaper materials and maybe using a layout that was just typed out and weeded and stuck on the thin coroplast. I was never informed that I was getting into a bidding war for the cheapest without spec's given, and was actually having my time wasted. Usually I can sift through this scenario over the phone and kiss them good bye.
My point is, I hope that I always encourage everyone I deal with to do their best. I'm not saying do an outlined gold job on a parking sign, but learning what is appropriate for the situation and always trying to do my best. What I found this contractor doing was asking me to do my worst. I doubt they intended to insult me, but I walked away with a gift of clarifying my behavior toward others.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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In a situation such as this...I ALWAYS ask "Are you looking for a bid or a price?" If the say "Bid", I say "Sorry, I don't waste my time trying to be the cheapest!"
Remember...bidding = looking for the cheapest price. There is no way to compete against a guy using coroplas and promotional grade vinyl working out of his garage! ( Unless that is your method of operation!)
Dealing with comany Purchasing Agents is also a dangerous minefield! I am convinced that they will all be relegated to the deepest, darkest chamber in Hell! In the first place, they only look at the bottom dollar. And often they will deliberatly leave out details, that will drive the cost up!
Rick....chalk it up as a lesson learned!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I find it increasingly difficult to determine who arethe price shoppers and those who are setting a budget. I try to send those looking for a low bid down the road and have quite a reputation around the county for that. It is unfortunate when we get sucked into wasting our time as Rick did. John Glenn lamented just before he blasted off the first time that every piece of the rocket ship was provided by the low bidder. I am mindful of this whenever I am in a elevator in a public building etc. It seems that especially in the lower pay purchasing offices such a government and small corporations, the PA cannot seem to determine the difference between the best price for quality and just plain cheap.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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Yeah, corporate mentality, they don't want to pay up front, but seems they always pay in the end (lots a times its in the courtroom )!!
Makes you wonder what they are teachin our children in schools and high level universities ?? One thing thats obvious; If you don't want to pay out money from your "customer service or claims dept." then just install automated phone system and set the hold delay at 25 minutes, its always worked for the govt., especially the I.R.S. when they owe YOU !!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Just finished a window splash for a new mechanic's shop. He was upfront about having a limited budget, opened 2 days ago! he got a nice job, but without "all the whistles and bells"!!! I got paid in ca$h with a BIG thank you and he took my card, going to call when he can afford to change the splash and get one with all the werks!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I usually don't find it too difficult to establish whether a client wants a cheap sign or something more distinctive. Then I price and produce accordingly. I see no shame in pounding out a simple coroplast sign in cheap vinyl if that's all that the client requires. It's usually not to difficult to impress on someone that you get what you pay for and business people are often astute enough to realize you don't get something for nothing. In fact sometimes I get a bigger profit margin on little cash jobs because I waste little time or effort on them while on more extravagant dimensional jobs I can spend too much time fretting over details that the average person won't even notice.
-------------------- Happy Signing...... Marty
M.F. (Marty) Happy Signmaker Since 1974 Happy Ad Sign & Design Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4 306-789-9567 happyad@sasktel.net www.happyad.ca
Get Happy & Get Noticed! Posts: 773 | From: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jan 1999
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I have had such a problem with people around me using different products and therefore having a lower price that I now thoroughly explain the different substrates and prices and then tell them the difference betweeen cast and cal. and let them decide the difference. Big difference in price between getting .080 with cast and .040 with cal. now I make sure my customer understands also, or at least I hope. A post a day or so ago gave me an idea and I am in the process of making up a visual chart explaining the different materials and their suggested uses and lifetimes (NOT A WARRENTY)
-------------------- John Thompson JTT Graphics "The big guy with a little sign shop!" Royston/Hartwell Georgia jtt101@hotmail.com Posts: 626 | From: Royston Georgia | Registered: Feb 2002
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Rick, with your reputation, probably what happened was, the contractor got a strong referral from the locals to use you. He couldn't just ignore you, so he let you do your thing while quietly getting a price from his "usual" bargain basement shop. Then, when you gave him your price in writing, he had the evidence he needed to show the locals that he tried to use you but could not because you were too expensive. If he has your sketches, he probably gave them to the low baller to copy. You will see when the signs go up.
In short, you were used. He wouldn't have told you he was getting another bid even if you asked.
It sure is a shabby business practice.
Don't lose any sleep over it. Vic G
-------------------- Victor Georgiou Danville, CA , USA Posts: 1746 | From: Danville, CA , USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Vic, I think your analysis is correct. I gracefully slid my sketch from his hand as I walked out. My point is not grumbling about loosing a job, it's being asked to do less than my best. Less than my best to offer everything I know to service my customer. Less than my best to make an appropriate sign for the situation. Less than my best to use the appropriate materials to last the duration of the project and hold up knowing the particular stresses during the two year project.I just want to offer all that I know to every request and do my best. I know there are times for coroplast and intermediate vinyl, but still the layout should be pleasing with proper letterspacing and proportions.I just don't want to do something pretending I haven't learned anything over the last thirty five years.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I am seeing a lot more signs made on jobs that I lost bids on, being made shoddy and substandard. Where I may have bid with superior materials, others end up making in coroplast or pvc. If they use MDO, it is left unpainted on the back and edges, and possibly with calendered vinyl.
Try and educate these buyers with this and they think you are giving them a sleazy sales pitch.
In the environment we live in today a lot of people don't expect craftmanship or doing a long lasting job, let alone the design and support that professionals were always supposed to give.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2786 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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I wouldn't get too discouraged by this sort of thing. Personally, I think we're in the trough of a trend...
There are (and always have been) those who buy based on value, those who buy based on price and those "in the middle" who will often be swayed one way or the other. You can never be all things to all people.
During many market-related discussions I've participated in over the years, people often use a diagram that they refer to as a "pyramid", but always draw as a triangle. I like to joke that these people lack perspective. Anyway, the pyramid is intended to represent the marketplace -- and is divided into thirds.
For the purpose of this discussion, the people who buy based on value represent the top third of the classic pyramid. They are the smallest in number. Next are those in the middle (a larger number of prospective buyers) -- who represent the people that will buy on value or price, depending on the influences they are subject to. The botom third (the greatest number) are those who buy on price.
My sense is that the people piping in here sell based primarily on value (including value added). Let me tell you with absolute certainty that you are in a minority. The "el cheapo" sign companies out their cannot compete with you in your primary (the top third of the pyramid) market. Is the number of customers in this segment sufficient to support you with the revenue you need to achieve your goals? If yes (GREAT!) focus all of your efforts here. Maximize your market share.
Is the market growing at a rate commensurate to achieving your goals for growth? If not, you need to segment the middle of that pyramid into thirds and develop a plan to "skim" the top third of that. Maximize your market share. Repeat.
Don't lose any sleep worrying about how to win the bottom feeders over. There are plenty of other signshops out there to cater to these people...and keep doing what you do best.
[ June 08, 2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I fully understand what you are talking about. I do what I do for the love of it... the money is a by product. To do less than I am capable of doesn't interest me. To do less than the job demands also isn't worth the effort.
If someone wants something that I don't want to make I don't feel bad to lose (or send) them to someone down the road.
There are always folks around who underbid. Fact of life. There was a day when I did that too, mostly through inexperience (and ignorance on my part).
I now work for myself (at Giggle Ridge) or for clients who truely want what I produce. I still am faced with budgets in both cases, but the discussion of money mostly affects timing and not the quality of the job.
Stick to your guns and produce what you are capable of, always trying to get better. To do less won't make you happy.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8761 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'd say Vic nailed it. The PA was pressured into asking you for a sketch and a price, never intending to hire you. It is indeed a shoddy, manipulative business practice - the sort of thing they teach in graduate business schools. The only sure way to be compensated is to require a design fee up front - no exceptions, and especially when dealing with a corporate PA. My sketch fee is $250 - my position is that a serious buyer who is in the market for a quality product won't have a problem with money up front; if they object, they aren't serious. The $250 is no guarantee you'll get the job, it just compensates your time for doing a sketch, and it weeds out the tire-kickers and those with less-than-ethical intentions.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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This is exactly what I have been experiencing Rick. You do your best layout for the type of job, then find out they either wanted to 'use' your design and go price shopping (I also got my my design before leaving) or they don't care what their signs look like. When it happens a few times in one week it does get frustrating. But then usually another great job will pop up to satisfy your creativity.
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