posted
this is in referance to lindas post. how many here have done AUTO PAINTING? i know grudy, perkins,madden, and i also have done this kinda painting. reason for the added post is to explain to those who have never done this. it is not a job that you can take on without some prior experiance. auto paints are not the same as any paints you have used before. i dont know anything about the new urathanes, got outa the paintin thing bout the time they came in. preperation, application, place to paint, how much humidity in the air, and there are no NON-TOXIC auto paints. on a scale of learning how to use these products, i put it on the same scale as learning to swing a quill....so what iam sayin is....you might be better off to find someone who is well versed in this type of work..and spend some time... couple months at lest, learning from someone 1st hand how this stuff is done. just ask someone who does this work, how long they took to learn what they do. this aint a computer, clipart, vinyl cutter......
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Good point OP.....but the new paints like House of Kolor's pinstriping paintis some pretty awesome stuff where clear coat is required, like Linda is asking about. If you already have experiance with 1Shot you will have no problems using the same techniques with HOK paint. I have taught many individuals to use HOK paint and it really is not new to the market....I have been using these paints for many years. I started back in the '70's using the laquers, enamels and anything I could use to get and awesome paint job. Metalflake brand laquers were pretty much the only custom paint to use until House of Kolor came out with their brand of laquer and then introduced their urathanes. The urathanes are thousands times more durable and these never wrinkle or yellow like the old laquers. But, like you said it does take some playing around with to get the feel of it and if most people are like me it takes a project to propell them into trying something new....
Hetz...
[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Jim & Chris hetzler ]
-------------------- Jim & Chris Hetzler JC Hetz Studio 513 W 3rd St. Muscatine, IA 52761 563-263-2803 jhetzler@machlink.com www.jchetzstudio.com
"We are the one that makes you look good!" Posts: 137 | From: Muscatine,Iowa,USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Excellent post Joe and excellent survey on you answers Jim. I to have used all those paints mentioned and as I said in Lindas post ' it should be very interesting' I always found a seminar handy through body shop suppliers or just paint manufacturers reps, which is what Linda should first get herself into. The automotive paints are of a different school and without using the proper equipment, clothing and a great respirator preferibly a fresh air system, and without this equipment it can turn you into a vegetible in a hurry.
Although HoK is very easy to use, you must and I stress this, you must have some kind of experience other then airbrushing waterbased paints on T-Shirts.
Persons on this board like to use the soft term of 'Hardeners' when referring to Isocyinate Catalyst which is used in the spraying of clearcoats and as an additive to 1-Shot paint, both the same.
Thats all I have to say for now
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I started airbrushin with laquer at 13, did my first all over paint job at 16. What a mess that was, haha. I painted my buddy's cougar black laquer, then sprayed it with silver metal flake. That was a big mistake, used about 20 ounces of flake in a quart of unthinned clear. The car felt like 24 grit grinding disc. Talk about learning from experience!!!!! I eventually stripped the car down with aircraft stripper, primed and painted just black laq this time, put a couple murals on it and cleared with a LOT of laq clear. it finally looked pretty good.
I'm 44 and still paint cars at a dealership body shop. have went through acrylic laquer, strait enamels, acrylic enamels, poly ureathanes (imron), and acrylic ureathanes. i religiously wear a resperator nowadays (not all the time when i was younger), and for clears, I use an air supplied resperator. I still do airbrushing but not full time. Now, 1-shot is fairly new to me, didnt know much about it till I found letterville.
I'm in about the same position as Rick. 25 years of spraying anything and everything automotive.
I can only add to what Joey always advises.
Respirator, respirator, respirator. Full body coveralls, Head cover, gloves if you can stand using a gun with them on, and wear that respirator WHILE you are mixing the catalyst with the paint..That is when it is MOST toxic.
I have been fortunate to have not suffered any ill effects from my years of spraying catalized products, but then I also wore protective gear religiously. Nowadays I only spray the stuff on vinyl but I still wear protection.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
I'll just add this... I have no idea how different it may be with HOK paints, but, speaking of acrylic lacquers, If you decide to go for it, the investment in a small batch of materials and the time to get used to them is well worth it. The ease of mixing and application, and the versatility of layering transparent colors are FAR superior to working with opaque, slow drying one-shots.
Yes, there is the issue of clear coating. It is an inescapable but almost sepatate issue, as there are so many options to choose from depending on the longevity desired. I have found that virtually all "problems" associated with custom finishes center around the choice of (and successful application of) the clearcoat. Main problem being that the most durable of them are trouble to recoat, running the danger of burning into previous clears, causing wrinkling and other nightmares. The initial clear coat is never the problem, it's having to repair something that requires a new clear top coat. But that is only with exotic clears. And really, it is usually caused by inprecise mixing of components of omitting some brand-specific sealer coat or preparation that leads to these problems.
Simple clears like One Shot sign clear or straight acrylic enamel without any catalyst are much better behaved, and although they're prone to slight yellowing and earlier loss of gloss, they are definitely viable choices.
Bottom line, if you are called to this medium, I say go for it with a gusto. If you're inclined to master it, it is masterable. When you're ready to jump into more exotic clears, be prepared to follow directions religiously and maybe suffer the occasional surprise. Having a pal in the auto painting business with a real spray booth wouldn't hurt either.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Joe Rees, I think that Lacquer would be considered Exotic in this day and age, since Urethanes have become the standard in the automotive painting industry.
The most important thing to remember is safety. This means a paint suit with gloves as well as a fresh air system. Many respirators of yesteryear are not designed to paint even the clearcoats of today. I know of many painters who have failed the test of time, which means they are either no longer around of who have big respirtory problems just from painting with automotive paints, whether lacquer or urethanes. The day of the 20 coats of lacquer have come to an end for both these painters and their lifestyle.
As I stated before and in all posts regarding clear coating with automotive materials, these coatings have the harshest of solvents known to human beings and protection is of the utmost importance.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
A lot of people think that they're safe behind a respirator with big cartridges. NOT!
Those cartridges will NOT filter out the isocyanates, which are oderless and tasteless.
I learned the hard way, working in a shop that didn't stress safety. And now, I have a greatly heightened sensitivity to isocyanates as a result.
I still like the finish and durability of a Deltron base coat, a Concept clearcoat, or an Awl Grip System. But I won't go near them without the precautions mentioned above - especially the fresh air respirator.
Plus, I charge out the yazooo for using them.
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
Instagram: Purcell Woodcraft
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 902 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Joey, no arguments from me about safety. I am curious though, about your comment that by toadys standards Lacquers are exotic and Urethanes are standard. Are you talking about urethane clears vs lacquer clears . . . or urethane colors as an airbrush medium? See, I've been out of it so long, maybe you can teach me something. I have heard that the 'new' basecoat/clearcoat systems use color coats that go on dry and dull, much like the lacquers I am familiar with. Is that the kind of urethane you mean? And do those types of color coats need a catalyst added to them? Mixing up a half dozen batches of catalized color seems like a lot of work. Would you please tell me more specifics about the airbrush paints you would endorse, and why. Thanks.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Well...i was gonna sit these out but here goes..
Joe,by lacquers being exotic he means they are no longer being used in a general sense. Some here will tell oh yes use them,i still use them,blah blah...the reason theyre going to give you that advice is that plain and simple they're too lazy to catch up with modern times and learn a new system. Lacquer,unless you're refinishing furniture musicl instruments or some types of furniture is nowadays a re very poor choice of materials. Its not stable,doesn't have the structural durability or pigment durability or variation of newer materials. Lacquer dried flat and you had to polish it to get it to shine and consequently you worked 3x's as hard as you would using a basecoat/clearcoat system. It was a custom painters choice for many years b/c it was easy to use and by reducing it and spraying it in layers you could achieve a lot of depth to your job. Anything you can do with lacquer,you can do with basecoat/clearcoat...if someone ever tells you you can't,as they invariably will,do not listen to em. Many also feel lacquer was safer to use b/c it wasn't catalyzed but thats not true,anything thats aerosolized like that is bad for you. By calling it exotic joey means good luck in trying to find it in most areas and its rarely used anymore except by some diehards,see above. (here in La we cannot sell it any longer). As far as basecoat/clearcoat systems,most are lumped into the term urethane b/c of the catalyzed urethane clear thats designed to go on top.Some are acrylic enamel basecoats,some are urethane basecoats,some are acrylic enamel and some are acrylic polyester...its all dependent on what brand you use as to make up....all do the same thing...you spray a minimal amount of coats,usually 2-3 if you're spraying a say a backround 1 color,the reducer flashes out and the color dries flat and looks like lacquer.What you have now is a very unstable color coat,when you spray the catalyzed clear over the top,it crosslinks with the basecoat and becomes one single layer and hardens that way....end result is very strong product thats not going to eat up when gas spills on it,crack in the winter when it gets cold etc like lacquer will. B/c of the extremely fine grind on the pigments in these kind of products you can reduce em down and layer just like you could with lacquer. You can also sand the base in between coats if you get a run,fingerprint,tape edge just like you did b4 if you need to. If you can spray lacquer,you can shoot basecoat. The biggest difference in the systems is the use of the catalyzed clear.Biggest difference there is mental...if you can shoot frogjuice or oneshot clear or pelucid etc you can shoot these. Do you need protection? yes,just like joey said. You can get varying degrees of solid content clears. The higher the solid content of the clear,the less coats it requires to cover and the higher the mil or film build is on each pass of the gun. the drawback is that the more high solid the clear,the 'less clear' the end finish is going to be. You can haze a job up really fast just by going from 2coats to 3 thinking more is better,and if youre doing a custom job like a candy,the candy will not look as deep or as true in high solid clear,you also may not be able to get it mix as well b/c it simply has less room to disperse. The higher solid also lends itself to spray problems the less experience you have with using them(orange peel etc) and some of the lower VOC high solid clear dry so damn hard you will have difficulty in getting so much as a 2000grit sand scratch out of it even with machine. You're much better off using a lower solid grade clear and spraying 4-5 thinner coats than 2 heavy ones. A jobber will probably not tell you that....they will try to sell you the 'latest greatest'. When you mix automotive clear or even a catalyzed single stage color like urethane or enamel...YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE MIXING RATIO RIGHT. IF THERE IS ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND....READ THE DIRECTIONS ON THE BACK OF THE CAN...thats why those who don't know what they're talking about put them there. Read em twice if you have to and at minimum use them as your starting point for mising ratios,spray pressures etc...yes you may have to make adjustments based on your specific shop enviroment but read the directions.Its not the sign buisnes where what worked 40yrs ago is still basic in principle and what you should follow,it's become very technology based and undergoes alotta changes about every 5-6yrs. This will sound harsh to some,but this is where you will screw the pooch EVERY time....its not what you're used to,you cannot,despite what some self appointed experts tell you start adding a little bit of this and alittle bit of that,or 5% catalyst instead of 20% and expect it to work. Over 90% of all painters,whether they are rolling it,spraying it,throwing it or brushing it fail at the mixing bench b4 they ever pick up the gun and pull the trigger. Sounds harsh but its 100% true...the other side of that is this if its done right,material failure is very rare and its easy to sand out and repair a mistake and spot it in,and you should be able to do that in a 2-6hr window range and not have to wait 4days for it to dry etc. Just my .02
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I know i'm being long winded here but i feel like i should add this...somebody is bound to bring up the fact that lacquer has a diff look i.e shine than urethane...yes,urethane will look 'wetter' and it can be a problem if you're restoring a car or something to that effect...there are urethane clears out there that are designed to look like lacquer just for that purpose,if your jobber tells you no he's wrong. As far as recommending a brand,i'm gonna stay away from doing that,all i will say is this...the bigger the name on the can,or the bigger the intended purpose of the product(ex AWLGRIP being used on yachts) the more $$$$$$$ you're gonna pay and you're not always gonna get the quality you think you're getting.B/c they have the name recognition everyone feels HOK is the best thing bar going,and while its not garbage by any terms its not necessarily the hottest thing on the block. Anything you can do with HOK or you think you can do with HOK you can do with any brands base/clear system. Don't get locked into a name. The one exception here is the HOK striping/lettering enamel,it hasn't changed in the last few years and is an excellent product.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Probably one of the best posts I have read on this BB in ages. Gavin you said a mouthfull but it was a mouthfull that many people should really take to heart. In the 22+ years that I have been playing with automotive paints, I can honestly say that one thing is important besides the safety aspect that I for one have always respected. The one thing I believe in is to try very hard to stick with one manufacturers product through the whole job. Yes many products are interchangeable, however if you experience a problem when doing a job and wish to bitch to your local jobber, I will bet his eyes will roll as soon as you tell him that you used a different brand of ANYTHING mixed with his brand. of course that will mean he cannot warranty anything for that job. If you can try to talk to someone from a body shop, I was lucky enough that in the course of my 22 years I was able to sit in on a PPG training class for the Delta system. I can say that I forgot most of what I learned because I dont wOrk with the product(did a few times), but I did get enough information that was relative to any urethane type product, the most important thing the guy stressed was safety. This S@#T will kill you if not taken seriously.
As for the BB, there are many people here that can give you alot of insight into how to work with any of the paint products out there. I personally have found Joey Madden to full of knowledge in the use of HOK paints. Dave Grundy has some good info too.
But more importantly, dont think that you can buy a can of paint today and become Michaelangelo with it tomorrow morning. Its just like learning to use a sword striper or a lettering quill.It takes time, patience, practice and plenty of mistakes before you get the hang of it.
If your interested in trying HOK paints, they offer small kits thru Coast Airbrush and Bear Air. I purchased one and cant wait for it to warm up enough to spray them in the garage where the fumes wont enter the house and make anyone sick.
For now I just sniff the cans and bottles and think about the Dain Bramage I might be getting from them.
-------------------- Harris Kohen K-Man Pinstriping and Graphix Trenton, NJ "Showing the world that even I can strategically place the pigment where its got to go." Posts: 1739 | From: Trenton, NJ, USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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