posted
I have heard some talk of water size on the board before. I was wondering if anyone could answer some questions for me.
1. Is water size used just like oil based size? 2. Can it be used for outdoor applications? 3. How long after applying can you lay your gold? 4. Name brands? 5. Where do you buy yours?
...and any other information you think I may need to know. THANKS!
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287
Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rob- Water size is nothing at all like oil size. It is a solution of gelatin dissolved in water, and is used to adhere gold leaf to the inside of glass. This is its only application. There are no "brands" to purchase per se, it is mixed when needed. The gelatin comes in the form of capsules, powder, or the diamond-cut sheet sold by Esoteric Supply. For a full description of the use and nature of water size, read "Gold Leaf Techniques" by Kent Smith, also available through Esoteric.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
You must not have been paying attention at the Mass Mayhem meet
Water size is used for glass guilding mixing distilled water and geletin diamonds, capsules, or even powder, over heat untill your geletin is totally dissolved.
You apply your gold right after sizing as not to let any " holidays" appear. keeping a constant wet edge.
You should use a separate brush specifically for water size.
By Jove you're just gonna buy Kent Smiths book and it's ALL in there.
E-mail me if you need any more specifics, but you should get a whole bunch of facts right here.
I've never seen pre-made water size, or brands. Jest make it yerself. If you can't get the diamonds from Esoteric sign supply then go to your local supermarket and buy plain geletin powder, It's like gello without the flavor and the color. Also use the cleanest water you can find, like spring water.
I've used that before in a pinch,
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you."
Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is a water based size called wunda size which I purchased through moseart (a merchant here). It dries very fast (15 min) for gilding. I learned about it the pinstripe bootcamp from John Hannukaine, good stuff.
-------------------- Brian Stoddard Northwest Signs
posted
Don't confuse "water size" with "water-based size" - they are not the same animal. Sounds confusing, doesn't it? Water-based size is the sticky stuff you use for surface gilding. "Water size is not sticky...at least not to us.
Listen to Cam. And buy the book. It will answer all your questions. I used it over 35 years ago to do my first glass gilding...and still refer to it from time to time.
[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have used "WondaSize" for surface gilding quite often. The tack sets in 15-20 minutes and will hold for up to 36 hours. The longer - the better. I get mine from Esoteric as well.
It also works for the heavier metals (copper, etc.) as well.
What are you gilding?
[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Nevman ]
-------------------- Pat Neve, Jr. 321-537-8675 Capt. Sign
posted
Gents- I did a search and found some old posts about something called Intacol or something like that. Is this waterbase and can anyone tell me about it. They say it has a brilliant shine. ANY HELP?
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287 Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've used the Instacoll a few years ago. They made some changes in the composition of the size and I haven't kept up with it. I believe it is similar to the Wunda size. It is water based and very brilliant. I think I got it at Sepp Leaf Products.
-------------------- Jean Shimp Shimp Sign & Design Co. Jacksonville Beach, Fl Posts: 1285 | From: Jacksonville Beach, Fl. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bob, I'm not doing anything in particular. I'm just expanding my horizons. I just want to learn new things and try different techniques. Our wednesday night group would like to try some waterbased size.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Rob Larkham Signs & Lettering 21 Middlefield Road Chester, MA. 01011
413-354-0287 Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
this is where I get off, never used the stuff. But I will check back to read any interesting tidbits. I have seen the guild it gives and it is beautiful.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you."
Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Instacol is a two step process. The componants are water based. There is a first step that gets brushed on, and can be left on for quite some time if desired before the activator gets brushed on. This size will produce a surface gild that rivals the brillience of burnished gold on glass. In many applications it's too bright for sign work. You wouldn't be able to read letters gilded in this manner because it's too bright. It works great in coves around borders or on decorations or finials. The product with instructions are available from Daddy Finegold @ Esoteric Sign Supply.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6805 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
All the other posts are right on so I thought I would add some more info. Not to confuse things further but there is another type of water size for gilding. It is used over burnishing clays and rabbit skin glue as an activator in "traditional gilding". That type of gilding is for interior uses such as picture frames, molding, sconces, trunions and the like. The process indeed produces a very bright gild which is polished to varying degrees with agate burnishers. This is the method which has been somewhat simplified with the patented Instacol process. There are many good texts on that process as well and a video on traditional and Instacol done by Bill Adair at the time I did my videos. Bill was the restorer for the Smithsonian now on his own with a private enterprise and a true expert.
Thanks for the book plug, I did indeed update Ray's original text, twice, and always tip my hat to him for leading the way, though he would hardly recognize much of the current edition. I have kept most of his basic process and illustrations to maintain much of the look and feel, however. For the most part, water size gilding on surface is not appropriate for signs both due to durability and burnish. Waterbased sizes have improved and theoretically should have good durability but have yet to be proven by the test of time.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com
Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic