posted
One thing I've seen in other shops and at meets is varying techniques in brush lettering. What I'm talking about is how the painter builds a letter. Some folks will use a small brush and create the outline of the letter, then fill with paint - I'm told this is a technique common to union training and technical schools. My teacher taught me to practice one-stroke letters, so my formal styles are a variant of those. Essentially that means using a relatively larger quill to build a letter from the inside out, so to speak. This topic is more difficult to describe than I expected! so I hope I got my point across.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks for the opportunity to share brush techniques. I also build from the inside out as the width opf the brush determines the "stroke size" commonly used on my Window SPLASH lettering. On the other end.I Know a person that lays out BOTH sides of the stroke,in order to "fill" in. Seems to me,that is the reasoning for making brushes different sizes to start with!!!! Recently(at Duck Soup)a race car was lettered with sponsors using the "chicken scratch" lay out method.While doing the actual lettering with(1)one size brush. Wider stroke letters done using the heel of the brush.Smaller stroke via the tip. Excellent job by two masters,Monte and George Perkins. (photos available) Hope this helps Good post Cam
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Cam....are you talking about large letters when you speak of 'outlining and filling in'? That would be the only time I would do that. For handlettering......I just pick the size brush and let it flow...........the more pressure the wider the stroke.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
As an apprentice I saw some guys using the outline method and was repromanded for trying to use it. I was taught to use as large a brush as I could for the thin strokes and build the letter with that. For one stroke letters I was always handed a tool that looked way larger than what I would have chosen. Once it's figured out how to control the first third of the brush everything else seems to follow. As far as building the letter, I learned to pay more attention to the negative shapes I was creating. Like the shape inside the O would be what I'm looking at not the O. We always worked from scratch layouts and I was taught that the scratches were more to show me where not to put the letter than where to put it. Seems like we're getting to some nitty gritty basics.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Pretty much what has been said so far. I started with flats because they seemed easier to use getting the chisel edge. Then, for no good reason, I switched to quills eight or nine years ago.
Letter forming technique was learned from the method shown in Matthews book, A Sign Painting Course-- left vertical stroke first, twist brush so end of stroke comes to a point, then right vertical stroke, twist for a point the same way, cross-stroke at bottom to square the end. The drawback always seemed to me that the paint had to be over-thinned to get that bottom cross-stroke.
After a while, I started to fine-line tape the top and bottom of a line of copy, and pull the brush across the tape. Nice, square ends, and less thinning. Go back in and finish off the tops and bottoms of round letters after tape removal.
This works best on sans-serif styles, but , it also works well if you are doing a serif style that has a square type of serif.
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I was taught to use the largest possible brush for the letter style at hand & as Rick stated it often looked to me the brush suggested was alot larger than needed. The method I was taught was closer to the single stroke that Cam refers to than the fill in method he described. The objective of this was to create the letter with the least amount of strokes & the mastery of those. Not to get off subject here but I've been wondering lately & this seems like a good place to bring the subject up,why, when questions are asked here by new folks to the trade do we not refer them to lettering textbooks? I was taught in art school that there is probably a textbook out there for any artistic endeavor you choose to follow. I personally remember reading Helm Wotzkow's book & the section of sign painting manuals from the sixties that had reference chapters on the formal shaping of each of the letter styles roman,gothic & script. In each of these there was a paragraph or page addressing the shape & characteristics of each letter both capital(majiscule) & little letters(miniscule). After addressing the shapes of letters the spacing & layout was adressed. Seems to me this would be an excellant begining for most novices using brushes and or the keyboard.
[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: timi NC ]
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Alright, Rick, yes this may seem nitty gritty, but it sure helps me. Otherwise, I am limited to fill in methods using pounced letters from the computer. Yes I practice, but don't really have any local feedback or instruction. What I paint is usually through a stencil mask. Mr. Timi, Please give me a couple of titles of the books to which you are referring. I have only Begelson's ABC's of Lettering. I'm really interested in something a little more indepth in forming letters of 3 or 4 lettering styles, rather than general on a whole bunch of styles. Any suggestions would be gladly accepted.
posted
How about some referance material for the guys wanting to learn that might explain the reasoning for stroke sequence? Timi, I assume that book might cover this?
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6806 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Boy these recent brush posts sure beat the OT ones Timi, I've read that book too, sure went into detail! I learned like a lot of others to use the biggest possible brush and to have the brush form the letter wherever possible. I can definately paint a better "O" than I can draw one. In my prime I could do a pretty decent single stroke letter 12" to 14" tall. Timi has some huge flats that will do twice that! Pat, the "Chicken Scratch Chevelle" was definately a fun time. Roy Frisby and Old Paint also took part. Roy, or maybe Monte took my chicken scratch scratch layout of the drivers name and layed down a really beautiful script, right out of the brush
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I'm not too sure about the title but I know the book is a textbook written on the art of hand lettering by Helm Wotzkow. Another good book on just about general aspects of the trade is the book on signwritng by Bill Stewart,although the measurements & some of the terms used are metric & UK english. I really liked the Signs of the Times book Sign Painting beginner to professional. Several of these books are out of print but if you can locate one it is well worth your reading. Maybe some owner of these books out of print might be able to make copies of some sort available to you.
Maybe someone else has some good titiles they can refer to you also,...I personally have lost & or loaned out all the copies I could find of trade manuals over the years to past employees for training purposes. Rick,...one of the best books I ever read on lettering strokes was an old speedball booklet that came with a set of showcard nibs.
[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: timi NC ]
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
way back in the Dark Ages, when I was young, my brother worked in a sign shop. Ol' Benny Black was from Russia and spoke with a thick accent, but was a great instructor. EVERYTHING that came out of his shop was PERFECT! First a pounce pattern was made, then all letters were outlined with a small quill, then filled in with a larger one.
I also started that way, until, one day I bought a set of Speedball Pens, and read the booklet that was included with them! (As Timi described) It had a section showing how to stroke letters with a brush! Very basic lettering techniqes, with full width of the letter strokes. I tried it!
Ye! GADS! It was easier and faster!
Don't know what the newer Speedball booklets are like (mine was about 1955 vintage), but worth looking into!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
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Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
same as the rest..........biggest brush posible for the job. I only use quills, ocasionally a flat if the letters start gettin' over foot or so high. I'm into the "chicken scratch" method. First lettering book was dick bird's......a good old fellow minnesotan.........
posted
The Atkinson book shows various one-stroke techniques. In doing any lettering less than 12 inches tall, I usually work with as big a brush as I can handle and then square out the ends and corners. Thick and thins work from the 'ten to four' rule, like the clock for the thick strokes. I always amazes me when I see a well painted sign with the thick and thins backwards.
Back to the fill-in thinking...It seems faster to work in the letter body first and then do the outsides. Quills vs. flats? I use both, but the flats have a squareness for the ends that sometimes I prefer. I only use tape for the small stuff.
Now for the big stuff. I have mastered doing most of my splashes with a nine inch roller (which took guts to really master). I find it evens up the look and causes the white base to be more even. They go faster, too. It does take arm muscles, though. For doing 36" tall letters, nothing beats a 9' roller with only snap lines top and bottom. I divide the length into the number of letters (m,w at 1.5 and i at .5 with the spaces at roughly .75). I find this works alot better than trying to match the letters to the exact window sizes and let the mullions vanish, visually. I do not paint the mullions. Rollers are easy, but the real skill is doing Helvetica with no pattern in two inch, when you have way too many letters for the space. Thank god for the exclamation points, to pick up the extra at the end, if done right!
Now the real test comes in doing small script backwards...or finding those special brushes with spell-check!
-------------------- Preston McCall 10305 Eby st. Overland Park, KS 66212 text: 5056607370
Posts: 1562 | From: Overland Park, KS | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Like most of the previous replys, I was taught to use the single-stroke method of hand lettering. The Speedball book still has a couple of nice instructional pages on how to execute the proper brush strokes. They show a Roman style alphabet, and also an Egyptian style letter. Another very good book is "The Basiks of Lettering" by Bill Boley. It shows how to combine various basic lettering strokes to form a variety of alphabets. The script styles illustrated in this book are absolutely among the best that I've ever seen. Incidentally, Mike Stevens also credited this fellow with being a major influence on him when he was developing his "style".
Another technique that I sometimes use, particularly for scripts, is to use a fully loaded brush. This makes the ends of the letters somewhat rounded, but really adds to the speed with which they can be executed.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ?
posted
The Essentials of Lettering cirica1912 explains in DETAIL Subjects from Letter Construction to Letters in Design.Covering the evolution of letters from Egyptian through Phoenician,Greek and Roman forms.From which we derive our letters via the Trajan Column. I feel that if you UNDERSTAND how,why,and relation of letters.The "brushing" part becomes easier to accomplish known to us as STROKES.
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If I understand the topic right, Cam's talking about what I always called "built up stroke" lettering, as opposed to "flood stroke" lettering. I only use flood stroke for scripts and casuals. Rigid letters that need precision widths are handled with MUCH smaller brushes. I would paint a one inch wide stroke with nothing larger than a #4 quill that I can press down with, let it fan out, and build up to my stroke width. Not outlining and filling in, but like Bill said:
quote:left vertical stroke first, twist brush so end of stroke comes to a point, then right vertical stroke, twist for a point the same way, cross-stroke at bottom to square the end.
Then do the right vertical stroke, then any cross cross strokes or rounded strokes. I never thought about it being slower, and I don't think it is. It's faster for me because I always feel in control, so I move confidently from letter to letter with very few wipe-offs.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
timi pretty much summed it up for my experience.
"I was taught to use the largest possible brush for the letter style at hand."
i am strictly a "pattern signpainter" (not like some of you guys here)
the fewer strokes the more fluid smaller lettering appears. however, large lettering (2') i would cut in the letter still with the biggest brush possible regardless of lettering flats or fitches, then fill in the volume of the lettering with a nice bulletin brush.
posted
Cool thread. I guess I'm the weird one in that I never even saw another guy paint a sign until years after I actually started doing it for a living myself. So, I was completely self-taught. And what I discovered was that I should use the largest brush I could for the size lettering I was doing (small part of the stroke), and add thickness and flare to the heavier parts. I guess you could call it a two-stroke letter. At first I didn't even make guidelines, and went from that to making patterns. I didn't like the slowness of the pattern approach, so I soon abandoned that and settled for making top & bottom lines and marks for the spacing (single marks for the letters only) and have done it that way ever since.
posted
Just as a follow-up on my earlier post--- what Joe Rees was referring to with a built-up letter, I try to use as wide a brush as I can get away with on any of my letters. Say for a 1 inch stroke go for a #10 or 12 quill, and really lay the paint to it. This is where the tape comes in, in that you don't have to futz with thinning to get that cross-stroke.
Most thing is don't go wider than the narrow stroke when choosing the brush, tho' it is possible to do a narrow element with a wide brush.
The other thing I think one needs to be careful about when using tape at top/bottom is when forming the loop of say a "P" be careful that your curve starts and ends in smooth fashion. Granted there are alphabets designed for tape use where that transition is abrupt, and this looks okay if you are consistent. It is when one is inconsistent that I think the visual clinkers appear.
Just my 2 cents.
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA
Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I've located a complete list of E.C, Matthews books on the National Signpainter Museum. I have not been able to locate any that can be described as good condition. Most are missing quite a few pages. In the meantime, I've ordered Atkison's will keep looking for some of the older texts. This is the list: http://www.signmuseum.com/exhibits/bio/mattsix.html
posted
I have always mixed my paint in what we call "Thumb Pots" (Leave it alone Monte =) or cups as you guys seem to prefer.
I find that the advantge is in being able to fill the brush thoroughly so I can go close to completing the whole letter with as few reloads as possible.
When my brush is full, I will first lay down the bulk of the paint into the centre of the letIer stroke as a kind of reserve and I guess I am using that reserve in a similar way you guys use a pallette, I will work the brush through it spreading it out as far as practicle and shaping the brush as I go, then I will tackle the edges and top and bottom once the shape and quantity of paint is about right.
Then I will cross hatch the whole area in a kind of figure 8 pattern, skirting the outer edges to bring all the paint into a thin even film.
You gotta work fast here in the tropics, most of the year your paint is about dry before you get it off the brush.
RobC
"Reality is just a Pigment of your imagination"
I find that this technique gives me speed and better coverage , but you gotta make sure every stroke is accurate so you dont have to go over the work more than absolutely necessary.
-------------------- Rob Clark Rob Clark Design 11 Lassig st Moore Park Queensland Australia 0741598092
Posts: 421 | From: Australia | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I was very lucky to have gone to a show card and fine lettering school in NYC. There we were taught to do only one stroke lettering and memorize the entire alphabets of many styles of letters so that there was no stopping to look up how this letter was supposed to look or that one. Even though we were taught with water colors and sable brushes, you could use any type of paint or brush once you knew the basicis. The main idea of one stroke lettering was to get the job done quickly. Show cards were inexpensive and if not done quickly, you were loosing money. I couldn't believe my eyes when a sign man demonstrated what he called knock out lettering by looking in the book for the shape of each letter he painted. Can you imagine how long it would take him to do a sign?
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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