posted
I, too, use latex paint rather often and apply vinyl lettering. This weekend I ran into a problem that I just can't figure out. I painted 2 MDO panels, 2-tone Burgandy and White, w/ high gloss ext. latex (Behr Premium). On the brugandy half of the panel is white vinyl copy, and on the white half of the panel is burgandy and black vinyl copy. Painted the panels on Monday and let them sit until i got around to them again on Friday. Go to apply the vinyl graphics and everything is fine until I go to apply the burgandy vinyl onto the painted white half of the board. Letters would not stick. The black vinyl on the same half of the board adhered like a champ. I tried a heat gun but the burgandy vinyl just kept lifting. I figured since the other colors were sticking fine that the burgandy vinyl i had might have gotten too old or something. So today I go and buy a new roll of burgandy, different brand (Gerber). Get back to shop, load up the plotter and recut all the burgandy. Guess what! Won't stick! I cleaned the board before i reapplied the vinyl, tried the heat gun again, no dice. I cut scraps from other colors of vinyl in my shop and they all stick just fine, just not the burgandy (2 different brands, mind you, Gerber & Arlon).
Did i mention that i have done around 20 of these signs for the same customer, with the exact same materials and have never run into this problem? They are all holding up just fine.
So, I cleared off the white half of the panel and recoated with one shot today. Will try again tomorrow.
Has this ever happened to anyone else? anyone know why it would happen?
later
------------------ MacElite, aka John Rodgers Prodigy Sign Systems Atlanta, GA
Posts: 58 | From: Lawrenceville, GA, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Sorry, I have no idea why you got this problem. Sometimes the sign Gods have to make sure you're not getting too comfortable.
I suspect it was not the vinyl but something in or on the paint in that area. Somebody wiped it down with a rag that had silicone or some other contamination either before painting or after painting??? Something got into your paint can and tainted it?
Recoating with enamel should certainly solve the vinyl sticking problem, as long as the enamel sticks! That's a head scratcher.
Try the same paint on another panel and see if vinyl sticks to it. If not, toss that can. Anybody else got any ideas?
posted
I recently had the same problem doing a couple of 4x8's a customer had painted. Some of the vinyl stuck like flypaper and some would not adhere at all. I used some heat and told the owner before we even started that we should use Alumalite or something similar. Well 2 days after it was up some big blocks of vinyl started curling. Grrrr...
The first thing we did was use some adhesive on the portions that were curling then we put an epoxy paint sealer over the entire sign. So far it looks like it is doing the trick but a real pain. The owner wants me to do more signage and said he will let me purchase and prep all the material so we don't have this problem anymore.
------------------ Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
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OK, i repainted the area in question with One Shot. Let it dry over night and reapplied the graphic this afternoon. No Problem. I have sent the paint in question to the FBI labs in Quantico Va. for further examination. My theory is that there are forces beyond my control conspiring to get me.
Seriously tho, my guess is that the paint got contaminated since the last time i used it. There is no way that the surface got wiped with a oily rag or silicone or whatever, unless it was that nite last week that i got real drunk and lathered my body in baby oil and rolled around all over my shop. My memory is kinda foggy on that. More likely is that my shop has been infiltrated by gremlins, and i have subsequently taken up arms and stand watch all through the night hoping to bag one of these vermin. I will be accepting donations of coffee and espresso beans to aid in my fight. Wish me luck!
------------------ MacElite, aka John Rodgers Prodigy Sign Systems Atlanta, GA
Posts: 58 | From: Lawrenceville, GA, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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One suggestion would be to clear coat with a brush on 100% acrylic latex clear (Maximum or another brand) over BOTH colors, then apply the vinyl. It goes on milky looking then dries crystal clear. Just a thought. Thanks for the "heads up"!
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA
Get To A Letterhead Meet This Summer! See you there! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Latex varies widely but basically they are coatings, not paint. During the drying process, some ingredients float to the surface which can cause a problem with vinyl adhesion. This problem is unpredictable as two finishes from the same can can cure differently. They also do not cure with a surface film as do enamels, lacquers, acrylics and urethanes. This is not a problem for painted walls and the like but for secondary applications, it is deadly. An example of the phenomena is what is advertised for the washability of latex wall paint and that fingerprints, crayon, kid prints et al will not stick and clean off easily. The mistry ingredients are not the same for every formula but include: silicone, latex, synthetic oils, plasticizer, flow enhancing glycerides, alcohol solvent blends and many others.
------------------ Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio Greeley, Colorado, USA kent@smithsignstudio.com
Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I, too, use a lot of Behr Premium 100% Acrylic Latex paint. Haven't had a problem with it at all. But my question is: What are the differences between Acrylic Latex and Acrylic Enamel paints. Kent Smith indicated that latex paints do not cure with a surface film like acrylic or enamel paints do. I'm confused! Are there Acrylic paints and Latex paints as well as Acrylic Latex? Can anyone explain? Please?
------------------ Mike"Spud"Kelly theSignWorx Ashburnham, MA 978.827.4439
"Your reputation is made by others; your character is made by you."
Posts: 367 | From: Westminster, MA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Like most everyone else, your problem has got me stumped, but I thought of one possible answer.
I can't imagine that burgandy vinyl would have a diffferent adhesive than any other color. You mention that the black stuck fine, so I am assuming that you applied it before you tried the burgandy. I'm wondering if somehow the substrate became contaminated either during or after the application of the black.
Did you use an application fluid on the black, or use some kind of cleaner after you applied the black. Possibly even more important, what kind of rags did you use to wipe off the surface before you began with the burgandy? Shop rags, particularly blue windshield towels can often contain wax, silicone, or other contaminates that could effect adhesion.
A quality application fluid like Rapid-Tac won't contaminate the surface and cheap generic paper kitchen towels are usually a safe bet to use as wipes.
Just a thought on a perplexing situation.
------------------ Jerry Mathel Jerry Mathel Signs Grants Pass, Oregon signs@grantspass.com
Posts: 916 | From: Grants Pass, OR USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
It makes no sense that the burgandy vinyl ( two different brands ) is somehow the problem but if all other colors of scraps stuck fine doesn't that rule out contamination or a paint problem? Could it be possible the brands are different but the manufacturer is the same and these rolls are from the same batch? If everything sticks but burgandy there has to be something about the burgandy.
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I too suspect some kind of contamination, perhaps from the latex itself and rising to the surface more slowly than the area where the black was applied. It could have been pread from one spot on the surface, merely by wiping or handling. I also trust commercial application fluids to not make matters worse and have seen many home made concoctions ruin vinyl adhesion. There are different latexes and the superior types are acrylic latex. As a group, they all share the same basic formulations. The acrylics are added to simulate a top set film that we are used to in other paints and are more UV resistant pigments. In advanced formulas (commercial grade especially primers in our industry), the acrylic can also be a resin. They also are used to add texture to the surface of primers for better intercoat adhesion. After 17 years of fielding tech questions and paint problems for Chromatic, the single most frequent failure I encountered was vinyl on latex. I have never had a failure over enamel, urethane or lacquers which could be attributed to the paint finish. I way this knowing that many have had good success using latex as a based coat, I just think there are unpredictabilities that I would not risk.
------------------ Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio Greeley, Colorado, USA kent@smithsignstudio.com
Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I know this probably isn't the problem, but a body man friend of mine says that protectants such as Armor All if used within ten million miles of any kind of painting or graphics etc. will mist in the air and ruin anything you are trying to do. Even if you don't see the 'mist' there are millions of particles of silicone floating around in the air. 'course, this is a no brainer, and most of you probably already know this, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents worth .
------------------ Dave Utter D-utterguy on chat Sign Designs Beardstown, Il. utter@casscomm.com
Posts: 777 | From: beardstown, illinois, usa | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Wow, I'm suprised to see this many people respond to my dilema. I really appreciate the education. I have learned a bit but still have a couple of things to ask.
First though, in response to some of your questions, i wiped the board down, right before applying vinyl, with denatured alcohol and a plain brawny paper towels (they are the lint free ones with no print on them). It was about ten mintues between wiping the board down and applying the vinyl. In that time i did not spray anything or use any type of chemical around the board. I applied the vinyl dry, did not use any type of homemade app fluid concoction.
OK,here are a couple of questions:
1. Kent, you make reference to latex and enamels, the paint i used was an "Exterior Hi-Gloss Acrylic Latex Enamel". I am not by any means a very knowledgable person when it come to the finer points of paints and am constantly confused by these terms. Many people refer to either latex or enamel, and then over here you have Latex enamels, can some one explain this to me?
2. The only reson i started using latex was for this customer. Burgandy is their main color and any time I used One Shot this color just didn't last outdoors. Downright ugly after a year or less, down here. Chalky and faded. The latex paint in this color has done great for me. Is there some other paint to use that is better than my latex, for use with vinyl, and that won't degrade so quickly outdoors?
Inquisitively, John
------------------ MacElite, aka John Rodgers Prodigy Sign Systems Atlanta, GA
Posts: 58 | From: Lawrenceville, GA, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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