posted
I just got a call from a guy wanting some letting done on their canopy (so & so tire & auto with phone #) I'm thinking $125. Owner tells me a shop out by the race track will do it 30 a side. He also mentioned that the same company cutout all #'s and copy for his race car for $100! He said this shop does all the race cars (and I can see why) and that they are super busy.
A couple of months ago I put the #'s on a race truck and the owner said he got them from the same shop by the race track (window, both doors 28" tall, and roof 20", driver name on both sides) all for $50!
Sounds like this guy is pulling an Amazon.com to get everyone's business...
------------------ Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
I have been lettering race cars for longer then I can remember. Stick to your guns, charge your price, and the work will come your way. I have dealt with competition like you mentioned many times, most are out of business now. They will make the "cookie cutter" decals for next to nothing.
The biggest compliment I get from my racing customers is that my designs are unique. When there are 30 cars on the track at once, car owners and sponsors want something that draws attention. If you can provide that service, then you become more valuable to your customers, present and future.
Don't sell yourself short, and get your price. Maybe the jobs you lose are the ones that would have made you pull your hair out anyway!
Good Luck!
MC
------------------ Mike Clayton MC Graphics Barnegat, NJ http://www.visualnoise.com/mcg/ mike@visualnoise.com
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused"
Posts: 508 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Apr 1999
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I have found most of these quickie vinyl shops are using intermediate vinyl. Three years the stuff will be falling off. I don't stock any of the crap and if they want it they can go get it elsewhere. I do a lot of racecar stuff. Do the good jobs let the rest go.
------------------ Rob Larkham RL Graphic D-Sign Chester, MA rldsigns@aol.com
Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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brian..i call em.."idiots with a computer and vinyl cutter who think they are a sign maker"..got tons of em here....had one here doin 2' x 8' banners for $35...aint around anymore....dont do much stock cars here...to many of these dummys givin the stuff away so they can see their name on a race car...i had my shop, i put a banner out STOCK CARS HAND LETTERED $125.00...in 6 mos. i did 1....and we have 2 dirt tracks and 1/2 mile blacktop....as for using intermediate...works well on stock cars(they only last 1 season), banners, corplast signs, magnetics...all temp signs...not made to last more then a yr.....and i ve got intermediate out there thats 3 yrs old and still looks good....there is junk intermediate and good stuff...sparcal/avery/gmi is good...mactac, ameriban..oracal..bad...for any longevity.
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
[This message has been edited by old paint (edited June 13, 2001).]
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I've run into that. I did a few cars for this season. Had 1 guy talk to me about everything he wanted. I saw him a week later and asked when he would be ready to go with the car. Said he was having someone else do it because they worked out a "sponsorship" deal. Geez. I've seen (and installed) some of the work this other guy has done. Ick is all I can say. I think he is one of these people that unless it's a stock font or a logo/vector art he can steal somewhere he can't do it. I think all he does is vinyl lettering. I am fairly certain the only thing I've ever seen his work on is race cars (and not really that many, certainly not at giving it away) for him to make any $. (and he thinks EVERYTHING has to be holographic.)
My name goes (somewhere) on all the cars I do. Some of these guys are all concerned with price and getting a deal. To fix them, I add 25% to the price, then show them a 25% discount. I still get the same $ and they think they got something for nothing.
I am new, I will admit it. I have a lot to learn. But I try to make every thing I do look good, something I would be proud to show off. Now, I do use a lot of intermediate 3 mil vinyl on race cars. The tracks around here, the whole body will need to be re-done next year anyway and the 3 mil resists tearing better than other stuff when they rub up against each other. (and trust me, here the concern is how it will withstand rubbing another car, not whether it'll be faded in a year because it won't be there in a year!)
------------------ Chris King Paper Works & Graphix Indiana, PA
Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Sorry, I have to disagree with you on the intermediate vinyl use. It is not "crap." In fact I have signs lasting longer than the 4-5 year on the projected life span.
Used it on my own van....4 years, still looks great and since I will be trading soon, guess I saved some money, huh?
When you need a sign to last 10 years use HP, when you need a sign to last 5-6 use a good brand of intermediate. We are currently using Oracal Brand intermediates for their high gloss, longer life, and weedability.
In the 21 years of our business, we never had to replace intermediate vinyl on any sign or vehicle. We were using Spar-Cal intermediate until it went out of business.
There are some vinyls that fade or curl in a few years. And you are right...they are "crap", however they were probably never ment to be more than 2 year products. So even those vinyls can be used on temporary event signs that only need to last a couple of weeks. We use to do tons of those event signs for large corporations. They threw the signs in the dumpster as soon as the event was over. Putting HP vinyl on those types of signs would be very idiotic.
Just FYI
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Get To A Letterhead Meet This Summer! See you there! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I just refuse to stock two kind of vinyl. I tell people upfront that I use the best materials there are. If they want cheap they came to the wrong place. 95% of the race car lettering I do is on sprintcars with the big wings on top. Those wings are put together with rivets. Intermediate is a pain in the #*$ to pack around those rivets. Maybe I'm wasting my $$$ but I refuse to use intermediate. But as long as there are people willing to use it, then I'm all set. I'll send em' your way.
------------------ Rob Larkham RL Graphic D-Sign Chester, MA rldsigns@aol.com
Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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If you did a 4x8 sign and for the sake of argument you use 20 square feet of vinyl. 3m high performance would cost you 74 cents per square foot. Avery intermediate would be 32 cents per square foot. Cost difference is $14.80 - $6.46 = $8.34. Mark the 4x8 up 8 bucks and give your customer the best product you can. Keeping in mind 20 square feet of vinyl on a 4x8 is alot.
------------------ Rob Larkham RL Graphic D-Sign Chester, MA rldsigns@aol.com
[This message has been edited by Rob Larkham (edited June 13, 2001).]
Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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Hey Brian.....I hear you loud and clear. The only thing you can do is build up a customer base of those customers who don't want just cheap, fast, and usually ugly. I have some customers that I have had for years who never ask me for a price before I start. It is getting harder and harder with all the ridiculous speedy sign companies opening everyday. I have let customers go, just because they expected their signs to be so cheap. You can't make any money in this business and be happy unless you charge what you want and get it. If you work too cheaply you will not be happy. Let the idiots down the street do them for their crazy low prices. Let them be the unhappy ones. (and the ones working their asses off) If it gets too crazy......you can always do other things. Life is an adventure......
posted
The race car market just isn't what it used to be Way too many folks out there seeking the glory at any price. Don't worry this guy won't be around long. On the down side there will probably be two or three to take his place.
As far as the intermediate vinyl goes, I use quite a bit of it with very good results. Personal experience shows it holds up better than HP on a full bodied stock car. I wouldn't want to use it on a sprint car though, course I wouldn't want to use VINYL on a sprint car, fitting paint on the tail tank is hard enough
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Hey I didn't read all the posts, but I glanced at the intermediate vinyl thing.
NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE. I use Cal Plus & have had very good results so far. But then again I've been in business a little over 2 years. Still my signs have outlasted many others.
But honestly, I agree with you on not knowing how they make money. I mean, is it Credit? What is it? There's a guy around here that just got a shop, (which pays a ton in rent) also bought a brand new Ram Van, & got an Edge 2. I'm not jealous or anything, don't get me wrong, cause all his signs look the same.
But...Ahh, the hell with it. I just don't get it myself!
------------------ Marcano-Welch Signs Luquillo, Puerto Rico 787-889-6608
Posts: 2287 | From: Luquillo, Puerto Rico, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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When a customer walks in my shop and spouts off about how someone down the road is cheaper, I ask them straight out..."what are you doing here then"? some laugh...some get serious ...some leave...But all know where we stand!
When people are "shopping" it's easy to tell after a while. I send them to the "cheap sign guy"...after all if we keep him busier than hell with the "crap cheap" signs the good customers with the money will be dealing with me...and the "cheapo" thinks I'm the greatest guy in the world for sending him all the work. OOOPS the secret is out! oh well!
------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
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ok rob..lets do the math this way: roll of 20"x 50 yd. red avery...$70.00. roll of 20"x 50 yrd avery hp red $235.95....do i need to go any futher? i bought a new roll of red the other day...1st job off the roll 12 ft, paid for the rest off it......dave is right, i got jobs that are 5-7 years old with sparcal...and they still look good....iam with geo to..paint looks better on race cars...hehehehehehhe...
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
[This message has been edited by old paint (edited June 13, 2001).]
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Seems as if all them guys are " WILLING " to let you put your name on the car for a " discount" on the lettering.
How nice of them!
Yah I want to advertise on ya car man so I can attract other cheap, whiney chiselers.
Forget it they aren't worth it.
And as fer the vinyl thing, I also carry one line, It's HP all the way. I order in the intermediate for interior jobs and when needed for exterior jobs.
On Trucks I only use 3m HP. Savings per job aint worth it.
I gain customers from shops that letter trucks with intremediate.
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Maybe offer a little more like a little air brushing or a shadow. Have a board set up with the different styles and show them. Maybe they'll go with the outline for the right price.
I've found the cream comes to the top. Will they be around in the next couple of years? I think every business has this - we call them the McDonald's of the industry. Now I probably offended the Big Mac.
Hang tough and stick to right price! I believe if we don't it will hurt the industry as a whole. The other day I had a customer say."oh you just put it in the computer right?" I replied, "Yeeeessssss; . ... all I have to do is turn my computer on and that's it - poof; magic; money just starts rollin' in the door." He laughed - a lot. So did I.
Di
------------------ Summit Signs Sellersville, PA summitsigns@erols.com
Without obstacles, life's path is boring.
[This message has been edited by Diane and David Malesky (edited June 13, 2001).]
posted
Old Paint- Same here! If I use the first 12 feet off the HP roll on a race car. I've paid for the roll also. I average $250 to $500 for a sprint car. I have to look two peolpe in the face, my customer and myself in the mirror every morning. I like to know I'm giving them both the best I can. But know hard feelings toward anyone who chooses to use INT.
------------------ Rob Larkham RL Graphic D-Sign Chester, MA rldsigns@aol.com
Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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i also use hp...but i make as much as you off that roll of intemediate...and only spent $70. as for using hp.. i use that with jobs that require vinly to last more the 3 years....the diff here is the wisdom to know which i can use...that will come in time for you...what do you have for equipment, gerber?..i cut from corel & a roland and have been since 93..but hey iam just a poor ol southern boy...and my customers are the same......neither of usins know any better...hehehehehehehehehehe
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
[This message has been edited by old paint (edited June 14, 2001).]
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Old paint- my other problem is the size of my business also doesn't warrant having two styles of vinyl hanging on the wall. I find that to be the biggest expense in my shop. I have about 36 colors of hp 24" hanging on the wall. I sure don't want to duplicate it in INT. Nuff said, two different business philosophies. I'm presently running Flexi letter with a Roland 24" camm1. I will be upgrading to flexi sign or sign plus shortly. Is it easy to cut from corel? What program did you need to to it? Rob
------------------ Rob Larkham RL Graphic D-Sign Chester, MA rldsigns@aol.com
Posts: 517 | From: Chester, MA | Registered: May 2001
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corel..is all you need...and hook up your plotter to the printer port, d/l driver from www.rolanddga.com and set it up to cut...no bridge program needed. only thing corel wont do is panel....and anything usually bigger then 22"..i paint it....i can letter with a brush, a stock car, applying 3 numbers, in 3 colors, and 2 sponsors names in freehand in 3 hours....only vinyl i use is the name over the drivers door, small numbers on rear, front and windshield...
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I NEVER use INTERMEDIATE One-Shot...only the best for me and my brushes hahaha
------------------ Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"
Posts: 1002 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I quote race cars one time ,if i hear too high or so and so will do it for,we are done doing business,i have a auto store next to me and these clowns will pay him what ever it takes to run faster,yet want me to beat all the others,not only no But #ell no!!
posted
You folks are a riot and great all in the same breath.
Geo - I think you said it best. Those racers will spend whatever it takes at the auto parts store but when it comes to making the cars look good their like birds. I think we should tell them it will make their car faster with the higher performance vinyl...
I admit I'm using intermediate on a car out at the track simply because the owner told me he plans on repainting it next year. Also this isn't a Hi-buck car and it's gonna get smashed up. He's already got tire marks from some other racer on it so not to worry.
I use premium on all vehicles that will be out on the real road but am testing some of the intermediates on my vehicles just to see how they hold up, shrink, etc. I'm always testing different products for myself so I can better inform the customer.
I use Corel 9 and Co-cut Pro which works great. I also use Iwata eclipse, HP, & RG2. Those darn stripin brushes have got me by the tail tho. I guess I just need to practice, practice, practice.
Thanks for all your responses and keep up the good work :-)
------------------ Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
posted
My 2 cents. I got a request to bid a job to do 3 3' x 6' signs, and strip and re-letter 13 pick-up trucks and stake bodies. 3-color logo. I start thinking, I want this job, so cut a little break, so I say $125 for the signs, and $150 for each truck. He shows me a quote for $60.00 per sign, on aluminum, and $55 per truck. I said, "Wow, someone wants to go out of business!" The other quotes were for $187.00 per sign That's a little high. I don't thinh the other guy will be around for too long. :-)
------------------ Shawn Schrader Graphic Zone Whitehall, PA shawnmmx@enter.net
Posts: 9 | From: Whitehall, PA 18052 | Registered: Jun 2001
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At times when my price is high I look at a customer and say, I don't believe it and if it is true then go their. I send crap work down the road. Won't deal with people that I don't like and that is very few. You have to really work at getting me to dislike you. So for these guy I raise the prices.
In pricing terms some of our stuff is low and some high. Some we do fast and others take a long time. Depends on customers demands, supplies and our experience doing that job. For us every customer is different than the last.
As far a vinyl goes I am considering switching over to 5 year stuff. It is getting better and at $75 bucks a roll... well you do the math.
Kevin Landry KnL Signs and Imaging Halifax NS
------------------ Kevin Landry KnL Signs Halifax NS knlsigns@hfx.eastlink.ca
posted
I'm gonna speak as a racer here. The point about the racers paying whatever it takes to go fast is often misunderstood. They pay whaever it takes because they have to! In the case of the graphics, they don't have to. I'll use my sons car for example. For two years we were uncompetitive at one track. We need a certain type of carburetor. This carburetor cost roughly $600. I called all over the country price shopping finding no more then a $20 difference in price. Now the lettering on this car would sell for about $600 easy, yet I know right off the top of my head somebody that would do it for less than $300, I'm sure if I spent some time I could get it done for next to nothing if not nothing! The point I'm trying to make is the racers pay the high prices for their hard parts cause they HAVE TO. They dicker and look for deals on the lettering because they CAN! These practices have been around for years. These guys wouldn't be such a pain if there weren't fools willing to give away their work. The infighting that goes on amoung the "decal makers" as they call themselves makes me want to distance myself from the "trade" at times
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
Way too many folks out there seeking the glory at any price. Don't worry this guy won't be around long. On the down side there will probably be two or three to take his place.
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