posted
I know most people here consider themselves artists and was just wondering at what point do you become one? I produce signs with paint and vinyl and do painitngs with an airbrush. I don't consider myself an artist tho...especially with my airbrush paintings, they are all copied from photos, I may change the settings the original picture is in (like the picture posted) but the elements are still copied. So is it your own unique style that makes you an artist or is there some other thing that makes you take that title? Just curious
------------------ Neil White Sign Magic Melton, VIC Australia whitey@primus.com.au
[This message has been edited by whitey2 (edited June 11, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by whitey2 (edited June 11, 2001).]
Posts: 277 | From: australia | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I don't think you 'become' one. You're born with it. If you have to go to school to "learn" it, you're a mechanic.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
I am not too sure Pierre. I am sure some elements are present from early on but I think artists develop from influence, environment and desire also. As for a person who may not be purely creative but exemplary in their work, I like the term craftsman. A high compliment for any skilled person.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2786 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I agree with Pierre. I began drawing pencil portraits of family members when I was 6 or 7 years old...not stickmen drawings either.
And looks to me like you were born with it too! Just a thought, if you're bothered with copying others photographs, take a camera out there and take your own photos to copy. Norman Rockwell hired a full time photographer for his subject matter and just told him where to point the camera.
------------------ Don Coplen aka "SaintPete" Coplen Designs St.Petersburg, FL dcoplen@mindspring.com
------------------ HotLines Joey Madden,47 years in the Classic Art of Pinstriping Grants Pass, Oregon Learn something...... http://members.tripod.com/Inflite
posted
I've never considered myself an artist. Work like Neil's always leaves me drooling.
I like to call myself a signmaker. There was always some raw talent there for drawing, but I never got to study fine art. Over the years, thanks to Letterheads, I have been able to attend courses by Mike Stevens, Ken Millar, Keith Kneith and many, many others.
Being a signmaker isn't all that bad. I know how big a letter has to be to be read from a given distance, the importance of contrast, layout and enough tricks to consider myself a pretty good signmaker.
A couple weeks ago, someone told me to go get a job. Well....a mechanic cousin of mine who is starting his own shop asked me to design and paint his signs. This is the same guy that has been keeping our old van running the last few years. I owed him bigtime and this was a great chance to pay him back.
Here is the 4x8 that directs traffic down his road. I'll post the 3x22 fascia sign on the Portfollio Table when I get a good pic. Just between us here in Letterville, I really wish I had the artistic ability to do a better job on the cartoon. A better understanding of highlights and shadows would have helped. Overall, I was very pleased with the final result. Cousin Jay looks happy! It felt great to play with that brush again.
posted
I have posted on this topic before....as well as other art related posts.
I don't think we are "artists". I do think that we are "artistic" in our endeavours to make good signage. The term artist is thrown around very loosely. AS Steve says I think of us as signmakers, with an artistic flare. In life it seems that people bends towards arts or sciences, so I guess some are born with a certain artistic flare....I think that develops all thru life.
------------------ Henry Barker #1924 akaKaftan SignCraft AB Stockholm, Sweden. A little bit of England in a corner of Stockholm www.signcraft.se info@signcraft.se
Posts: 1552 | From: Stockholm, Sweden | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I never liked the term "artist" Sounds like you don't have a job. I think what we do would fall into the "illustrator" category. I don't even profess to being a signpainter half the time. hehehe Oh- by the way, Norman Rockwell was an illustrator.
------------------ Steve Barba is the proud owner, president, & sole employee of Sturgis Sign Works. "B0LT" on the chat room thing. 209 Oak Drive Sturgis SD 57785 sbarba2616@dtgnet.com 605-720-7667
Posts: 768 | From: Sturgis South Dakota | Registered: Nov 1998
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There seems to be much confusion between the words Artist and Craftsman.
We had this discussion before, and signmakers are craftsmen, even though they may br skilled at paint, design, or sculpting.
The difference is what the project is used for.
Is this going to be used for functional purposes or is it going to be used to sit on a stand, or hang on a wall to inspire a reaction? One is craft, the other is art.
Commercial Art, Fine art, Sign Art, all are creative endeavors, but the one thing stands out about sign art....there is no college degree, no piece of paper that says you are an "artisit" and therefore signmakers are not considered by the world in the same class as the fine arts. It doesn't matter that you posses great skills, if you don't have a piece of paper that says you endured so many years of useless study and beer drinking partying...you are basically screwed!
You can posess a Doctorate degree, not be able to creatate one thing, and be considered an artist. Or you can paint the most beautiful paintings the world has ever seen and because you didn't get the degree, that little piece of useless paper, it will be extremely hard to get the recognition and respect of the world as an "artist." It can be done...but it is very difficult.
It's a screwed up system,in my opinion, basically for the rich upper crust society to maintain their prominence and separtate themselves from the common folk.
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Get To A Letterhead Meet This Summer! See you there! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Ya know Dave-I like the term craftsman too, cept for one thing. My wife love to drag me to these craft shows, EEUUUGGGHHH! When I hear someone bill themselves as a craftsman, 9 times outta 10, thats what they do. As for your piece of paper point, I have 2 sisters that have that peice of paper, belive me, I do not rate. BUT- Theres a guy here who just bought a plotter,(t-shirt guy), and he is advertising that he does signs. He is not a sign guy, so I feel that he doesn't rate either,LOL. Human nature is weird deal.
------------------ Steve Barba is the proud owner, president, & sole employee of Sturgis Sign Works. "B0LT" on the chat room thing. 209 Oak Drive Sturgis SD 57785 sbarba2616@dtgnet.com 605-720-7667
Posts: 768 | From: Sturgis South Dakota | Registered: Nov 1998
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"It doesn't matter that you posses great skills, if you don't have a piece of paper that says you endured so many years of useless study and beer drinking partying...you are basically screwed!"
Useless study? I find your comments ignorant, and insulting to those of us that have studied and earned a degree. I don't consider my studies to be useless. In fact, they were the best investment in time I've ever made. It's not only my degree, by my investment in EDUCATION that has brought me to the top of my game. Once you stop learing, you stop growing as an artist. Reeducating yourself is one of the most important keys to success.
Its not only that "piece of paper", but the caliber of my work that helps command top dollar for my work. But when the client hears you spent 4 years study advertising and marketing, they have a little more respect for your knowledge and intuition, and that you're their ally in presenting a strategic advertising, not just "cool" lettering.
I've never understood why so many people are down on education here - especially a college education.
I doubt I'd have been able to get a book published or offer workshops without that "useless study."
And Pierre, you don't go to school to learn to be an artist, you go to school to hone your skills and make yourself a better one.
posted
I will agree with that. I started Kunstschule Westen Offenbach am Main to study graphic art. Got my degree in Graphics in 1970. Worked in West germany in a studio first before coming back here. Strangely enough, my first project was the Playtex 18 hour bra and girdle campaign. Second one was TicTac mints for Ferrero Company of Italy. Weird, huh? Anyway, it was a heck of a lot more than "honing", I can tell you. Tough school.
Point: If it's not there to start with, it's virtually impossible to "create it within you". Computer art is a bit different. It takes the ability to "see" when something's right. But that ability isn't going to let you illustrate it.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
Well in my case it first started out when I was a little kid sick in bed with the measles or one of those childhood sicknesses. I was stuck in bed and had a little chalk board that I would draw on with colored chalk. my dad made a big deal about my drawings and that encouraged me to draw more and more. soon I was onto " THE BIG SKETCH PAD". My very first subjects of choice where dinosaurs. when I was in middle school I was on the presidents fitness team( I've since strayed from those duties! ) and was fast becoming quite a good gymnist. I had plans to join the olympics and all! but then fate took ahold of my life and our family moved to another town where the high school didnt a gym so my art was the center of my interests and the rest is history. I knew when I actually visualized thefinal piece of work finished BEFORE I had picked up a brush. now art isn't something I do because i want to or need to to make a living, I do it because I have to...I only do what the little voices in my head tell me to do! it's in your blood, its a part of every fiber of your being.
------------------ Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, And Dance like no one's watching. Mike Lavallee Mike Lavallee's Pinstriping & Airbrush Art Everett, WA
[This message has been edited by Mike Lavallee (edited June 12, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Mike Lavallee (edited June 12, 2001).]
Posts: 449 | From: Everett, WA | Registered: Dec 1998
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I wasn't insulting or ignorant. I didn't make the system...that is the way it works! If the system doesn't work that way, I would like to hear from you how it does work! I put a kid through college...I know what goes on.
The "useless" education I am speaking of is all the courses you are made to take that have nothing to do with art. If Commercial Art is your Major....why do you need to take hours and hours of courses that are "useless." The College wants your money. Thats why!
You were going to be a great designer no matter if you went to college or not. You had the gift to start with.
But without that piece of paper....you can't get a job in ANY commercial art studio or advertising agency, let alone get any respect.
If you and one other artist were up for a job at a commercial art production studio, and the other guy was 10 times better than you but didn't have a college degree....he wouldn't get the job. Case Closed.
That is all I am saying. I'm not down on getting an college education. Please don't get all fired up over a few words and miss the point of the post. ( I say that with deep respect and certainly not to pick a fight )
The other side to this is that one is not considered a "craftsmen" unless he has served an apprenticeship in the sign biz or any other craft. That was a way to separate the "craftsmen" from the "fly by nights". That makes no sense either, sometimes.
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Get To A Letterhead Meet This Summer! See you there! 309-828-7110 drapersigns@hotmail.com Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
[This message has been edited by Dave Draper (edited June 12, 2001).]
Posts: 2883 | From: Bloomington Illinois USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I started drawing early on like everyone else except I never stopped. Certainly there is inborn ability as we all have our own unique gifts but I believe you must also work on them as well. I get rusty from time to time but then I see the improvement when I stick with it for a while. The term artist is subjective but to me I think art is maybe 25 percent talent and 75 percent perspiration.
By the way Steve, nice job on the sign...except you mispelled "center". ------------------ Artworks Olympia WA
[This message has been edited by Jim Upchurch (edited June 12, 2001).]
Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Dave Draper....the reason that colleges require you to take "useless" studies is not to make more money...it is to broaden your background. After WWII, there was a severe shortage of Engineers and Scientists, so colleges and universities "fast tracked" education by leaving out all the "extranious" studies. The rsult was that they produced a large nunber of graduates that were quite proficient at their jobs...BUT ...were a bunch of nerds and geeks! Life away from their jobs was a big zero! Take me as an example.. thanks to other sbjects , besides Chemistry, I went from being a Chemist, to an Aerospace Engineer, back to a Chemist as a Lab Director, and finally ...to my 1st love... a sine paneter!
As far as being an "artist" ?? Nahhh! "Arteeeste"?? maybe
------------------ Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA (714) 521-4810 ICQ # 330407 "SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Brushasaurus on Chat
Gladly supporting this BB !
Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I didn't finish school and really believe I missed out on some fundamental aspects that would help me view things differently. I didn't have a choice really but still would love to go back for some painting classes and art history. The classes I did take changed my view on most everything.
I don't think anyone is an accomplished artist. I think it is a lifelong journey to better your skills. Constant learning. Patience is the key and practice, practice practice!! Obviously, some are WAY ahead of others but is it a competition?
Of course, time is a factor in this. Sometimes mowing the grass gets in the way. That's life. It's all in the plan. I like mowing the grass.
Nice work!
Diane Summit Signs Sellersville, PA
------------------ Summit Signs Sellersville, PA summitsigns@erols.com
posted
I guess you could say I was born with a certain amount of artistic talent. I didn't know how little I knew until I went to art school after just one year of "regular" college. I was surrounded by people that were far more talented than me. And some weren't even that talented at all, but because they were determined to get better, they studied, listened, observed, and above all, practiced...and became excellent. So being an artist can be learned, but only with determination, like any skill. Over the years, I've taken more non-credit college courses in drafting, drawing, painting and photography, just for the FUN of it. You never stop learning. And I still have a long way to go.
posted
I would prefer craftsman, since it implies that there will be fincial justification for the finished product. Art for art's sake is definely for artists. I'm a few classes short of my Information Systems degree, as I'll be filling out some of my humanities requirements with some drawing and printmaking courses. At 48, I don't think it's to late top learn more. Grandma Moses didn't start painting until she was past 70 years old. She painted more than paintings. She must have been born with the talent, but had a hell of a lot of other stuff to do first.
posted
Gee - I just don't know where I fit in here. By most of these definitions late bloomers like me need not apply. Boy am I glad that I recently discovered some artist and calligraphy BB's - I am finding them much more inclusive and encouraging than this place has been lately.
------------------ "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less." * Lewis Carroll
Karen Tighe, Strandhill, Sligo in the Wild Wet West of Ireland.
mIRC = cafe_cruiser
Posts: 238 | From: Great Britain | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Who's excluding here? Everybody just seems to be struggling with a definition, that's all. What is Art? Now that will start something. I would think that would be 30 year old wonder bras. Pierre's got cases of 'em.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2786 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Guess my take on this is that I do not consider myself an 'artist' but others have given me that label. It is in the eye of those who's mouths say the word or minds see the work.
When i was very very small, I clearly remember my dad (noone in my family is artistic in the defined term) drawing on a piece of paper, a dog beside a dog house. This drawing was little more than a stick dog but it was magic to me. It literally sank straight inside me and changed me... that something could be created that wasnt there before... and this is when i was 2 at the most.
I love to paint, write, design... basically anything that can effect others feelings or mood. Because, the act of putting down on paper something inside me... some image or emotion, gives me the feeling of completion or wholeness. it is hard to explain. And I too paint inside my head before i pick up a brush... constantly.
My job as computer graphic designer gives me a broad range of subjects and directions. My schooling included no computers, but intensive design classes, studios, and workshops along with the other stuff.. geology, sociology, psychology, history, math.. along with the drinking, meeting people from different places, getting into trouble... etc... all of that knowledge base is what i have to pull from when i do designing or painting or whatever, now.
I do not do many signs, that you can see, but I have done many many of them in my mind and I love to see quality design from others that has that 'spark' of 'wholeness'.
As for Artists... The person who makes something wonderful was an artist when they created the piece, though they may not always fill the title. So I guess I know that 'Art' exists, so there must have been an artist present at the time it came to be. But, by no means is everything that person has done 'Art'. Are they an 'Artist'? No, but they have it in them to be.
Is the signsmith 'Artist' or 'Craftsman'? I would say 'Craftsman' by definition and 'Artist' those times when everything works perfect and something more than a sign is created.
------------------ --If you don't care where you are, you ain't lost.
Tony Potter Blind Mice and Company 285 38th St Dr SE, #3 Cedar Rapids, IA 52403 (319) 573-9001 www.blindmiceandcompany.com tonypotter@yahoo.com
posted
Well, Marcus.......I don't agree. Your abilities are what they are because it WAS in you from the beginning. Schooling just took a bit more digging to get it out of you. I still maintain that if the essence of the artist isn't within you from the get-go, schooling isn't going to make much difference. You had it right from the beginning, Mark.
Many of you here are artists of one kind or another. Illustrators, carvers, stripers, air brush artists, but ARTISTS! I'm not going to bow my head or tip my hat. I worked hard for my degree and I got it. I can cut heads with most any protrait engraver out there. I can flip chips with the best of the mural carvers. I'm a passable airbrush artist, and only passable because I let it slide for so many years. Most all of you guys are good at what you do and equal to most all of your competition or you wouldn't have survived as long as you have. Why all of this blushing humbleness? Why put the word "artist" in some mist shrouded cloak of sacred mystique? (Geez, Si. That was a good one) It isn't! Your art is realistic enough to make the public want to pay for it. Cut the crap. Most of us are artists. I know I am. It's paid my bills for 38 years.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
my education over the years has been keen observation and work experience.
as far as being an artist, to a certain extent i consider myself a sign artist. (i say that with humility, all ya have to do when you think you are doing great work....go to a letterhead meet.)
one can call me a sign painter, a sticky letter maker, etc.
to quote my father who turns 82 this weekend... "You can call me anything as long as you call me to the supper table."
posted
To me 'an artist' is someone who is passionate about their work. They can't get enough. I was an artist when I was a signpainter. I don't feel like an artist only doing vinyl signs.
posted
Yeah, well, Mark, your observation and experience DID polish off what was always underneath...........and you don't have to be humble. Enough people believe in your ability as an artist to keep the brew flowing. Beyond that..........who cares.
heh
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
posted
LOL...Finally a post created just for Lazy Edna and she's a "no show".
I too have always been a "replicator" but some original stuff has eaked out from time to time.Although I have never really considered myself an artist I put up with customers calling me one for years...one thing I won't tolerlate however is the guy that shows up every now and again and asks if I'm an "Arteest"...I always say, NO I'm a "Signpainter"... if that aint good enough for him he can do with out.(just the sound of the word "arteest" sounds insulting)
Now...some of my heros ARE artists and emulating them is sufficient for my artistic cravings!
------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
posted
Someone call my name in vein? Hey.. I've been busy, okay... buncha trucks all at once, and then there's all that beer that has to be drunk on a daily basis... But since you called me into this.... Art=that human creative endeavor that makes you THINK AND FEEL. Hopefully, it presents you with a new way of looking at your world and your approach to it. Science will continue to change the way in which we understand how our world works, and art will help us to understand what science is trying to tell us. I am very pro education, and feel that most classes taken in college are to make a person more "well rounded" in life. Sure there are some loser classes occasionally, but nothing is foolproof! Meanwhile.. I think I will go get my master's degree in Philosophy.. no.. wait.. Medieval Latin philosophy.. now THAT ought to be useful! hahahaha! LazyEdna
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
All is right with world at Letterville. LE finally responded. If she won't respond to an art post, what's next? Glenn passing by all the political and tax posts? Always a good topic.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posts: 2786 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Hi everybody. What an interesting debate. I think atistic ability is an inborn thing. It can be learned to an extent, but the real thing is like a fire in your soul, you have to create or die. I am proud to call myself an artist. That's all I've ever been. But I have been trying like hell to paint a decent sign since 1985. Anybody who has $$$ can go out & get a sign system & crank out vinyl. But someone who has an eye for layout & design can crank out a better vinyl sign. I think, as signmakers, we are both artists, illustrators, craftsmen, (Not with plastic canvas or silk flowers...ugh!)designers, and salespeople! However, I miss those good old days, in my room, smudging out a pencil sketch of Bob Dylan for hours on end. No sign has ever given me the same pride & satisfaction.I do signs because it's the only way I can use my God-given art ability to feed my family. But sometimes I feel I am neither an artist nor a signmaker, I'm trapped in a netherworld where people think I do signs because it's fun, like I'd do it for free just for the experience. Well, I'm rambling. Anyhoo, I hope yins get my jist. Love- JILL
------------------ Jill M. Welsh
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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) and was fast becoming quite a good gymnist. I had plans to join the olympics and all! but then fate took ahold of my life and our family moved to another town where the high school didnt a gym so my art was the center of my interests and the rest is history. I knew when I actually visualized thefinal piece of work finished BEFORE I had picked up a brush. now art isn't something I do because i want to or need to to make a living, I do it because I have to...I only do what the little voices in my head tell me to do! 
hahahaha!
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