The below post makes reference to subjects such as chrisitanity, morals, values and other controvertial issues.

If any of these things offend you then leave now, this post is not for you!

This is an e-mail that was sent to me recently from a friend, It hit me kinda hard and I thought I would share it here. If you do not agree with this post, please just state your opinions but as not to hurt or offend anyone personally.

As a fairly new father, I am extremely concerned about the world I leave behind for my son, as well as his upbringing. I can't change the world but I CAN change myself. Nuff said...read on.

> Dear God,
>
>
> Why didn't you save the school children in
> Littleton, Colorado?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> A Concerned Student
>
> --------------------------
>
> Dear Concerned Student,
>
> I am not allowed in schools.
>
> Sincerely, God
>
>
> Let's see, I think it started when Madeline Murray
> O'Hare complained
> she didn't want any prayer in our schools.
>
> And we said, OK.........
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Then, someone said you better not read the Bible in
> school, the Bible
> that says "thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not
> steal, and love your
> neighbor as yourself".
>
> And we said, OK.....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our
> children when they
> misbehave because their little personalities would
> be warped and we
> might damage their self-esteem. And we said, an
> expert should know what
> he is talking about so we won't spank them
> anymore...............
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Then someone said teachers and principals better
> not discipline our
> children when they misbehave. And the school
> administrators said no
> faculty member in this school better touch a
> student when they
> misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity,
> and we surely don't
> want to be sued.
>
> And we accepted their reasoning..............
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Then someone said, let's let our daughters have
> abortions if they
> want, and they won't even have to tell their
> parents.
>
> And we said, that's a grand idea.............
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Then some wise school board member said since boys
> will be boys and
> they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons
> all the condoms they
> want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and
> we won't have to
> tell their parents they got them at school.
>
> And we said, that's another great idea...........
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> then someone said let's print magazines with
> pictures of nude women
> and call it wholesome down-to- earth appreciation
> for the beauty of the
> female body.
>
> And we said, we have no problem with that....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> And someone else took that appreciation a step
> further and published
> pictures of nude children and then s tepped
> further still by making
> them available on the Internet.
>
> And we said, everyone's entitled to free
> speech......
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> And the entertainment industry said, let's make TV
> shows and movies
> that promote profanity, violence and illicit sex...
> And let's record
> music that encourages rape, drugs, murder suicide,
> and satanic
> themes........
>
> And we said, it's just entertainment and it has no
> adverse effect and
> nobody takes it seriously anyway,
>
> so go right ahead....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no
> conscience, and why
> they don't know right from wrong, and why it
> doesn't bother them to
> kill strangers, classmates or even themselves.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Undoubtedly, if we thought about it long and hard
> enough, we could
> figure it out. I'm sure it has a great deal to do
> with......
>
> "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

------------------
Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

My thoughts are that religion, morals, ethics, etc. are better learned from parents than from school teachers.

As far as "pornographic" pictures being available on the internet. They have been available on the streets since the first primitive camera was invented.

As far as "child pornography" is concerned..I think it is disgusting!!!!!!! But it, also, has been around for as long as the camera was invented.

As far as abortion is concerned..My feeling is that a woman has a right to abort an unwanted pregnancy. It is her body.

Those are my feeling about some of the topics mentioned in your post.

And they are ONLY my feelings. Don't bother agreeing or disagreeing to draw me into a controversial post!

------------------
Dave Grundy
AKA "applicator" on mIRC
"stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!"
in Granton, Ontario, Canada
1-519-225-2634
dave.grundy@quadro.net
www.quadro.net/~shirley

------------------
PKing is
Pat King of
King Sign Design in
McCalla,Alabama
The Professor of
SIGNOLOGY

------------------
LazyEdna
in RL known as Sara Straw
from southern Utah
5 National Parks within 3 hours drive
Red Rock Heaven

------------------
Gray Hodge
Cam River Signs
Somerset, Tasmania.

We all suffer from society's loss of civility, personal responsibility, and morality. Your right, morality doesn't have to come from a Christian, or other religious perspective, but there are certain standards of behavior and responsibility that are common to any philosophy that calls itself moral. To attack any one's moral position as simplistic, on the grounds that you don't agree with it's source or foundation, is to be guilty of the same offense. There's a word for that, too, LE. It's called hypocrisy.

------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

What's wrong with that LE?

Dave,
Archaeologists have unearthed pornographic art from ancient Aegean, Greek, Roman, and in the Americas, Moche Civilizations. This kind of stuff goes back to remote antiquity. But so do theft and murder. The Romans were some of the most brutal and vile people on the face of the earth. They are now excavating Ashkelon, an ancient Canaanite city, in Israel. They have found already, in the level of Roman occupation, evidence of a brothel, pornographic art, and a large number of babies which were discarded in a sewer. People have been wicked since the dawn of time.

I'm glad my Mama didn't abort me and I wish my parents had blistered my behind more than they did.

------------------
"autograph your work with excellence"

Wayne Webb
Webb Sign Studio
Chipley, FL
850.638.9329
webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com

------------------
LazyEdna
in RL known as Sara Straw
from southern Utah
5 National Parks within 3 hours drive
Red Rock Heaven

As for not comprehending what was meant, we could both be guilty of that. The last line of Bob's post reads "we reap what we sow", which was in fact the point. You started your response with "I disagree totally." Reading the rest of it, I'm to take that the basis of your disagreement was the post's religious, and specifically Christian, viewpoint.

As an atheist, I also have problems with religion being offered as a panacea to social problems. However, I do see where Judeo/Christian ethics are applicable to the human condition. The Ten Commandments - minus the first, which explicitly requires obedience to god - are less a religious doctrine as they are a set of rules on how to treat each other with decency and respect. You are right, there are other creeds which are not based on the bible or the ten commandments per se, but the basic premise - treat each other with decency and respect - remains the same, and you say as much in your response. The fact that so many so called "believers" violate those principles, does not make them any less valuable.

Whether or not one chooses to believe in a religious doctrine was not the point. The point was that religious doctrine, and the standards of social responsibilities that accompanied it, have been removed from public education, and not only has there been nothing to take its place, but current educational policy insists that nothing should. The PC position, which the Left and the educational establishment has adopted and which you apparently defend (correct me if I'm wrong - I'm sure you will ), is that there ARE no such standards, and to suggest that there should be, or that their lack leaves a vacuum, is to be accused of attempting to deny someone their rights to their own beliefs.

And please, don't bother to tell me how I "misinterpreted" your position. I don't engage in "leaps of faith" as you so sneeringly suggest, and disparaging my response by claiming I don't "get it" is disingenuous at best. I understand what you mean far more than you'd care to admit.

------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself. This takes many forms. For example, the person's character, nationality or religion may be attacked. Alternatively, it may be pointed out that a person stands to gain from a favourable outcome. Or, finally, a person may be attacked by association, or by the company he keeps.
There are three major forms of Attacking the Person:

ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion, the argument attacks the person who made the assertion.
ad hominem (circumstantial): instead of attacking an assertion the author points to the relationship between the person making the assertion and the person's circumstances.
ad hominem (tu quoque): this form of attack on the person notes that a person does not practise what he
preaches.
Examples:
You may argue that God doesn't exist, but you are just following a fad. (ad hominem abusive)
We should discount what Premier Klein says about taxation because he won't be hurt by the increase. (ad hominem circumstantial)

We should disregard Share B.C.'s argument because they are being funded by the logging industry. (ad hominem circumstantial)

You say I shouldn't drink, but you haven't been sober for more than a year. (ad hominem tu quoque)

------------------
"autograph your work with excellence"

Wayne Webb
Webb Sign Studio
Chipley, FL
850.638.9329
webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com

------------------
LazyEdna
in RL known as Sara Straw
from southern Utah
5 National Parks within 3 hours drive
Red Rock Heaven

I was also doing my level best to keep this a civil discussion, which is why I did NOT attack you personally. Do you regard every POV that disagrees with yours to be disparaging and condescending? Or is that simply how you respond to everyone who doesn't agree wholeheartedly with your religious and political opinions? And I DO often struggle with your meanings in what you write, which like anything else, are open to interpretation. As an intelligent and skilled polemicist, you often disguise your purpose in rhetorical devices, and it really seems to annoy you when I catch you at it. You don't have to like my interpretations, but I am free to make them, just as you are free to dispute them all you like.

And here I am, writing about our differences in how we see one another, rather than the subject, which was moral decline as a result of an abandonment of Judeo/Christian ethics in society. Tell you what, Sara. I'll stick to the subject if you will.

For example: I'd be genuinely interested in what you believe was left out of the Ten Commandments. What would you put in? And why?

------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

------------------
Wright Signs
Wyandotte, Michigan
Since 1978
http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com

If you want to develop a person of good character then you have to develop them long term.
That is with patience, kindness and understanding. But most of all you must lead them by following the same standards that you set for your them.
Would you strike a new employee? Why not? They made a mistake. They wasted precious time and resources. You wouldn't because you would get your ass kicked in court or on the street.
You know why people hit other people. It is because they can. The weaker person has to take it because there is nothing they can do.
Even the military doesn't condone corporal punishment. Why would a sign painter?
In fact if we looked at a lot of the high school murders in the past few years most of these killers were being picked on an bullied.
Certainly states a lot about the "spare the rod" to me.
One more thing if anyone ever lays a hand on my kid they will deal with me and my lawyer. That is and especially any jackass that hides his perverted beliefs in good and right behind a bible or school book.

Kevin Landry
KnL Signs
Halifax NS

Kevin Landry
KnL Signs
Halifax NS

The other thing is pain is a short term thing. Pain will teach you to lie just to avoid more pain. Lying will teach you to steal and it escalates from there.
I am not talking about a permissive society. Of course, there has to be rules. But people have to learn to calmly say no. Jesus did it for 40 days in a desert. And I am sure that Jesus (if the bible is right) could have smote that sucker back to hell, but did he?

I was reluctant to repost here in this thread but I have some oppositions.

I was brought up a Protestant Christian but attended a Catholic High school. in my 4 years at a Catholic High school I saw a lot of over abuse and condemnation. But I also had a couple priests that were real human beings with true spiritual values.

So would it be right to condemn Catholics in whole for a few bad seeds? Of course not, just as an Athiest should not condemn a Christian and so forth.

Also I know more people that go to church every Sunday, and are the most immoral people I know. So Church or Religion does not a good soul make just by going.

Just as attending a Letterhead meet does not make you a Sign painter.

I respect all beliefs even if I don't agree. but about disciplin, we have walked away as a society of disciplining our kids. As a kid, my father did hit me when I screwed up and am I better person, you bet! I learned to be accountable for my actions. Did he abuse me? Nope! and I thank him to this day for my upbringing.

It really comes down to taking responsibility in general.

As Abortion goes, I have a relative that got pregnant, now she was an Adult and going back to school, I forget how all the time frames worked out but it was going to interfere with her graduation. So She had an abortion. Just so she could have a Freaking career. In my oppinion that was not a just cause for an abortion, she was not poor, or life threatining just greedy, selfish and irresponsible. The responsible thing to do would have been to keep her legs closed or wear protection.

So we don't think of the consequenses today because we have built in ways to get out of them.

But did we really?

The poor girl now sees a shrink because she can't live with the thoughts of what she did

I asked an 18 year old kid last summer, I said to him, " what is wrong with your generation? why do they kill each other? as well as others? why do they do such wrong things?" you know what he said to me?

There is no discipline!

plain and simple right from the mouths of babes.

Something is out of Balance when we can't let our children pray in school or bring a bible, but they can wear Satanic clothes and listen to Satanic music in school.

I am no way a Bible thumper nor a religion freak but I do know a society in Decay when I see one. I am NOT going to just ignore it because it seems too complex of a problem.

It IS very simple, the answer is not as complex as you might think. The ways we all choose to respond to this wake up call will be different but the main objective would be the same.

I dream of a leader ( president or not ) that would be bold enough to take his or her own perverbial balls in their hands and make bold changes, without any care of whether they pissed off a certain group or not but to better our society as a whole in the long run.

The reason that probably won't work, would be that most people would have to take a look at themselves and the way they live, and make drastic changes, and that is more frightening then to send our kids off to the Slaughter houses we call school today!

Nuff said!

------------------
Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

Jesus did get angry on one recorded occasion. And he got a little physical about it. He evidently was a pretty tough man:

Joh:2:13: And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh:2:14: And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh:2:15: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh:2:16: And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

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"autograph your work with excellence"

Wayne Webb
Webb Sign Studio
Chipley, FL
850.638.9329
webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com

What's needed is a standard of morality that is independent of religious beliefs, and thus answers those with valid concerns of religious intolerance.

------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

I disagree with a lot of what you say. You said that not all people in charge are bad because of a few. If you are in charge and you turn a blind eye to what is happening then you are responsible and the Roman Catholic Church has done than on countless occasions. But they are not the only religion with these problems so enuff said.

You are right about abortion as a means of birth control. That is sick. But maybe if she had insisted on protection she would not have had this happen. Maybe if we didn't make people feel guilty about sex they could accept sex for what it is and would get protection. But no we have to make people feel guilty about themselves. Do you think it might have something to do with religion.


You say society is going to hell. I disagree. You are able to talk to me on this board. Try that during the McCarthy era. Because we have opposing viewpoints they would take one side or the other and the conflicting side would of course be wrong with them and for that a little humiliation would be in order. Remember also the Spanish Inquisition, holy wars of yesterday and today. Religion is not discipline but belief and people twist that belief into something. Discipline is control of your emotions and actions. That is taught by parents and real leaders, not athletes, politicians and the rest.
I object to satanic tshirts and my kids are not allowed to wear them because of what and who they represent. but is still is only a picture.

Someone once said that things will have to swing the other way until we can get some equilibrium. This is the case. I did not ever say that absolute permissiveness is the order of the day. I simply say no to what I don't want my children to do. I remove freedoms and my trust from them when they make dumb decisions.

I also think that the last comment enuff said is out of line. You started it and if you say something about what I said then by cracky expect a response. I will determine when I have said enuff.

Kevin Landry
KnL Signs
Halifax NS

You do great work. Nice web site and great designs.

Kevin Landry
KnL Signs
Halifax NS

I am guilty of a misinterpretation.

I meant " I had said enuff" not that any one else had said enough.

I also did not say " not all people in charge are bad because of a few"

What I said was...that I will not condemn a whole religion for a few bad seeds.

I used to condemn the Catholic religion because of the restrictions they impose over and above what the bible says but I have met priests that are just the opposite so I no longer condemn the religion I condemn the individual priest.

Hell, I welcome opposing oppinions, I am always interested in others point of view. Because in learning how others view things, I might learn my view is a litle out of focus.

At least we can agree that we disagree on issues.

I do not know enough about one religion or another to get into a debate nor do I want to impose Christianity on anyone.

I do believe in Christianity and try to better myself on a daily basis, and on a daily basis I fail in one way or another.

Oh well I'm brain dead now so back to work I go.

------------------
Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

Thank you to everyone who is standin up for a peaceful forum!

The way I see it...we are so busy argueing about if we should be grateful, or to whom we're to be grateful for our blessings, that we've forgotten how to truely be grateful.

The choice to worship and rejoice or be bitter and lost, is our own choice...a personal matter with Our Creator.

There are a lot of us in Letterville that understand that the most excellent form of humility (bein humble) is total gratitude. Right there is a bit of heaven. If I can go through the day without having a bitter, impure, and violent thought...woohoo! Sometimes we like to share things with each other to offer encouragement or strength to those who can appreciate it. If you can't appreciate it, that's your loss, deal...walk away.

We cannot carress with a fist, yet there are some who give the impression that they would explode if they couldn't provoke an imature situation everyday and "win" that stupid game. There are no winners with a *foomp* mentality. (Blinders on, head up their butt, "I want everybody to feel as miserable as I am."...yahdee, yahdee, yahdee...) Attacking people just shows others that we need to have a time-out, as it were, that we have no control over our reactions, as opposed to a composed response.

We're all adults here aren't we? We were given the right of choice, unlike other species on this planet. Some folks come here seeking comfort, laughter, answers...besides sign shop related issues. Many of us are like family here. We have side chat and email, and (supposedly) the option to start our off topic posts with an OT warning (...when it gets a little too much for the general public of Letterville to absorb.) OT does not mean...I'm puttin my heart on my sleeve so somebody will bitterly kick my butt. But it appears as such in this forum.

I've noticed a lack of posts by folks who don't feel comfortable here anymore and I can't say as I blame them. But I miss them terribly. The childish attacks that go left field of the original posting for the sake of arguement are just plain disgusting.

Maybe we should have a forum for those who have had a bad day and want to puff their chests out at another's expense...you know, make em feel stupid and question why they're here in the first place. Then all the fighting won't have to be OT, it can be a ring for sarcastic and vicious attacks for those of you who love to argue about anything you want.

I brag about Letterheads, in general, to my students all the time. Give me something to work with here...sheesh. It's emabarrassing to let them look at kewl stuff when all this third grade crap is going on. Instead of, "Who did this? I wanna learn how to do that! It looks great!" I have to answer, "...this was an adult?...what we're supposed to grow up to be?...what's their problem, don't they realize we're all on the same planet?...way to set an example"

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who feels this way. There shouldn't be a problem with offering suggestions, sharing knowledge and asking questions. That's why this board was put up. We were offered the luxury of being allowed to post personal issues on here, as we're all human and sometimes you gotta deal with it and need a "sounding board." I have a feeling that will end soon as it has gotten out of hand way too much. Steve is awfully patient. I can see him, "I'm bustin my butt to keep this site on-line for this?..."

The big decision we can make here is, what's more important...Letterville, a place for friends who share our livelihood, support and resources, or pissing somebody, anybody off because we're "that way?"

Instead of going out of your way to prove other folks wrong...why not encourage the ones who are makin things happen? Pimp finally created a logo he is happy with, Spyke is rockin his own world in the marketing department as well! Deb is going out of her way to see that we take care of our physical environment, she cares about us all, she has kids growing up on this planet as well. These guys need to be patted on the back! That's just three examples of thousands of people who could use the encouragement. If I spent all my time holdin others accountable for not meeting my expectations...I'm probably not meeting mine. I know I can't change the rules, but I hold myself accountable for my aspect of the universe.

I hope I haven't offended anybody, but I'm tired of being offended and want to see a more professional, nurturing and compassionate flow to this board...am I alone here?

"If everybody swept their own front porch, the world would be a cleaner place."

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DrQuill - Mural Woman
PEACE SIGNS
logodesign2@icqmail.com
Georgia, USA

My Mama used to tell me, "...if you don't have anything nice to say, keep your mouth shut...or I'll shut it for you!" She was perty good at it too! Dishonorable and disrespectful behaviour was not tolerated. To each his own, unless we hurt somebody in the process and then it was pure hell to pay. If she got a nickle everytime we messed up, she'd have her own island somewhere by now...hahaha! None of us are perfect, but that does not mean we don't have to look in the mirror and fix what ain't right when we can.

Some folks are just afraid to look at the real problems and they stick out like a sore thumb...hahaha!...sux to be them.

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Mark Fair

Mark Fair Signs
http://www.markfair.com

Home of "Sign of the Month
http://www.markfair.com/signomonth.html

2162 Mt. Meigs Road
Montgomery, Alabama 36107
334-262-4449

mark@markfair.com

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DrQuill - Mural Woman
PEACE SIGNS
logodesign2@icqmail.com
Georgia, USA

Why did the founders of this country and constitution refer to God? Where these ignorant men?

Do you think God gave everyone a free choice to believe in a supreme being or creator?

If the Bible is an old "story", why do we still have churches or any form of organized religions? Why hasn't it died out? Don't say that fear is a driving factor, we're not going for that anymore. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a hell and damnation sermon in todays "come as you are, leave your Bible at home" church climate.

A decline in religion? You can't find warehouse space or retail space in shopping centers anymore....They are remodeling inside for churches. Whats going on here?

For every principle an atheist teaches his children on "moral values", there is a specific scripture refernce for it. So are you really unknowingly raising your kids according to Gods word, or did you think them up all by yourself?

Nothing will change with head knowledge, until the heart is changed. Lots of diffiance in these posts.

I buy car insurance just in case I get hit. I also believe in God. If I'm wrong, I have still lived a happy life without regret. If I'm right.........where do you stand?

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Mike Duncan
Lettercraft Signs
Alexandria VA

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LazyEdna
in RL known as Sara Straw
from southern Utah
5 National Parks within 3 hours drive
Red Rock Heaven

Actually, I wanted to pat you on the back for several things you said Edna. But the last thing you said to me was not to make a reference to you on the bb or chat. So there ya go. I did repeat some of what you'd said, somewhat...I agreed with it.

When I hear things are geting out of hand on a post, I like to try to be a peacemaker. Not too good at it though am I?

Practice makes perfect.

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Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@nc.rr.com

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Wright Signs
Wyandotte, Michigan
Since 1978
http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com