posted
The following is a letter written by Jorg Baily....
The Children Watch And Listen And Learn By Jorg Bailey 3-10-1
If you are different from the standards of norm in any way, or you really don't have what it takes; if you have little or no value, or beauty, it seems that you have no power, no say. You are judged, ignored, disregarded, invalidated, denied, and the imperfect, the struggling, the young and the old, try to make it any way they can. The laws seem to be words on paper to be interpreted and loop-holed by the law makers for the benefit of those who can pay. And the children watch and listen and learn.
Lives sadly controlled by so many wants and needs, buying and spending like there is no tomorrow; an addict is never satisfied. Always off balance, confused, fighting among ourselves in the name of the power, and the money and the glory we swear is just around the next gambled corner. Endless striving, never attaining, ever fearing, molded and shaped by it all: the wealth, the beauty, the guilt, the words, the pictures, the media, the music, the print, the film. The buying and the spending, the medical non-care; religions that fight against one another and among themselves. The poverty, the jobs, the family, the home, land, property, education, food, water, air, safety, life... and whatever else can be allowed, given or taken so we can survive, thrive enjoy being alive here in the land of the free. Where the needy are needed to remain needy for the wealth they bring to those who are helping. And the children watch and listen and learn.
Our gluttonous inactivities of depression devour us. Voracious and gorged with our insatiable appetites of self-fulfilling desires at all costs. Unable to see past the end of our own noses unless it is into the mirror to gaze at our beautiful shells, or to gloat at our triumphs over the unsuspecting and trusting souls we've been able to take advantage. Judging each other on every level, yet forgiving ourselves for all we can get away with. Living by competition, where winning is everything; being first no matter what. Compassion, no better than second place. And the children watch and listen and learn.
Women: our beauty and sexuality is seen to hold the value of our purpose, our womanhood. Brainwashing begun early with barbies, kens, dream houses, cartoon icons, ads, movies, and examples from us all. Strong messages and avenues of help if we don't measure-up so we can look like what we're supposed to look like. And we freely pay to get nipped, tucked, sucked, plucked, injected, implanted, dissected, plugged, pinched, fried, tied, dyed, painted, tainted, dressed, undressed, crossed, then tossed when everything and nothing we do meets the expectations of what a woman of beauty is supposed to be. And the children watch and listen and learn, in mirror.
Men: our strengh, power and success is seen to be the necessities to fit the mold of our manhood. Knowing that tall and handsome opens many doors, the real control comes with the power, the money, posssessions, eye-candy partners on our arms, violence, weapons, war, anger, dominance, rights, religions,... and our laws and how to write them and how to use them. And if our bubble should break in the frustration of it all, lacking self-control, and the control over the life we had hoped for, or feel we deserved, scrounging for what is left of our power-hood, whom do we hurt the most with the strength and power of our manhood, but the women and the children, and each other. And the children watch and listen and learn, in horror.
Teaching the children through our examples of no self-control, no self-respect, and even less for each other, lies and confusion from so many directions, actions of the hypocrites, inactions of the caring, the easy successes of those more fortunate, or the unfair abuses for those less fortunate. The lessons of who gets to live and whom it doesn't matter if they die, the driving forces, the wanting, the needing, our sanctimonious standards instilled as they grow and learn. Where can the children turn with the fears, the feelings of never being able to measure-up, put-up, kiss-up, play-up, think-up, live-up, be-up, keep-up, but to some sad end of wanting to give up. Told whom to trust, but repeatedly shown whom they can't. And the children watch and listen and learn, in muse.
The children are crying out loud, acting our their pain; anger giving the strength to endure it all. "It hurts too deep to be sad; it doesn't hurt as much to be mad." And they're left to vent against one another, fighting for the misguided values of our examples. Violating each other, and us who have made them, and those innocently in the path of their pain. "Our lives are too busy; we haven't the time. We need them as our whipping posts, and we hope they don't mind." And the children react with the crying shame of us all. And the children watch and listen and learn. -----------------------------------------
Excellent observation, Jorg......my question is...will we ever learn? I am always hopeful that mankind will awaken from this dream....I see a brighter future for us all....if we do.
------------------ Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"
Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
People learn what they are taught. They don't always abide, but at least they know. So, what are they taught?
One students prayer:
Now I sit me down in school Where praying is against the rule For this great nation under God Finds mention of Him very odd.
If scripture now the class recites It violates the Bill of Rights And anytime my head I bow Becomes a federal matter now
Our hair can be purple, orange or green, Thats no offence; it's a freedom scene. The law is specific, the law is precise, Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
For praying in a public hall Might offend someone with no faith at all. In silence alone we must meditate, God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss, and dress like freaks, And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks. They've outlawed mention of the Bible, To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen, And the 'unwed daddy' our Senior King. It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong, We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.
We can get condoms and birth controls, study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles. But the Ten Commandments are not allowed, No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here, I must confess, When chaos reigns - the school's a mess.
------------------ Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Alexandria VA
I have never let schooling interfere with my education - Mark Twain
Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Mike Duncan, I'm curious which public schools you have that promote witchcraft? As for the "decline of human morals".. please tell me how people are ANY different today from how they were 200 years ago, or 2000 years ago? gimme a break... the times we live in are far from perfect but they are better than the past... ESPECIALLY for WOMEN and children and minorities! "Fifty-nine per cent of all children born in London died before reaching the age of five, sixty-four per cent before reaching ten." Besant, Sir Walter, London in the Eighteenth Century. London, 1903. Reading REAL history books clarifies just how wonderful we DO have it in today's world... Who wants to return to those GLORIOUS days of yore? I could go on and on, but then.. I waste too much time reading books with footnotes. Don't get me started.. These books are actually on my bookshelf and I know how to use them.. heh. LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I wanna say something about what Mike posted. Just so you know my family and I attend church twice each Sunday, but I find myself agreeing with...here it comes...LE.
Are things that much different? Maybe only in the respect that it's brought into the open now when the priest abuses the altar boys. I could go on but you can get the drift.
Remember what Solomon said "theres nothing new under the sun"
------------------ Dennis Veenema The Sign Shop Dresden, Ont. & GigaBytes Plus "Where the plus is the service!"
posted
LE, I don't think people are any different from 200 to 2000 years ago. What is taught is different. In some ways, everyone is better off in todays world. The topic was what children learn from us. Terrible things have happened to every segment of people throughout history. With more history behind us I hope the mistakes of the past are not repeated.
Veee: I never saw an example in the Bible where children were used in any operation of churches. I only saw examples of men doing the "work" of a church. Anytime "human authority" changes things, there's a breakdown caused by mans inability to be perfect.
If I thought church was a waste of time, and had no redeeming value, I'd sleep in, and make my tee times at 11 am. (I still hear God's name used on the back nine, only in not so flattering ways)
------------------ Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Alexandria VA
I have never let schooling interfere with my education - Mark Twain
Posts: 1328 | From: Centreville, VA | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
i really liked saying the lord's prayer every morning in elementary school.
i don't have children. if i did, i'd feel sad that they didn't do that anymore.
but, then, "when i was a girl, ya know, the city limits were 50 miles closer; i had a pony in my backyard; and freezie pops were 5 cents" so, what do i know?
posted
Gail, the point is, that our world has many different concepts about religion, and to be fair... we would have to let every religion say their prayers if you want to express your religion's prayers in a public place with a captive audience. And the majority religion might find opportunity to denigrate the less populous religions (as kids will do) and you can see where this can lead to a serious can of worms.... By avoiding religious rituals in schools and other public venues... we avoid a lot of potential problems. The old "ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" technique. Now if schools wanted to teach an objective study of religions of the world, I think that would be a terrific idea. Who knows? Maybe kids would stumble upon a religion they like even better than the one they were raised in!! LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree. We should let every child pray in school. How about if we start with a minute of silent prayer? Everyone could pray to whomever they want and no one gets left out.
Now, I know what the argument is going to be.....we can all pray anytime we want to. The point is to teach the children, religious or secular, that there is always someone bigger than ourselves and that there is always someone to turn to. What goes on beyond that is up to the individual.
The world is better off today in many ways in a material sense. You said you like reading "REAL" history books. Well, while you are reading, read up on the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. There are a lot of parallels between it and what is happen in society today. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. I'm fear the US is following the same path.
posted
Glen; Imagine if the Roman Empire had the communication abilities we have today, to promote their philosophy of life. Maybe they do, not much has cahnged in a long time except how we kill one another, today we can push buttons to eliminate masses of humans.
Kurtzman Norwalk, Ct.
------------------ Creative communication since 1959
posted
I guess if one is looking at the world in a materialistic sense, people are better off. We should tell these searching children who are "crying out loud" that they have it better than any other generation, just read your history books. Somehow I don't think that will assuage any of them, except drive home the message that their parents are as souless as they are. Yes, really look at history and see that it is not an upward,straight line of "progress". Immorality and good have been with us always and our present time is no different. I think those that lament the good past are right, there were better times($$ not withstanding). There was also hedonistic and barbarous times too, it's just a matter of what type we want to create here and now. A long life is something to be desired, just not at the expense or the exclusion of everything else."What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his soul." Don't ask the state to inculcate your children with religion, live it and by example, pass it on to them.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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I didn't make myself very clear. If you take the time to look at history, every country that became morally depraved was destroyed soon after (in relative terms). You are right when you say that much hasn't changed.....in the long term. But, we do have our peaks and vallys along the way. We are much more techologically advanced today which means we can do a heck of a lot more damage with a lot less effort. All the more reason why to push for a higher moral standard in ourselves, wouldn't you agree?
Here are some questions to ponder......What is the source or standard that we use to base our measurement of morality? Do we base it on ourselves? Or, do we base it on something greater than ourselves? Which do you suppose would stand the test of time?
posted
Say Glenn... to quote you... "I agree. We should let every child pray in school." Now.. I'm curious as to how you can agree with me when I said the EXACT OPPOSITE of that... reading comprehension difficulties? As for every child *praying*... some belief/non-belief systems don't *pray*, as for "The point is to teach the children, religious or secular, that there is always someone bigger than ourselves and that there is always someone to turn to", some systems do NOT believe that, so.. you run into yet more problems... Your entire premise is frought with problems, not the least of which is putting words in my mouth which were never there before you so eagerly put them in there.... Please don't do that.. it's very rude. By the way... whatever makes you think I haven't read about the rise and fall of the Roman Empire... let's not get into a "my bookshelf is bigger than your bookshelf" argument. Just make your points on their own merits without referring to what you "think" others "should" do. As for trying to "push for a higher moral standard in ourselves," higher than WHAT? As for where morality comes from, it's obvious that any social group has to have rules that are conducive to the best opportunities for survival and continuation of that group. As for me, I do not consider a higher survival rate for children to be a "materialist" Point of View. Kids today DO have it better than any generation before. What was the complaint again? LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, approximately 22 million legal abortions were reported in 1987. It is estimated that between four and nine million were not reported, for a possible total of 26-31 million legal abortions. Add to that an estimated 10 to 22 million "clandestine" abortions, and the total worldwide figure is between 36 and 53 million abortions. China reports the highest number of abortions, with 10,394,500 abortions reported in 1987. Women in the former Soviet Union have a high rate of abortion, 181 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44 in 1987, or roughly 60 percent of all pregnancies ending in abortion. The average Russian woman has three to eight abortions in her lifetime. The rate of abortion in Russia is four times higher than that of the U.S. Since the fall of Communism in Romania, 78 percent of all pregnancies are aborted. There is a worldwide trend toward liberalizing abortion laws.
------------------ Artworks Olympia WA
Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
And this is a problem because....????? The women having abortions have their OWN reasons for having them. If you are against abortion.. then don't have one. The real answer is to do what is necessary to make abortion unnecessary... LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
If there is nothing inherently wrong with abortion, why would we care to make in unnecessary? The complaint again? That kids have no system of values, morals or respect for others. LE seems to think longer lifespans or less disease is more important. Again, if that is your system of values, then yes children are better off. Just keep pumping them with inane facts, Ritalin, psycho babble, if that's what works for you. Let us not kid ourselves that latchkey kids, educated with the rot that passes for learning, with phenomenal records of broken families is somehow better than any other generation. These kids sure as hell don't think they are so blessed.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com
Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
I thought it was obvious. 50 million human lives a year being snuffed out hardly gives us bragging rights about infant mortality rates. The fact that human life is so meaningless to many is proof that we are on the decline.
------------------ Artworks Olympia WA
Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
You two guys ought to get together and figure out if long lifespans matter or not.. One says they don't, one says they do... and these guys are from the same belief system!! If guys from the same belief system can't agree... then what chance is there for all the different ones to get along? Best leave displays of belief systems at home and in their respective places of worship, and keep the public areas free *from* religious displays. It sure would be a good thing for tolerance. LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:...we would have to let every religion say their prayers if you want to express your religion's prayers in a public place with a captive audience...
I agree. And as one of those "Born-Again Far Right Extremists" (did I leave anything out?), I agree with your statement. What I don't agree is that a "Moment of Silence" (note the key word "SILENCE") would and can cast aspersions on other beliefs.
Relax! And by the way, I wasn't being rude. I was making a point. I enjoy using other people's own arguments against them.
Next....
quote:As for trying to "push for a higher moral standard in ourselves," higher than WHAT? As for where morality comes from, it's obvious that any social group has to have rules that are conducive to the best opportunities for survival and continuation of that group.
"Higher than what?" Exactly my point. Children need someone to look up to. Someone to be an example. Someone who's approval and disapproval means something to the child.
"Morality comes from.....rules that are conducive to the best opportunities for survival and continuation of that group." LE, isn't that what Hitler thought he did for Germany after their defeat in WWI? By your definition, was what he did moral? What about Lenin or Stalin? (Hitler is not intended for inflamitory ruse)
Morality, simply put, is doing what you know is right. We instictively know that it is wrong to lie, to murder, to steal. But because of our self-centered nature, we have a propensity to do that which we know instictively to be wrong.
As for your "not consider a higher survival rate for children to be a materialist" comment is smoke and mirrors; and, is not applicable to the discussion and I think you know it. There are those who think they need a third TV, or another car, or new expensive clothes. So they spend more time at work earning the money to buy these thing....these "luxury" items. And in exchange, we spend less time with our children, parents, grandparents, and other equally important things.
posted
Ever look up the word "Belief" in the dictionary?...ready....here goes... "CONVICTION,FEELING,IDEA, NOTION, OPINION,PERSUASION, POSITION, SENTIMENT, VIEW..... nothing factual........
Kurtzman Norwalk, Ct.
------------------ Creative communication since 1959
posted
And one more thing before the door hits me in the as...s.... Everything on this planet assimilates the enviornment it is born into, sooo.... is not morality a matter of geography? Or is behavior a reflection of a glandular role model we choose reflect.
Kurtzman Norwalk, Ct.
------------------ Creative communication since 1959
posted
I would say that a terminated baby had a rather short lifespan, which is about as close as I got to the subject. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. We can value human life, live long and prosper.
------------------ Artworks Olympia WA
Posts: 797 | From: Olympia, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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LE appears to have faith in humankind. I simply prefer to have faith in something higher.
LE's argument is based on secular humanism - a "belief" that there is no higher power than Man himself (excuse the sexism). If Man is the standard that defines morality, then isn't it fair to say that "if it feels good - do it." And if so, isn't that the problem?
posted
I find it humorous how far this post wandered from the original intent...
"The Children Watch and Listen and Learn"...
What do you suppose a child would learn by reading this post? Do you suppose they would learn that adults will argue over nothing, for no apparent reason and at the same time totally miss the intent of the original post.
Thats what I came away with...I did however find the original post was both poignant and well written albeit longer than need be it could have been written a thousand years ago or yesterday,maybe even today.
Interesting...don't you think?
------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
[This message has been edited by Monte Jumper (edited March 14, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Monte Jumper (edited March 14, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Monte Jumper (edited March 14, 2001).]
posted
Glenn... Once again.. thanks for explaining to me what I think, believe, and "have faith" in. Gee.. how did I ever know what to think before you came along to point it out to me. Thanx again. For the rest of you... Glenn has no clue what my belief system is or is not. Anything he says that I think is pure speculation on his part, and I wonder why he can't just argue his side of this disagreement from his OWN point of view? As for Monty, if he thinks that a discussion of belief systems and raising children is about "nothing" and that nothing can be learned here.. I think that speaks for itself. LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posts: 776 | From: Aurora, Utah, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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By the way, re-read my post. I said "appears." I was very careful in my choice of words. My description is exactly how you come across to me. If my perception of you is incorrect, perhaps you should take the time to correct my misconceptions.
By the way, I always argue from my point of view. Its the only one I have. To do otherwise would be construed as presumptuous on my part. Remember, you are the one to tell us that..."Reading REAL history books clarifies just how wonderful we DO have it in today's world..." If I were thin-skinned, I'd think you were insulting us because your comment suggest that we read "fake" history books.
C'mon LE, none of this is directed at you personally. You came into this discussion with an opposing point of view and I'm debating it with you. I thought you enjoyed debating. Thats what you've told me in the past, anyway.
posted
While Monte has brought up the subject, I was curious if I'm the only person here that's recieved hateful, insulting email regarding this post thread?
------------------ Don Coplen aka "SaintPete" Coplen Designs St.Petersburg, FL dcoplen@mindspring.com
What I said was..."The original post was poignant" "the arguing was about nothing" In definition here... "nothing" was arguing about things that had nothing to do with the original post.Everyone else got it how'd you miss it?
Perhaps you should read it two or three times.In the mean time.... I'm sorry you think so little of me, especially since you don't know me.
I've been told by several people that have met you "how nice you are in person" I hope to meet you one day...just to see if they are telling the truth!
------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
[This message has been edited by Monte Jumper (edited March 15, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Monte Jumper (edited March 15, 2001).]
posted
Monte; Over the shoulder comments continue with our group, much like "I took my seat at the fights the other night, and a hockey game broke out. I was told, and thought everyone was "created equal". So I can only imagine tickets on sale for the fight between "Mike Tyson" and "Norman Rockwell", now dat's ah fight tah see baby, better get dere early so's yuz can see's where Rockwell is gonna make dah hole in da roof...as per da chalk marks earlier on by dah management. 10 to 1 he misses dah mark.. yada...yada...yada...fugatz. Back on earth, I thought this group was intent on helping each other in the trade with this bullboard, not take them apart...
Kurtzman Norwalk, Ct.
------------------ Creative communication since 1959
posted
I couldn't agree more J.G. I wish we could do more on signs...god knows I'm willing, I honestly wish I could figure out the animosity that lives here...truth be known, I think some people like to be someone here they don't have the courage to be elswhere.
Any time you want to talk signs...look me up! e-mail me or post on the bb If I can help or support I'll be there.
------------------ Monte Jumper SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.
We do help one another in this trade. We are a community. And as in any community, there comes a familiarity with one another. We fight, we laugh, we cuss each other out sometimes. But I don't know one person here who isn't willing to help another Letterhead here or anywhere else.
If you have a sign question, I'll be glad to help if I am able.
Doesn't mean we can't have a spirited debate from time to time.
posted
LE.. I don't like getting involved in these types of threads but I about fell out of my chair when I read your statement.
“By avoiding religious rituals in schools and other public venues... we avoid a lot of potential problems.”
Your joking... right?? When these *rituals* as you call them, were taking place in the schools, up until around thirty years ago... tell me, what kind of problems were we having (in the schools)???... As I recall, and I am old enough, kids (we) were actually getting an education.. They (we) had to earn their (our) grades and self esteem etc.. and they (we) really knew how to read and write when they (we) graduated.. Remedial courses didn't exist when I went to college.. Back then, if you you couldn't cut the mustard, you didn't go on to college.. I don't think there were too many school shootings back then either..
Yes, getting rid of those *rituals*, sure has solved a lot of those problems..
FWIW.. I'm a single dad raising three teens.. and none of them are in the failling public school system anymore... which is shame really..
Damn....that was something. I didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest....but I loved all the comments....you people sure love to mix it up in a lively debate....
We all have our own understandings of how we see reality....It has a dark side and it has a light side....all sides are valid. No one is wrong in thier thinking...it is simply how they percieve it to be from thier limited view. It is when WE place a judgement upon any idea or thought...and make the person wrong for thinking as they do...then the problem starts.
Besides....I posted that because it touched a spot in me....and I felt I had to pass it along to my brothers and sisters here at Letterville.....(besides...I did say HIGHLY OFF TOPIC didn't I?????)
------------------ Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"
Posts: 1000 | From: Port Angeles, Washington | Registered: Jan 1999
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These books are actually on my bookshelf and I know how to use them.. heh.
One says they don't, one says they do... and these guys are from the same belief system!! If guys from the same belief system can't agree... then what chance is there for all the different ones to get along? Best leave displays of belief systems at home and in their respective places of worship, and keep the public areas free *from* religious displays. It sure would be a good thing for tolerance. 
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