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I'm Dave (lurker and this board moves too fast for me....lol) I am going to Pasadena and went to Chapmans event in Temple. Usually I am painting Harley's for a living. But, I took on the job of painting a sign for this guy. Its gonna be 8'x 8' on a 30' pole. Any quick blurts or thoughts on how to improve this would be great. Sorry, I have a degree in physics. Not Advertising. But, a sign that has a killer theme is almost a land mark and draws people to it. I think his verbage is wrong and I want to put a skully on the bike that has Ice Pearl coming from his eyes. Is that a bad idea? Wondering if the "shock and awe" thing is not a good thing. But, I'd laugh at hearing "can you believe whats on that sign". It got noticed and I think that is point.
Again.... I'm sorry for asking basic help! But you gotta start somewhere.
DaveK
-------------------- Dave Kleinman 2406 Orleans Dr Cedar Park, TX Posts: 17 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jul 2003
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Hi Dave... I am by NO MEANS an expert at signs. But here are a few quick thoughts: *Think Negative Space. This is the space around the lettering. The copy needs room to breathe. *Prioritize your copy. What is most important? Emphasize this. *Follow the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid!)Wouldn't "For All Your Leather Needs" be sufficient? *A dark background with light copy usually is more readable, such as black & biker-y with maybe orange lettering? *A pictorial is good, in fact I like the bike on this sign, but it is not the most important item. *I like the old "arc" layout...works for me. *Why is the phone number in red? This was what came to my little old pea-picking brain. I am sure that there are many others more qualified to give advice! Good Luck, my Lurking Friend! Love- JILL ps invest in a good layout book like the one by Mike Stevens!
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I'm SO computer illiterate. I don't know how to post a picture, and I don't want to type another 20 lines, but SOMEbody needs to help him. This isn't a tough one. Anyone?
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Dave. With your permission, I'd like to use this post as a Basics Of Sign Layout lesson. Good sign layout involves some detective work, some basic design knowledge and the ability to troubleshoot.
1. Prioritize the copy.
There is only so much information you can fit on a sign and still expect a person to read. If the reader is in a vehicle, they have much less time than a pedestrian. Explain this to your customer and he'll tell you it's all important. That may be true for them, but as a professional sign designer, you know better.
What is the most important message on the sign? If the customer can only read one thing, what would that be? Who? What? Where? Why?
In many cases the company name indicates the product, but not always. Our mission is to isolate the various text into "idea groups" and then assign each group a number based on importance. Let's use Dave's sign as an example.
I see 3 distinct idea groups. The first is The Leather Connection. That answers the who. Next is the what. Saddlebags, Vests, Jackets, Chaps. The "for all your leather needs" line is also part the what. And finally the where. The phone number and sign location answers the where?
Now what is the most important message? The Company name? It's a great name. The Leather Connection suggests a place that deals in leather or a dating service for leather? Na! It's got to be a place that sells leather. In this case I think that's gotta be number #1.
There may be an argument that the product might be most important. If this sign is down the road from the store, the best message might be Leather Outlet...1 mile. Save big!
What about the phone number? Is it really necessary on a sign read by moving traffic? Important question since the phone number is taking up valuable space on the sign.
Sign designers will argue about the importance of phone numbers forever. I feel that phone numbers are great in phone books, but unecessary on a sign. Unless someone in a vehicle has a paper and pencil ready and/or is willing to backtrack for the phone number, it's just taking up valuable space we can make better use of.
The same goes for truck lettering, but I always gave in and included a phone number just in case the truck is parked. A 1-2" phone number is easily read from 20-50 feet away.
That just about takes care of Step One. We've talked about why "less is more" is so important to a sign designer. We've also learned how to separate text into idea groups and prioritize those groups. Seems like simple stuff, but it's an important first step.
Our next job is to learn how big a letter can be read from a given distance. You'll find some useful info about that subject at a post in the Tips & Tricks Forum. Here's a link.
Once we know what size letter we need to read at a desired distance, we can discuss what letterstyle and letter weight to use. One thing I already know. On an 8x8 sign, microgramma and eurostile are out. Stay tuned!
[ December 16, 2003, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
Dave take no offense here but on an 8x8 sign similar to that pic(more or less) Ice Pearl eyes aren't going to be real visible,its gonna be too subtle effect from any type distance unless they get right up on it,stand there and stare...if they are going to do that its one thing,but most prob noone will know its there but you...just $.03
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Welcome Dave. Do you have a way to scan? I think you could learn a lot if you made some small, loose thumbnails of ideas you have and post them for critique. Hit the trade mags for inspiration (or really ANY publication that has ads in it) and take a stab at it. Don't sweat any details at this stage, just use lines and blocks to sort out the groups of elements. Then let us rip it to shreads - FUN!
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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But remember that an 8x8 sign on top of a 30' pole is gonna look like a postage stamp up there. I'm assuming that is the distance from the ground to the bottom of the sign. You have to envision a right triangle here; with the vertical distance being the pole and the horizontal distance as the optimum viewing distance. Using right triangle mathematics, the viewing distance is actually the hypotenuse. (that diagonal measurement)
Take Jill's advice and use a dark background with light colored copy. Also, light on the copy. Follow Steve's advice and try and determine what needs to be there. Less is better. A dark panel may help break up the monopoly of the white background; which would otherwise engulf the whole design, especially at night and if it's internally illuminated. Also, be aware of color values and contrast.
Once you decide on the copy and how it will look, print a sketch. Determine its ratio to real size. Attach it to a wall, step back and measure how far away it can be viewed. Multiply that by the ratio and you should have the distances elements of the sign will be visible. Compare that with the distance determined in the first paragragh to know if it will work or not.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 703 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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The weaknesses that leap out at me on this layout are that there are too many words for an 8x8 highway sign especially on a 30' pole. Dropping the phone number would help with that. There is too little space between the lettering and the edges of the board. The colors are oh so common and uninteresting. The bike is too faint for it's size. "The Leather Connection" is too plain and could use a second element such as a shade or outline. There is too much italic lettering. Some "bullets" would be nice between the words Vests Jackets Chaps. It all adds up to a very plain and uninteresting sign that would not catch the eye. By the way, the rule of thumb for size to distance readability is about 3" of vertical letter per 100'. I'm sure you could improve that design without too much effort Dave. Good luck!
Drew
-------------------- Andrew Parker Parker Sign Metaline Falls, WA mycotrope@potc.net
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything" ---Wyatt Earp Posts: 9 | From: Metaline Falls, WA | Registered: Nov 1998
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...Think leather. ...put yourself in the shoes of the customer. What would attract you.... ...make the viewer want to go in and touch a leather jacket. ...cause the viewer to catch the aroma of leather. ...use colours that tell about the merchandise inside (ex. black and orange shades for the lettering would look pleasing and customer-enticing on a faux pas leather background) If the customer base is much more than Harley clientel, for example, western wear, consider a broader scheme of colours or ...perhaps a central pictorial of a bike complete with it's leather gear on a sunset or other soft landscape in a framed oval...if your not ready to do a leather-look face, try just a smooth taupe or lite tan that will contrast some large, varigated orange copy outlined in black, arching over the oval. Reduce secondary copy and relegate to space across the bottom.
...hope this helps. . . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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...Sorry! Missed that it was gonna be mounted so high! . . .is that installation carved in stone or is it renegotiable? I do a lotta questioning and explaining to customers about what to expect, and what kind'a creative freedom they will allow in order for both of us to look good.
Basically, nothing's really impossible if th client has enough money. When I can reasonably do it,there are times I've gone the extra unpaid mile to make a change that was in the interest of my artistic integrity and was just a fringe for the customer.
Tho' this may seem like I'm shooting myself in the foot, I really end up hitting the mark, because when it works out, and it usually does,(trust your intestinal fortitude and yer common sense) you have the customer's infinite trust and you'll make up the $ on repeat work.
They will pay what you need to charge in the future and just about everytime you see 'em they'll say: "I'm so glad I let you talk me into doin' that! I get more compliments on that sign!"
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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Wow..... I was hoping for a couple of responses but, didn't expect that. You have giving me a lot of details about the basics of sign development and I need to sit down, digest and dig a little more.
Also.... the pole is 30' but, I forgot to mention that, 8 to 10 feet will be in the ground. I also was concerned about the relative size but, I didn't think it would be too out of proportion. And, it is on a small highway just outside of San Marcos, TX.
Really..... Thanks Alot!!! DaveK
-------------------- Dave Kleinman 2406 Orleans Dr Cedar Park, TX Posts: 17 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jul 2003
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Here's something I whipped up quick in Coreldraw...
I dropped "The" and thought more of how it would be listed in the phone book. I also thought the text was a bit too much and dropped the "tag line". The "Leather" is a rubber stamp typeset with a texture fill that could be masked and done in paint fairly easily with a plastic bag. The bike is a clipart file with a few color changes, but a Harley could fit in if needed.
Welcome to Letterville! Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Oh my god Ray!! That is too cool of you to take any of your time to do that!! The only thing that the owner might object to is the type of bike. He is into hard core harley customs. But the rest of it is really great. I like the leather look of the letters, Attached is a quick photo of a bike I just finished for him.
Wow Ray!!! Thanks! DaveK
-------------------- Dave Kleinman 2406 Orleans Dr Cedar Park, TX Posts: 17 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jul 2003
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Oh YEAH Dave! Nice work. If you put as much thought and effort into sign layout as you did those flames and that finish, you'll do just fine sir.
You've obviously got a sense of balance and color - applying it to type carries some special rules that can be learned. A great fundamental background is the Mike Steven's book Mastering Layout that Jill and Bob suggested. You can read it cover to cover in an hour, then go back and spend an hour on each page studying WHY it makes sense and absorbing the beauty of all he is saying. It's practically a must-read if you are serious about doing it right. Whoever did the original 'layout' did NOT read the book.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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If ya get a chance.... rip it to shreads!! Really! I am super thicked skinned and I have really no idea what I am doing so, it woudl only help me. Trying use Illustrato and PS. The only 2 apps that I have. And no expert there as well. The guy won't take it in a black background and he already has too many of the old sign on existing stuff so, I can't change it to much but, he let me change the bike.
Thanks for any comments... especially the bad ones!! DaveK
-------------------- Dave Kleinman 2406 Orleans Dr Cedar Park, TX Posts: 17 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jul 2003
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well, if nothing else, I'll give up some more opportunity for pointers from others, but I did try to offer the few changes that came to mind for me without really starting over.
Just using your own elements (minus one sentance) I looked at cutting the top of the sign to fit the shape of the chopper, resizing, distorting & kerning the business name (would rather select new font... but just a quick variation on a theme here) & adding a little negative space, as well as changing darks & lights.
posted
That's very cool looking Doug!!. I do like that better as well and had purposed it with the bike on top but, he didn't like it or the one with leather type font. Again he didn't want to change it too much from the original. But, thanks so much for time spent trying.
Thanks Again Dave
-------------------- Dave Kleinman 2406 Orleans Dr Cedar Park, TX Posts: 17 | From: Austin, TX | Registered: Jul 2003
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Like you, I am still learning, and this site is a great place to learn.
When I read your post last night it reminded me of a couple customers I have who don't really want anything fancy or a whole lot of time and/or money spent. Just big, plain and easy to read. Because of reading this site, I usually try to give them a couple options...one of them very plain and the other a step or two up. Most of the time they can be brought up a notch or two with the design...which of course costs a little more. This is where you really find out how much they want to spend.
Here is another take on the artwork. Maybe a piece of it works for you or your customer, even if it doesn't I got in a little practice.
-------------------- Ace Graphics & Printing Camdenton, MO. USA
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Sometimes it's not too fun working with a customer who has very rigid ideas of what he wants - but it's always a challenge. As a Letterhead, I think it's my place to know as much as I can about this craft, and to educate the public as much as possible, so I'm turning out a product I can be proud of (whenever possible). It helps me emotionally and professionally - it helps the customer sell his product easier - and it even helps the public, who has something pleasant to look at.
We don't always get to do what we'd like. But we can always give it our best shot. In this case, I agree, there's no need to set the world on fire, and he won't appreciate the effort or accept it.
That layout of yours has some good stuff in it. It can be improved greatly, simply by giving yourself some more margin. This is that all important 'white space' or 'negative space' you'll hear a lot about. It's critical.
The only other things I changed was un-stretching the artwork, and putting the phone in a reverse panel. I like the colors you chose. This is strong and uncluttered. Will make a good sign for the guy. Hope it comes out to your liking.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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