posted
Just reading up a little bit about Earnest Hemmingway after reading a quote attributed to him in another post. Seems although he was a sometimes talented writer, in the end he suffered from mental illness which greatly affected his judgement and reasoning abilities...which culminated in the ending of his own life. A fascinating writer? Most probably. A philosopher worthy of hanging your hat on? Debatable.
I can't help but wonder if some of his creativity came from a make-believe world in an alternate section of his mind. One may never know..but it does make one ponder his thinking process.
I'm wondering if he would have been more stable had he access to today's mental health drugs. It seems a shame that he and anyone should suffer with such mental demons...and I can't help but feel sorry for those that lived with this type of problem prior to the advent of modern depression medications and therapies. Read on for a glimpse into this man's fight with his mental faculties, it's very interesting:
T he first of many delusions that Ernest would suffer from, happened when he was supposed to take a car trip with friends. He decided not to go, revealing to Hotchner his concern over Bill, one of his friends who would be driving. He was convinced that Bill was trying to kill him, saying that the last time they went for a drive he tried to run him off a cliff. Everyone became very worried about Ernest, his incessant obsessions and delusions, wondering what was wrong with him. Finally, when they were at a restaurant together, it was apparent that Ernest needed help. He, for some unknown reason, grabbed the waiter by the sleeve and began shouting at him, questioning him about whether or not he was Spanish or Polish. When the waiter replied that he was Polish, Ernest berated him even further.
The delusions continued to grow when Ernest was in Rochester, as he became convinced that the Feds were after him. He would tell Hotchner that the Feds had cars following him on the road and that his phone was tapped as well as his house. Once when he was out with some friends, he demanded that they leave because of two men sitting at the bar, who he thought were FBI agents following him. When Hotchner found out that they were salesmen and tried to convince Ernest of the fact, he became irate and replied, "Of course they're salesmen. The FBI is noted for its clumsy disguises. What do you think they'd pose as -concert violinists?"
At Ketchum, Idaho Ernest was trying to finish a manuscript and for the first time found that he couldn't. That was the final blow to his abilities as a man and as a writer, the two being intertwined. On April 18th at 11:00 am on Sunday morning, Mary found Ernest standing with a gun in one hand and shells in the other. There was a note to her propped up on the gun rack. She distracted him just long enough for Vernon, the doctor, to arrive. Ernest gave the gun up without a struggle. Vernon confided to Hotchner about Ernest's condition: "Hotch, honest to God, if we don't get him to the proper place, and fast, he is going to kill himself for sure. It's only a question of time if he stays here, and every hour it grows more possible. He says he can't write any more - that's all he's talked to me about for weeks and weeks. Says there's nothing to live for. Hotch, he won't ever write again. He can't. He's given up. That's the motivation for doing away with himself."
Ernest was then admitted to the Mayo clinic, where he endured electroconvulsive shock treatment; prescribed for severely depressed patients. Irvin D. Yalom, psychiatrist at Stanford University School of Medicine, stated that Hemingway struggled all his life with severe characterologic problems. In 1960 the signs of depression started to become evident: anorexia, severe weight loss, insomnia, deep sadness, total pessimism, and self-destructive trends. The shock treatments he received were known to be ineffectual when strong paranoid symptoms accompanied the depression. Hemingway complained that the shock treatments destroyed his memory and his ability to write. The treatments were known to cause memory loss and to cause the patient to become suicidal for a short period of time. They stopped the treatments in the middle of the cycle and let him go home to Ketchum. It was there that he finally fulfilled his plan of suicide. He woke up one morning, put the shotgun in his mouth and blew himself away. Just like his father, Ernest took his own life.
Do you think creative types tend to have more emotional/mental problems than those of the non-creative population?
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Gee Todd, just because you disagreed with the quote from another post, you back it up with this? Anyways, it is too bad he doesn't live in present times where pharmacueticals cure all of our problems. That's why we now give our children Ritalin and other mood enhancing drugs. Works good late in life, try to get to them earlier.
Madness, mental illness, etc. cross a lot of boundaries. Egocentric types seem to suffer more. There may be even a religious aspect to that.
It is my understanding Hemingway was suffering with cancer and took the warriors way out, rather than suffer. Who knows?
As far as people not suffering anymore, you should reexamine that. I just did work for a mental health clinic and you should see the poor mind-numbed zombies there. The patients didn't look any better either.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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To answer your question, I think creative individuals have a greater propensity towards getting in trouble with alcohol.
Hemingway was a good example of that.
When I quoted him I wondered, who in the group would take the messenger apart, rather than let the message sink in.
Hemingway served in the Italian army as an ambulance driver and was wounded in the legs. That is where the emotional energy came from in the book "A Farewell to Arms."
I wonder now, Todd, since you took the time to accentuate the negative, if you will proceed and continue your studies and read the Hemingway books you have not yet read.
You will find magnificent insightful stories, and you will end up knowing how to spell his name.
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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[ December 15, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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David, please forgive me if somehow you interpreted the post as "backing up" something.
My real angle here is that in checking out what Hemmingway is/was all about I discovered he seemed to be suffering from some sort of paranoid delusions. I knew he killed himself, but didn't know why [for sure]until I researched a bit. I thought it was due to alcoholism...but evidently that was not the case.
While I admit I didn't agree at all with the post you refer to, my real curiosity was piqued in wondering what the correlation between mental illness type problems and the creative mind are.
And I wonder if certain forms of metal instability can even enhance creativity?
It seems that a lot of creative types I know have struggled with various forms of emotional issues...and while like you say, it's far from "cured", from what I hear, some of the available drugs and therapies have dramatically helped a lot of people. If I had a debilitating bout with this type of emotional torture...I wouldn't hesitate to try any treatment available.
At least there is an alternative and reason for hope these days...not to mention the stigma is not what it once was, although I think it reasonable to be hesitant to take to heart quotations of paranoid people.
As I was reading up on Hemmingway, I couldn't help but think of the tortured millions over the course of history that suffered without any hope of relief...
It seems like in this day and age when we can perfectly clone vegetables, cows, and eventually people....we would be able to better understand and cure some of the most torturous human afflictions, which are that of the mind.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I don't think I'm alone in finding statements like, ""It's not as if all you would be "assassins" don't know by now that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11," negative.
I don't consider anyone here a "would be assassin".
And I apologize for mispelling "Hemingway". I'm glad you pointed out my ignorance as that was the "positive" thing to accentuate.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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......Do you suppose D'Vinci was delusional when he made intricate drawings of machinery and believed the concept of aviation? At the time they thought him utterly mad.
What kind of "addictive personality/bi-polar/'skit'zo/co-dependent personality do you suppose Van Gogh had, LOL?
Chagall, I believe it was, was a failure in school.
Check out Einstein. . .he could'nt tie his own shoes.
How 'bout all the autistic people who are completely disfunctional in basic communication and often co-ordination, yet many of them possess unbelievable musical or mathematical talents beyond what most gifted/talented people strive for years to achieve.
For some reason this tho't comes to mind, that even a naturally, emotional & mentally-stunted chimpanzee can be taught sign-language and generate proper as well as improper emotional responses to certain events. Consider that the human mind is created so inconceivabley and infinitely more advanced than any living thing on earth.
It's my own personal theory that creative people may just be nothing more than functioning autistic geniuses, continuously frustrated by the demands of everyday life because they, after all, possess the aptitude to function in the everday (. . .'er, at least some do, LOL) and for most creative people all that everyday livin' can simply quench, abbreviate or totally destroy all creativity. By "everyday" I mean stuff you HAVE to do: kids, laundry,job, blah, blah blah....it's so important to "get away" and find a place to reflect and absorb the creative processes's, yet even doing this becomes another "chore" due to the restraints of time.
Alas . ..there are only 24 hours in a day and each one only lasts 60 minutes, lol.
There are only 3 primary colours, and black and white, but I can put them together in a completely unique way, when I have time, and with more time I could MASTER whatever medium I choose to until completely satisfied with the results and the personal journey.
There are only 12 musical notes on the face of the earth, but when I have the almighty time I can write a song that I've never heard before and with more time I could MASTER the instruments of my choice.
There are only 26 letters in my language's alphabet, but when the clock-God allows the time or I irresponsibly let some everyday task(s) go and just steal it, I can write a lot of stuff. With more time I could MASTER writing and have a best-seller.
Do you suppose Hemmingway suffered from this sort of maddening frustration?
I confess that I often function with a lump in my throat and get severely depressed because I'm a mere jack-of-all trades an' master of none . I completely disgust myself and it's not even myself's fault, except for not being able to live life over knowing what I kno' now and doin' all this stuff when my parents would've financially supported me, LOL, NOOOO, I had to leave home an' become an' INdependent. Ever the optimist, I like to imagine that someday I'll be able to retire to some artist's mecca and pour myself out. To me , utopia would be absolutely no-holds- barred-non-stop creating. I would exhaust every idea, colour, note, instrument, letter, fabric, wood, metal, of my choice until I could rid myself of the desire for that process, and the end's "sacrifices": going without sleep, food, everyday anemities, socializing, etc. would justify the means.
Hey, I hear there's a gov'ment grant and a slab o' cheese to allow me my creative indulgences, LOL Too bad "big-brother" would have to put me in a "politically correct box" thereby institutionalizing, controlling and stuntin' my style.
Have a great, howbeit, burdened day. I always try to.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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I want to apologize for offending and riling you, Todd. I was reacting in kind, and should have resisted it.
It is tiring to have the point I try to make deflected in order to not look at the meat of the message. As I said, I even predicted just that would happen. It is now so successfully deflected that there is a new post on Hemingway and mental illness.
What, by the way, was the Hemingway quote I cited?
If, by chance, you don't remember without looking back to the post, but remember the author's shortcomings you uncovered in your search for his invalidation, then my point is made.
Also: If you take offense at my "would be assassins remark" then re-read the many ways of killing Saddam that were proposed by the people who were celebrating our finding him in his hole. How else was I to interpret these statements?
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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PS. ...Perhaps I started my life's journey as a drug-addicted, alcholic, self-abusive, "victim" because, at age 11, I started realizing that I had all these incredible urges an' tendencies for art, music and writing and no means of gettin' it out or encouragement to do so...My parents were hard working, everyday, people who saw the arts as merely time consumong "hobby" and NOT a wise career choice. No "blaming' here. That's just how it was...so, "numb the pain is the name o' the game". It only took me to age 19 to burn out. It's taken me to 41 to figg'er some of that craziness an' wasted time I've experienced. There are only about a few seconds or possibly up to as many as 49 years left. I'll never screw it up again fryin', numbin' altering my gifted mind. There's a huge possibility that I may never get to creative utopia. There's no possibility of it if I attempt to go stoned. All said, I'm quite thankful to the Lord for lettin' me find that out.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I can't help but wonder if some of his creativity came from a make-believe world in an alternate section of his mind. One may never know..but it does make one ponder his thinking process.
To someone like that his "make-believe" world is often more real to them than the "real" world the rest of us have to deal with every day. Unfortunately, the world of Wal-Mart and reality tv programs has become the accepted norm in our society and someone who cannot adapt and function in that world is considered crazy even though they are capable of producing art or music or something else that is spectacularly beautiful and brilliant.
-------------------- Kimberly Zanetti Purcell www.amethystProductivity.com Folsom, CA email: Kimberly@AmethystProductivity.com
“Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up.” AA Milne Posts: 3722 | From: Folsom, CA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Geez, Myra! After 3 years I just now noticed that the young man who built my portfolio website spelled Hemingway incorrectly!!
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Todd, I appreciate your post on Hemingway. It brings inisght into a man that wrote so well. It brings his life into perspective for me and see his motivation.
Just like the bio of Edgar Allen Poe brought that man into my mind. In fact, he too suffered from self medication problems due to wounds.
Thank you
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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He was wounded in a duel???????/ i don't remember the details exactly..
However, he did use opium for the pain and we all know what that leads too.
Poe suffered from severe mental depression and declining physical health (possibly caused by malnutrition and severe drinking binges)
He died penniless Oct 7, 1849 and buried in a paupers grave.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nobody seems to know for sure, but here is one theory/ account of his death:
Edgar Allan Poe's is among the most spectacular of literary deaths: He was discovered lying outside a pub in Baltimore, trembling and raving. He died three days later in a nearby hospital. Because Poe had been an alcoholic, his death has usually been attributed to withdrawal from drink. Now a researcher at the University of Maryland Medical Center says it is likely that he was killed by rabies.
Poe slipped into a coma soon after he was admitted to the hospital. He snapped out of it two days later and spoke lucidly to visitors. Then he quickly spiraled downward: Delirium overtook him and he fought with doctors until he had to be restrained.
The fitful course of his condition does not match the progression of alcoholism, according to R. Michael Benitez, an assistant professor of medicine at the medical center. Poe's family also swore that he had been abstinent for half a year.
A patient with rabies suffers from bouts of confusion as well as wild swings in his pulse rate, which Poe's doctor documented.
Hydrophobia is another symptom of rabies, and Poe reportedly could barely swallow the water that was given to him. Poe was a cat lover, and it is possible that one of his pets bit him. "I would say that the conclusion that he did not die from alcohol is very solid," Dr. Benitez says. "All the facts of the case fit the possible diagnosis of rabies, but we will never know for sure." He analyzed the Poe case without knowing who the patient was, as part of a weekly workshop in pathology at the medical center. His findings were published in the September issue of Maryland Medical Journal.
Here's another vague account:
In late September and in seemingly good health, Poe left Richmond for New York where he planned to assist another lady friend in the editing of her manuscripts. But for some unknown reason, Poe stopped in Baltimore. On October 3, 1849, an election day, Poe was found deliriously ill, lying half-conscious in the street outside of a polling place and a few yards away from a tavern. Whether Poe was drunk or not has never been conclusively determined. He was taken to a local hospital, still in a delirious state and calling for a polar explorer of the day named Reynolds. He uttered his final words and epitaph, "Lord help my poor soul," on October 7, 1849, and was buried the next day in Baltimore's Presbyterian Cemetery.
And here's another link relating to the rabies theory:
I had wondered about the journey from my quoting Hemingway's view on war (which seemingly fell through the cracks)
to musings and studying of Hemingway's personal struggles with alcohol/life/possible dementia in a post of it's own
to musings about the possible connections of creativity to personal mental problems and failings
to comparisons of good old Ernest to Edgar Allan who was similarly afflicted.
IT WAS CATS. (has anyone else ever visited the Ernest Hemingway House in Key West, and stepped over all the deseased looking cats on the property to get in?)
-------------------- Myra A. Grozinger Signs Limited Winston-Salem, NC
signslimited@triad.rr.com Posts: 1244 | From: Winston-Salem, NC USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dear Frannie... Ask not for whom the bell tolls... It tolls for thee! Good night, Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are! Love-JILL
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I DO know who Mrs. Calabash was... Hahahahahahaha!
Wonder if they moved north yet?
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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-------------------- Mike Pulskamp Pulskamp Arts Sacramento, CA mpulskamp@earthlink.net Posts: 165 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Dec 2002
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interesting post....and i think iam the only one here that actually had CAT SCRATCH FEVER!!!! no joke! i was givin 6 months to live and diagnosed with advanced lukemeia. this was 1954-55 and a vetranarian student came to the cancer ward i was in and was asking if any of us had pets...i told him yea, a cat it stratched me and he took a biopsy of the spot it scratched me....2 days later i was sent home with a clean bill of health!!! up untill this time i was diagnosed with it, little had been know about this disease. most where diagnosed as advanced lukemeia and were left to die/or operated on to remove swollen lymph glands...and this just helped to kill the patient. another symtom of this disease is elevated temp, or low grade fever constantly 99-100 all the time, and if any of you remember how your thought process works when you have a fever, then you can understand that if these writers had the same disease, why they seemed so crazy at times. add in alcohol and drugs, and boy you got a real wako on your hands. i still have cats, and still get scratched now and then.
[ December 21, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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