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Now that I'm going to have alot more room, I need to get myself a table saw. What do you recommend? How do you set it up in your shop to be useful? Did you build a bigger table to cut 4X8's?
I'm 3 hours away from a large city, so it's hard to really get a good look at them to compare. I'll appreciate any advice you have. I'd also love a panel saw, but I'm saving my pennies for renovations.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I find the panel saw a lot handier for this kind of work- and much *safer*. My daughter (never used a saw in her life) feels comfortable with the panel saw. Safety Speed Cut.
posted
i have a saw-trax panel saw(w/porter cable skill)...one of the best investments i've ever made....i agree a panel saw is the way to go for most....but then there's those small things or when you need to shave a c/h to square something...i have a nice DWALT table saw for that with the 31 rip fence(cuts like butter)(insert man grunt here)...don't be afraid to spend a little $..these tools will last forever...and it's best not too skimp...(imho) if you can only buy one...make your husband understand you need both.
i'm not a sears craftsmen person(except for small gadgets and some of the drill bit sets)...had a sears table saw and it was junk...i gave it away.
of course i'm sure you'll hear all different opinions...i pretty much stick to dwalt and porter cable...that's just me.
ps...you can order from toolcrib.com too...i think they'll pay shipping.
[ November 28, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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table saws are like buying a car, a lot of choices and you can spend a little to a ton of money. for most people i have a sears $189.00 table saw...it will rip a full 24"(half a 4x8)10" blade so it will 45 degree a 2" thick piece of wood, 3 hp so it wont bog down. has easy screw type up/down,angle ajdustments. i also have a 10" radial arm saw, so i got sawin covered. my friend in sarasota has a door making co, he does custom doors to the tune of $5000-10,000 dollar each, and his shop has a table saw that was close to $3000 new!! so depending on your usage, you can spend a little or a lot....just put your hands on it before you buy it....you will be the one operating it...so you need to know how well it will work.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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We have both a radial arm saw and a shopsmith table saw but we mostly use something much cheaper.
It's called a portable panel saw from www.pennstateind.com It consists of a long piece of aluminum angle and a carriage that bolts to your circular saw. Just clamp it to your plywood and push the saw. Perfect cuts every time! It costs $99 and we couldn't live without it.
ernie
-------------------- Ernie Balch Balch Signs 1045 Raymond Rd Malta, NY 518-885-9899 Posts: 405 | From: Malta, NY | Registered: Jan 2003
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I have a simpler and much cheaper version of what Ernie has to cut up large panels. It's simply a 6" x 96" piece of 1/4" tempered hardboard laminated along one top long edge of a 14" x 96" piece of tempered hardboard. Just make sure they are straight!
The narrower piece on top serves as a guide along the base a hand held circular saw to trim the excess width from the lower piece. Then the wider lower piece which serves as a base for the circular saw is used as a straight-edge to line up along the desired cut line. No need to compensate for the base of the saw. Then the jig is clamped along the desired cut-line on a large panel set up on two sawhorses that have a sacrificial surface. The circular saw should be set to cut at least 1/8" but no more than 1/4" more than the panel being cut. Then let 'er rip!
This system is actually simpler than it sounds. If enough people are interested I can take a digital pic of the jig and have someone post it. I saw it in a cabinetry magazine many years ago and have used it to quickly and efficiently cut down large panels ever since. I have a Mastercraft table saw that cuts up to 24" and it works great but I find it much quicker and easier to use my handy little jig.
I also made a similar jig to make 90 degree cross-cuts up to 24". Both jigs take a miniscule fraction of the space of any panel saw. Table saws are best used for cutting smaller panels unless you have huge floor space for a large solid, flat surface in front of and behind the table saw so that you can run a 4x8 through it. Sawhorses never seem to be stable enough and trying to hold a large panel steady is tough. I get a much cleaner and consistant cut with my $5 jig and circular saw.
I had planned to eventually make the jig out of aluminum but that hardboard one has held up for years and is still going strong.
-------------------- Happy Signing...... Marty
M.F. (Marty) Happy Signmaker Since 1974 Happy Ad Sign & Design Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4 306-789-9567 happyad@sasktel.net www.happyad.ca
Get Happy & Get Noticed! Posts: 773 | From: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: Jan 1999
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No matter what saw you choose be sure to either extend the bak out at least 4 feet or buy a roller stand to catch the plywood so they don't drop.thats how people get hurt.Sear makes a good medium duty saw.hope this helps-Randy
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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The quality of saw should be defined by its intended use. If ripping a 4x8 is your goal, most any saw will work. If you want to build signs that are moe furniture quality, Craftsman is not what you want. I prefer a saw that is belt driven over one that has the blade mounted on a shaft stright from the motor. Better saws have multiple belts. I really like my Unisaw. I had a craftsman for many years and found it to be construction site quality. There was some side play to the blade which made a cut that If I really wanted it straight I'd run it through the jointer afterwards. Ask about bearings or bushings and if the arbor can be rebuilt? I'd prefer a used saw of better quality than a new one that is mediocre. Have fun with your quest
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6715 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A good panel saw will make you more money than any other single tool in your shop. Period.... Try to get one that you can change tools on to cut plastic and mat board, foam board, etc.
posted
A lot of people are suggesting panel saws and I think for the sign industry they are right. You do need the room to set them up or wall space! (Table saws need floor space). Just place the panel on and cut it is a one-person operation and very quick. Now with a table saw if you do not have proper run out tables then you will need two or more people to help you cut a 4 x 8 in half. Plus they are slower to make the same cut and they may not be as accurate for large pieces or thin pieces. Also they are inherently more dangerous from kick back and lost fingers etc. My high school shop teacher had a piece or wood kick back into his stomach it could of killed him.
But like you asked the sears table saw is cheaper than a panel saw so it might be the reason you go that way. If you do buy the table saw build it into a large cutting table/run out table workstation and always use proper safety procedures.
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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I wore out three Craftsman 10" table saws before I bought my Delta Unisaw, which I have had for about 10 years now. The Unisaw set me back about $1400 but it was money well spent. I had a large table for it but it became too much of a catch all. When we remodeled the shop last year, I went back to using its original table. I use the adjustable free standing rollers if I have to cut a large awkward piece.
I have made several of the jigs Marty mentioned. Probably the handiest one is the 5' one. I use it for crosscuts on panels. I clamp the jig down with about 6" extra on each end and the extra length allows the saw base to be flush with the guide for the entire cut.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Suelynn, I would stay away from Craftsman, They are homeowner tools and do not last. A panel saw is the easiest to use for one person. There is one in the paper here for $1500., man I wish I had the cash!
I am using a homemade tablesaw, A "Sears Best" circular saw mounted upside down on a 2'x6' table, with removeable legs at the feed end & the cut end, but it is not for everybody. I also use the straight edge clamped to the board for straight cuts & a radial arm saw set up to cut 14" crosscuts.
Cheers & Good Luck.
-------------------- Rob Thomas 3410 Ketcham Ct Beautiful Springs FL 34134 Posts: 965 | From: Bonita Springs, Florida USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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30 years ago I made a table saw out of a Black & Decker circular 7" saw upside down. It was never really square, and impossible to cut angles, but for chopping up sign blanks and firewood it was okey-dokey. I used a piece of angle iron with quick clamps for a fence, and replaced the top several times. As the bushings wore the blade would wander - I recently bought a 10" Sears $300 job on sale for $160 - probably the same model Old Paint has - it's like a Cadillac compared to my home-made relic. I'd love to be set up like that Yankee wood guy on TV - but if I had that kind of money I'd probably fix the steering in my truck...
Posts: 1859 | From: / | Registered: Nov 1998
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Up side down black and decker skill saw I did that once and I built one 10 x 12 shed by the time I was done so was the saw the bearing was completely gone and it was not worth repairing.
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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I`ve got a Delta contractors 10" table saw,great saw..easy to slide out of the way in my smallish bay.If I had the room the unisaws are awesome, just real heavy and can`t be moved around easily. I also have a safety speed cut panel saw and cannot imagine living without it, best investment ever for cutting sheet goods. Try to stay away from craftsman power tools, they are more for the weekend warrior not commercial work. Whatever saw you get ,remember to work safe, I have lots of friends with missing digits from saws.
'
-------------------- Bob & Marcia Peach Peach Signs Inc Sandwich, MA rpeach9828@aol.com Posts: 1020 | From: Sandwich, MA | Registered: Jan 2002
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I can't imagine life again without my panel saw. My panel saw could never replace my table saw. I have seen panel saws where they mounted a router making it a tool for dado's and rabbits.
A panel saw will require a wall over 16' long to be kept clear if you need to rip a 4x8. I find them handy for the cross cut stuff, and not for ripping. Radial arm saws can rip also, but who'd ever do that?
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6715 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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The same saw was made by Ryobi and the parts are interchangeable. Sears cut a few corners on the base compared to the Ryobi. I've had the Ryobi version for 4 years now, quite versatile for the money. You definitely need to build extensions beind the saw and there's an optional guide extension(~$130 Cdn). I'd be willing to entertain any questions you may have on it.
P.S. If I ever get to the 100K club I'd buy all Rigid/Festool tools, but until then I'm going to live within my means.
posted
Hiya Suelynn, I can't comment on that saw but we do have a belt driven Craftsman table saw at the shop. Here's a crappy picture of how we have it set up. If you're planning on cutting down 4 by 8's on a regular basis with it, do yourself a favor. Save the money and wait to buy a panel saw. In the mean time the suggestions that Ernie & Marty make are a good idea. I also recall Henry from Sweden posting a similar commercial product a few months ago. I will add that my only work related injury, which required a hospital visit, was caused by the table saw in the photo. I was trimming a 1/4" off a 4 x 8 acrylic panel when the strip broke off and shot into my hand. Not a pleasant feeling.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I have a good quality table saw I bought a number of years ago. I paid good bucks for the saw and then upped the ante with a real good (read expensive) fence system. The table saw has an extension attachment kit to extend the bed... never had the room to add that, but with the new shop I will now for sure!
I bought the saw without the stand and then welded up my own right away, complete with good quality castors so I can move it easily around the shop. Most of my larger tools are on wheels so I can roll them out of the way when not in use.
I'd love a panel saw too, but in my shop wall space is at a much higher premium than floor space. So I will make do with my versitile table saw instead. I tend to do much more ripping than cross cutting. For the narrow cross cuts I have a good compound miter saw. For full sheets I use the table saw no problem, even by myself. I just go slow and keep my hands clear of that nasty blade!
I'd buy as good a quality saw as you can possible afford. It will last much longer and be easier to use. The quality of cuts will be appreciated too with better equipment.
The few low quality tools (read Craftsman or Black & Decker) I have are to be replaced with better quality ones shortly. The old ones (still working) will go to family who are just setting up their own home shops.
Have fun with your purchase and your new equipment!
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Go in and take a look at www.festool-usa.com : Click on Products, Product reviews. Click on any of the reviews lots of pics..
I have a panelsaw we use as an easel, I use my Festo saw and tarck system for everything, have a good look its great stuff. We have there drills which drill round corners or in very tight spots by changing the chuck, routers jigsaws, and dropsaws.
Very innovative and well designed tools, I also have their vacuum system which stop and start automatically as you use tools.
Heres a clip from the site
Festool ATF 55 E Circular Saw Review - Festool System
Let me start right out first by saying that I am in no way affiliated, get any kind of payments or commissions for any products on my site. I mention these companies and products because I am a user, and owner and just pass on my experience using these items worth mentioning to others who might wonder what or how is all.
Well, I never thought I'd see the day when I'd own something like this but if there's one thing I've learned through the years is "never say never". What I mean is...... for years I've ripped sheets in half either with a straight edge, or simply following a chalk line, then walk the 2'x8' pieces over to the table saw for finished sizing, and just couldn't see all this what I call "fancy stuff". I recently completed to installations back to back that cost me considerable time and aggravation.
All year long we've experience a drought, and deliveries and installs weren't a problem. After the deliveries, I found myself having some major fitting due to the room being so far out and couldn't cut or plane in the house without making a huge mess. The client had absolutely no place at all I could do my cutting, like a garage or porch and the rain came down for 3 day's straight once I got there. I don't have to tell you the frustrations for both of us. A room full of cabinets they couldn't use, and I couldn't complete to pick up the final payment.
I spotted Festool's set up a while back, and it was a hard swallow to justify the cost, but after these two back to back jobs, it was well worth the cost. They are a German company, with great engineering and allot of problem solving thoughts that went into their tool line. Allot of things are different than what we are use to seeing, but I'll tell you....... they sure made a believer out of me.
Festool has a great system, in that you can produce clean finished cuts fine enough to start using without taking that extra step of resizing on the table saw, or jointer. Since my back injury, I've begun to look at things a whole lot differently. This business going to the back of the shop to resize and handle things twice came to an end with Festool. Now...... I know this can be done with a regular saw and straight edge but the problem that happens is that a circular saws get beat up with time and I don't know how many times I've scratched some finished sheeting from some burr under the circular saw table. I've sanded the bottoms, then you leave the dirty aluminum markings. I've used tape on the edges to have it tear, then add another layer of tape and at some point its got to be all taken off again and replaced. Once your done with the saw, it gets knocked around in a cabinet, on the floor, or truck tool box to pick up more burrs. No one likes to buy tools twice, and it just didn't make sense to me to buy another circular saw when I already have one. Then comes the dust. Cutting MDF is about the messiest thing in the world. Try and sweep it out of the driveway and it takes forever. Cutting on the table saw even with dust collection, and a fine sediment settles everywhere.
Here's where I love the Festool system!!!!!!!!!!!! I can just grab a sheet off the truck and pull it on to my saw horses and cut my sheets to exactly what I need without re-sizing. With a regular straight edge, you measure what you need then deduct the saw table and I've seen to many times where my finished cut varied with all this measuring going on. Another thing that happens from time to time is not keeping the saw tightly against the straight edge, or too tight and have the edge move slightly because you didn't clamp it tight enough.
Festool has a great system. The straight edge has 3 strips of rubber that keeps the guide right where you place it. It takes quite an effort to slide the guide due to these rubber strips, and I soon found that I could cut without even clamping it down.
It does however, have a neat clamp that slides into a channel designed for their clamp, so that the clamp doesn't interfere with the saw when cutting.
Prior to doing any cutting, you run the saw down the guide cutting the access rubber. What this does is leave an exact zero tolerance left over that is placed right on the finished mark, and that's exactly where the cut will be, thus eliminating deducting and re measuring later. Cutting with a straight edge you have to use a certain amount of force to keep the saw against the edge, and a pushing motion to keep the saw going forward. Festool's system has a channel on the guide, and the saw has a matching groove that sits onto the channel. There's a small adjusting screw that eliminates any slight play in the groove, and the saw simply glides forward on the rail.
Now, why is this better? Well....... several reasons I couldn't understand till I actually got to try it. For openers, your not pushing, or holding anything tight......... you just glide the saw along its rail. No screw ups! Believe it or not, I'm actually cutting MDF in this pic below!!!!!!!!!!
Another thing I didn't consider was the plunge of the saw. This saw is different than a typical saw. Normally with a regular circular saw, you would wait till it stops, then set the saw on the floor or driveway, so the saw won't mark the finished material. Then what happens is that the table picks up a possible burr or pebble, and the next cut here comes a scratch. The plunge action of Festool's saw allows me to leave the saw right there, in the guide on the material. When my hand comes off the handle, the blade retracts, and saw stops dead.
Now, anyone who's put a saw down with out looking knows what a slowing blade can do to a chord. I've even had a Rockwell with a sticking guide creep along the floor on its teeth when I set it down, and run over my foot! Luckily I didn't get hurt, but the finished oak flooring had the teeth marks and a partial cut that had to be repaired, and that took care of the profit I had hope to make on that job. Now here's the best part. I'm one of these guy's from the old school. Learn how to do something one way, and you don't want to change the way its done. When HVLP came out and I started anything with a vacuum hose, I knew I was gona have an aggravation to deal with that would just turn my world upside down! Now comes sanders on DIY shows with cute little hoses, and gadgets that's just NEVER going to happen with this puppy, let alone some hose gizmo dangling off a circular saw.
I've got a collection of vac's that are ridiculous! A shop vac, portable smaller version, then a hand held dirt devil. All vac's hoses stink! Hoses are to stiff, to short and besides having little flexibility, they always come off the vac! Festools extractor (vac) is a total dream. It comes with a hose that's about 10', and extremely flexible. Its has power enough to be used as a shop vac, even though the hose is a bit smaller in diameter. Its got a nice ring type connection that plugs into the saw to catch the dust, and I mean it catches the dust, and guess what? Its got a bag system! Man......... know more blowing out the darn fins or wraps to increase suction anymore.
So here I am entertaining all these do dads, and I can just see my world turning upside down. Not only have I got this hose to deal with, but now comes extension chords up the yang-yang. Nope! One extension to the vac and that's it! The circular saw chord is plenty long to reach the entire cut, and get this....... it plugs right into the extractor (vac). Pretty neat heh?......but that isn't the end to the neat part. There's a switch on the Vac (extractor) that turns from auto-to manual. Manual when you want to run the vac alone but auto (now get this) turns on only when the saw trigger is activated. Yup...... no noisy vac to hear running before and after your cutting. Both turn on and off with the saw trigger. If you stop midway through the cut to answer a phone call....... just take you hand off the saw. The plunge retracts, stays in the guide still on the zero tolerance finish cut line, and the vac shuts off simultaneously. When your through, just pick up where you left off.......gliding the saw along the rail till completion. When its done, no mess to clean, no mask to wear and just start gluing! Man, I wished I had this set up on those two prior installations! The customer would have been happier, and I would have gotten my money that day..........and what a referral I would have got leaving a job neat as a pin.
Here's another bonus that I hadn't thought of, that Festool did. What do you do with this set up once your done? I hate boxes with a passion. I don't save any of them, but this one sits right on top of the extractor, so it just made sense to me to keep the box, and never worry about this saw getting knocked around picking up those dreaded burrs. The extractor has a handle so it can be carried in one hand, and wheels that are so neat to roll and have a lock when you don't want it to roll. I don't know how many times my shop vac has tipped over by pulling on the hose going around something. Ever empty a shop vac full of fine sawdust and shavings? Ha! There's another pain.
Here's another great use for this set up. Ever buy lumber that has a wicked crown (curve), and several passes on a jointer is a must before you can even think of using it? You dread the jointer either because your not that great with one, and usually end up still with a crown, or you don't have a large enough jointer to do this right or maybe not even having a jointer at all? Well..... you just lay the guide on the lumber, and just cut for a nice clean, straight rip that will be just as good as anything off a jointer! The blades they carry are not some "finish wanna bee's" but precision assortments to handle anything. This set up is a fine piece of engineering, and so is the carbide finish blade and also have special blades for cutting melamine that equal Forrest in my book.
There's no doubt in my mind the sander is next, so is the plane, and router. The cabinet I did on this last job had to be 3/8" wider than needed to be scribed. I used my DeWalt planer and the mess was unbelievable.
Here's another use. Ever have to cut door bottoms, like I had to do on this previous job and had no where to do this without creating a mess? Can't take it outside because its raining? Not anymore!
Look closely at how much MDF dust was left after the full 8' cut. What you also see is the small rubber particles from the prior cut. I swear, after sweeping these crumbs up, I could have placed everything on a quarter! Try that the next time you cut MDF!
Probably the most used feature I like is the cleaning aspect. This is what attracted me to Festool to begin with. A good vac system I didn't have to pull around like my large wet and dry vac. As mentioned, the hose either pulls out as your pulling along, or it tips over. I just ordered another section of hose and a cleaning accessory kit and can use it right where it remains parked. The hose reaches clear across the shop
Wait till the day comes you have to change out some T&G oak flooring and have to get a precision cut to remove and replace. The guide with those rubber strips, holds in place and you can expect the precision of a table saw in the cut. Have to replace sub floor but it goes under an existing wall? This saw guides along a wall, leaving only 3/8" left that will easily be covered when the baseboard is attached, after that sheet has been replaced. I keep wanting to say "the best feature is", but there are so many new discoveries I make the more I use it and could go on and on filling pages. All I can say is...... if you can justify the cost, you'll find this to be a great addition to your shop, just as I have. Is this some sort of "super saw"?.......I wouldn't go that far, but certainly offers allot for the money for my use. They have a package for the saw, vac, guide and extra blade for 675.00 and that's what I got mine for. I also think McFeeley's has the line, but visit Festools site at:
and order a catalog. Also see John Lucas's site at: http://www.woodshopdemos.com/ for more information and use on this well engineered tool. Am I glad I bought it? You bet!
You might also want to contact Bob Marino at: ROBARLMAR@aol.com where I ordered mine from
posted
Hey this is great guys! I appreciate your opinions. My hubby thinks I should just get a panel saw, and I agree, but I still think I'd need a table saw for smaller pieces and and squaring things up. I don't think I need a cadillac, but I'd sure like to go a step or two up from the up-side down circular saw!! (No offense to you crafty fellas!)
Here's the pic of Marty's setup.
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey Sue Lynn! How bout a Panel Saw, brand new, for only $35.00? yup, I am having a raffle for a new panel saw here at the muster in Feb 5-6-7 2004! 2 raffle tickets per sign shop!
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
I have a Transpower contractor saw which I have used heavily for over 14 years. The belt needs changing right now(original belt) but other than that, no problems.
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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