posted
We have had heated discussions here on this board wether or not Letterheads should have a formal organization or just left as is.
Then I see a post by Kent Smith about the Denver Letterheads or Colorado Letterheads using money out of their treasury to help out the American Sign Museum. This is a great cause. But the context of that post suggests there are in fact "organized Letterheads"
The point here that I'm fuzzy on is how come there are no "Illinois" letterheads, or New York Letterheads with a somewhat structured format to have a "treasury"?
Every time I have defended the idea that Letterheads have some legal organization for protection purposes, and for member benefits, I nearly get excommunicated. Yet, I see that in Denver, we have a glint of an organization or chapter.
Would someone with some expert authority like to explain this conflict to me and others so we are brought up to date and are on the same page.
[ November 18, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
posted
It's really quite simple, Dave: If a number of Letterheads in Colorado wish to form an organization, collect dues, have a treasury and officers or whatever, that's their business. If you want to do this in Illinois, go for it. Whether anyone else wishes to join you is up to them; given the way you have dealt with other things you have attempted to organize (the "Songpainter" guilt-fest springs to mind), I wouldn't hold my breath. But then that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Well everyone, I guess it's time to finally let Dave in on it too.
Would the present secretary please send Dave his certificate of membership so he can hang it on his wall and finally feel validated as a true Letterhead?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
yep,it is ALWAYS up to individuals to do what they wish to do when,how,and where they wish! DIXIE LETTERHEADS are from an "area" not a perticular State. I also find them friendlier,up close and personal types of meets. As oppossed to seminar,ridgid,converence center ones. The "letterhead movement" is a frame of mind and nothing else as I see it. Some may NEED to be aligned with one type of organization or other,for thier own Insecurity Labor Unions come to mind. Kind of like bragging on gratuating from one college or the other.ie...having a DEGREE to hang on your wall. Instead of letting the quality of your work do all the talking for you
This is just MY slant on the subject
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Its kinda odd you take it upon yourself to take the focus off of Kent's Post and his true meaning of his post to "spur" your own agenda.
Lets just save this crap for another life and take the energy you took to start this thread and right out a check for the sign museum.
Dont turn this into such a circus act that the meaning behind Kents post gets lost and letterheads of his caliber refrain from posting at all because of useless drivel like this.
"Some people's kids"
[ November 18, 2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It occurs to me that this is another one of those threads that's going to get a long list of pro or con responses. What I'd rather see is this: Everyone who posts a response on this thread, send a minimum of $20 to the Sign Museum, so they than pay the ransom on Glawson's Rawson and Evans collection before it ends up scattered or trashed. That way at least SOMETHING good will have come out of this thread.
BTW: My check was mailed yesterday.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I want my membership card, I want my membership card.....protection from what Dave? What benefits?
Could someone print up a ID card for Dave, make him a Letterhead HMO insurance card while your at it. Don't forget his drivers license for the streets of Letterville in case officer Jones should pull him over on his way to the chamber of commerce meeting. I think that should about cover it.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I think what's confusing to you, Dave, is your interpretation of "organization". There are national sign organizations you can join if this is what your after. Illinois has one. Mark Mocilan of Prairie Signs was president a few years back. I think there are group insurance benefits and advertising benefits through that group as well as dues and memberships. I have never been a member.
In Illinois we gathered together as a group as the Central Illinois Letterheads for the purpose of putting on the '91 International meet in Bloomington, Illinois. We loosely organized and had a bank account for the purpose of having that meet. The small amount of money left over from the meet was absorbed by the bank from non-use of the account. At the time we couldn't get very many shops interested in even getting together let alone organize, and of the several shops in the Bloomington-Normal area there were only 2 that even showed up at that '91 International meet. That was embarassing, I thought. You did not attend as I recall for whatever reason. We again invited area shops to take part in the Atlanta meet this past summer. There was only 3 businesses left from the original group, but we did loosely organize or work together in behalf of the meet.
If you can't even get together to sit down and have a small area meet, gathering or whatever then there is no sense in organizing. That's really fine with me as I'm not real interested in orgainizing beyond what would be necessary to have a letterhead or walldog meet. Since you seem to be enamored with the idea of orgainizing, whose to say you can't do that. This are Amerika my friend--do as you must. Put aside this notion that there should be some kind of protocol here. It sounds like you're itchin' for somethin', but what is it? Don't let matters put you into a tailspin. Let people know what your real intentions are so they can evaluate them. And if you want to make some kind of an orgainization out of something, that's your God-given right. Go for it!
I like things they way they've been. Each meet has a character and life of its own. That has managed to keep everything fresh. There has to be some sort of organization to accomplish anything in life. I think by nature, letterheads are independent minded and they can only be organized loosely. If you start to shove rules and procedures down there throats they're going to take off running. When Jane and I take our vacations we try to wing it instead of planning everything out. It's always helped us keep everything more spontaneous. It works for us because that's our nature. I wouldn't expect it to work for everybody. Diversity, baby, it's the spice of life.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Dave Draper: Would someone with some expert authority like to explain this conflict to me and others so we are brought up to date and are on the same page.
I would try to add something to this but I cant due to the fact that I am no expert just a loooooser. Sorry
-------------------- Ryan Young Indocil Art & Design indocil@comporium.net 803-980-6765
I highjacked Letterville!! Winter Muster 2004 Posts: 904 | From: Rock Hill, SC | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
just had to refresh my memory where Ryan got that nick... so, for anyone who missed it. (kind puts Ryans Loooser comments back in perspective )
quote:Originally posted by Dave Draper: ...And I'm glad I took the time to learn to pinstripe AFTER I learned to hand letter so I'm not in the boat you pinheads are, not being able to letter...what's with that? Use the dam plotter to make your letters reverse weed and air brush them for heaven's sake. If you don't have a plotter, Your next door neighbor probably does, so get a stencil from them! You act like your forgot how to use your brains!
quote:Originally posted by Ryan E Young: (To Dave)
What an arrogant statement!
quote:Originally posted by Dave Draper: qoute------ :rolleyes:Im sorry i am going to pass on this one for the sole reason that I am to busy at the shop but i do think it is a mistake to forget that their are a lot of pinheads on this board. ---Ryan Young
like the person who registered the Domain.. keepersofthecraft.com and seems to be starting his own little club..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Robert Beverly... I knew it was your site as soon as I saw "Treatise" (complete with the definition, I might add) ...ah yes, a day of fond letterville memories. I guess I've griped about spelling already today, I might as well encourage you to spell "unveil" correctly on your home page, since spelling is part of the craft
posted
me & 10 min in PRINT ARTIST!!!!!! now you is certifided!!!
[ November 18, 2003, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
yeah & that old english should be all caps! while you're at it, if it's going to be on an arc & in all caps, might as well be italic too! maybe you could squeeze in some more art, dontcha got any more clipart in them thar print artist?
I asked a legitimate question, nothing more, nothing less, and I get kicked in the ass by fellow Letterville Residents, no less.
Maybe I just missunderstood that the fund was coming out of something other than a Letterhead meet organization fund.
I respect your right to like or dislike anyone on this board. You could e-mail me and jump my ass, but some of you enjoy doing it here, don't even contribute to the topic, and bring up old issues that have nothing to do this topic. What's with that? This is just viciousness and unprofessionalism. Don't you think others looking in on are a bit taking back by your attitudes? Gheeeesh!
I was hoping we all could just add to the thread's intent and its content without assigning some alterior motive or trouble you think is being stirred up. OF WHICH I HAD NO INTENTION.
------------ Doug, do you have files on everyone and everything they have ever said, just waiting to use those quotes against who you don't like here in Letterville? I guess thats one way to lose "friends" quickly.
-----------------------------------
The original post was intended to clarify some misconceptions I have and probably others have as well. Kent's post about contributions to the American Sign Museum is a great subject and a worthy cause. That is why I started a new thread to understand and clarify some issues, and keep this a separate issue.
Kent is way to cool and I support his challenge to make a contribution to the American Sign Museum.
---------------------
Well, Just forget I asked the question, I don't need a clarification. I'm soured on the fact I even asked the question in the first place.
There is a mean-spiriteded cloud that hangs over a what use to be good "Letterheads" on this board. Its a shame. Its extremely hard for people to share ideas when they see how others get treated.
If I had asked this same question at a Letterhead meet, it would have made for a good friendly chat amongst us "Brothers of the Brush."
I'm not coming back to this thread, and I know Doug will have every sentence catagorized to pounce on me (and you) in any future post you or I make...I'm not looking forward to that continue treament, Doug. You win.
posted
Dave, Ryan has alluded to that "Loooser" comment many many times... I had all but forgotten it but, I guess he hasn't. Post anything I ever said... & I'll stand under it and take the heat.
posted
Perhaps if this were the first time this question were asked instead of being the well over-beaten horse that it is you'd have different responses.
Perhaps it's because the past heated discussions (plural) you referred to were over organizing the entire Letterhead Movement and forcing people to join an organized association using the Letterhead term or quit calling themselves Letterheads and were focused on rating members, membership certificates to hang on the wall & show off to impress customers and "member benefits" such as health insurance, etc., with little or no mention of such unimportant aspects of advancing the craft, sharpening skills, learning & sharing knowledge.
Perhaps posting on this thread should be limited to those who don't remember the numerous past discussions on the exact same topic. Or we could expand that farther to limiting posting on any thread to those who can't remember what someone posted yesterday and see that they're contradicting themselves today.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
It's a legitimate question that has been debated before. As far as I am concerned it's a dead issue.
Back in the early 80's, some were interested in seeing Letterheads become a formal organization with "Chapters Coast To Coast." After a discussion in Kansas City and a followup by ST Magazine, Letterheads expressed an overwhelming desire to remain an non organization.
A few years back the Denver Letterheads hosted a very successful meet and actually ended up with a profit. It's my understanding that a more formal organization was setup for the Denver group at that time. I also understand the name was registerd at that time, but this is all second hand info. I'm sure Mike Jackson or Kent Smith will fill us in more.
Just because someone asks a question is no reason to ridicule him. Like any town, Letterville has it's fair share of hypocrites. If anyone but Dave had asked this question, they probally would have got a civil answer. For some reason, many of you have decided it's open season on Draper.
I like Dave Draper. Over the years, we have had an opportunity to spend some quality time with Dave and his family. Yes! Dave does put his foot in his mouth from time to time, but he's always here sticking his neck out. There are a pile of respected Letterheads that never join in here until they have a need to use it's voice to push a meet or some other agenda.
The Song Painter CD thing really ticks me off. Dave and Joe Rees invested a bunch of time and money to produce that CD. The proceeds were never intended to grace their own pockets. They only wanted to showoff their musical talants and everyone was invited to get involved. Instead of a pat on the back, they got ridiculed for their efforts. That sucks!
The Dave Draper I know is a winner. He has somehow managed to raise a big family and put them through college. He's a huge success as a Husband and Father. Can all of us say the same?
Dave struggles with the sign business. He needs to make a profit to support his family. That may not be a problem for those that love to look down their noses at those of us who struggle, but I know Dave is not alone. There are many times I read this BB and think of that old song "Harper Valley PTA." We all love to point our fingers and ridicule others. Big question is " Are you ready to have YOUR life put under the microscope?
[ November 18, 2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
I think some of these post take this way to personal, I might be in the minority here, but I think as a movement the "Letterheads" will only continue if the spirit of sharing continues, notice the spirit of the posts? I think if the medium of hand painted, hand crafted signs wants to see a resurgance as a viable business, than organizing would be a good idea, but not under the "Letterhead" umbrella or theology (whatever most of you percieve it to be) I belong to 4 organizations, only 2 related to signage, not because I need to belong, but for business, and being involved in my craft, and learning more about it. Too many times sign companies take work on that many of you could to a subcontract as a specialty, if organized correctly and presented to various companies and organizations, it could benifit the business's involved in this movement by utilizing old world sign techniques most here posses. Most here agree that the Letterhead movement needs no promoting here, but on the outside, it does. I am sure most high end sign painters already sub thier work, and are doing high end work, organizing smaller specialty shops will help spread talents out, keep the techniques alive, and create a demand on the outside. By the way, I read a comment like Dave getting flamed about needing a certificate and wanting to belong, never realizing the hippocrasy, since by your association here, seperates you, take it easy with each other, this isn't the Letterhead spirit at all, and if this is where it's headed, then who will want to go to a meet with such bad attitudes. Keep the spirit alive. I'm getting of my box now.....
Rick
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
BTW, with 21 responses so far, in what appears to have become a public flogging, may we assume that the Sign Museum will receive at least $420 towards the Rawson & Evans Collection?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Are these replies to a legitimate question from professional people? I read Dave’s post before anyone responded to it and I thought it was an interesting question. Now I check back to see what the replies are and all I see is hurt. If you have to vent here, attack the question, not the person. Letterhead community Keepers of our craft Sisters and brothers of the brush
I know I don’t fit right in with the in crowd here, get to this site often or post here much, so I will probably receive some of the same. So be it...
-------------------- John Weber 3863 Buckskin Rd. NE Carlos, MN 56319 800-853-7051
posted
I read this post yesterday when there were 5 replies or so and thought..."Here we go again!"
I remember in 96 or 97 when Dave Draper found the old original BB, and the rush he got from that, his enthusiasm and loads and loads of posts, that followed each day when you logged on it was Dave Draper blah..blah.
I have never met Dave but know that he is really enthusiastic, and dedicated to his work as a signmaker, and tries to share that in his way, and you can read that through his posts. If someone voices an opinion in a naive or enthusiastic fashion thats not an excuse to jump all over them.
I think that Dave has always meant well, even if at times it comes across a little clumsily, I know too, from the past that he is proud of what he has achieved and his family, as Steve says.
Dave hasn't responded much before to the hammering he's got in other posts, I'm glad he has now.
This doesn't encourage new people to want to post for fear of being "publicly flogged" by those that have a better command of written English or those that just think they know better.
I don't suppose that if half of you met each other face to face you would waste time on such.
This has been for me the one place on the net that you can really communicate with "likeminded" people whatever your niche is and whatever your skill or level of achievement is...why spoil that by ripping each other apart???
posted
Since I was one of the people with a wise ass remark for Dave I will respond. First off I have had the experience of meeting Dave. He and I had a go around on this BB back three years ago when I first happened upon this place. It was not a friendly go around. When I went to the international meet in Milwaukee I made a point to walk up to Dave and introduce myself. Don't know if he will remember me though. I don't hide behind this keyboard as many would think. When it comes to this subject of organizing, Dave has beat this to death on other occasions. I believe this is why people have given the response they have. I don't dought that some people worked very hard on Songpainter but many felt that it was being shoved down our throat for a good long time. I'm sorry it didn't take off better than it did. But I think most of us have had things in our lives that just didn't pan out as we had expected. If Dave thinks it is such a good idea to organize then spearhead this thing and see where it ends up. He may surprise all of us. As for the rest who want to judge me or others for our comments, know the history behind the story first.
-------------------- Rob Larkham Sign Techniques Inc. Chicopee, Ma Posts: 607 | From: Chester, Ma. | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I wasnt going to reply as not to add to anymore negativity but this is what I knew this post was going to turn into, As Steve has said this is a dead issue.
As far as I'm concerned this matter never should have made the BB. I've never talked to Kent but I hear he's a real nice guy, a simple phone call should have answered Dave's "question" without all this comotion.
And as I predicted this post has taken the focus off of Kents original post.
I would challenge everyone who posted to follow Cam's above post and send at least 20 bucks to the sign museum, there are bigger isues here that need the attention.
Dave, I do not appologize for what I said, but the manner in which I did it. I will take your advise and next time I will deal directly with the individual privately.
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
First of all, I think some of the responses here went over the top in being insulting. As anyone who reads this board knows, I'm not a fan of Dave Draper, but on the other hand my comment about a "public flogging" was an observation, more than anything. As Bob Rochon said, not only has this question been debated here before, but Dave's posting about it again takes attention away from Kent Smith's post regarding the collection of money for the Rawson and Evans collection.
And as much as I defend Steve Shortreed in his right to run this board as he sees fit, I have to question the way this was handled. Steve knows the mood of this board as well as anyone. I fully expected the thread to be locked long before it got as nasty as we all knew it would, instead we have an angry defense of Dave, yet the thread remains open. I start to wonder about the agenda of any forum moderator who decries a lack of civility, but does not use - or consistently defend the use - of his authority to stop it from happening. If you don't like the tone of a thread, sir, then lock it - but please don't presume to lecture us in defense of Dave Draper. Again, this is my personal opinion, for what it's worth.
What I'd rather see is a positive effort towards the Sign Museum fund. Debates on the relative qualities Dave Draper and his motives, have become a waste of time.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dave rubs some people the wrong way. He doesn't have the monopoly on this...I should know . It isn't like he's a newbie and this response was totally uncalled for.
Dave:
If you don't like this sort of response, you have a couple of options...
Ignore it
Think about how you might have brought it on yourself...and how you might be able to change that.
Crying "victim!" is just lame...and probably adds fuel to the fire.
[ November 19, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I will make a public apology here, because I think in my case an apology is in order. Dave, I can empathize with how you might feel. I think the tone of many posts here was sarcasm, & yes, it became insulting.
I think you are an "honorable" letterhead, & my first offense in this thread was to insinuate otherwise. I had felt your inquiry was not so much "hey, lets talk organization again", but more "I get excommunicated... how come Kent gets to organize?" ...but weather or not that was true, I can see my sarcasm was hurtful, & I would like to back down & admit I was wrong to jump in the fray.
After your comment about getting kicked in the ass by fellow letterheads, the only name that was included was mine. twice. I guess my second offense was quoting your old business with Ryan. Maybe he already knows if you regret those remarks, & maybe I missed it if you retracted them publicaly. It's not my business if you did or did not, & I shouldn't have made it my business.
(Jon, I'm sure you could have found a better Jon-Aston-flogging link if you just researched a little )
I'm a bear for punishment...thinking maybe that I should compile an anthology. Do you want to write the "Foreward" for me?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Loooser boy is no more! Look here Dave. I am sorry you get jumped on every time you post something but you and I know why. You let your internet muscles get you in trouble. I once said you made an arrogant statement but never said any thing about you as a person or your character but you on the other hand called me a looooser. that to me is a personal attack and I said that every time from here on that I see you post I would give you a hard time. It ****ed me off so bad. I have even called you on my dime to help you with a paint problem in the past. Do you even remember that? No one sees that, they only see me make little jabs at you. A lot of people have said would you say these things to Dave at a live meet. Probably not because after you called me a loser at a live meet I would have punched you square in your pie hole!
That's it its over! You have never apologized and that's fine I am going to stop making my loooooser comments and forget this grudge. I hope you will learn from some of this that some people never forget rude comments and you will pay for it somewhere. I am sure you are a nice guy to some but you have made a lot of people on this board really dislike you. I am sorry to all my fellow letterheads for being part of the Dave bashing. I hope you all know I care about all of my letterville friends and do not want to be considered a pain or an asshole. I just wanted to clear up why I have acted the way I have to Dave and hope you don't see me in a bad light for it.
It is over. No more jabs or negative comments directed at you Dave.
PS I don't know how to change my chat name from loooser boy so please look over that if you see me on chat.
-------------------- Ryan Young Indocil Art & Design indocil@comporium.net 803-980-6765
I highjacked Letterville!! Winter Muster 2004 Posts: 904 | From: Rock Hill, SC | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
The BB program allow us to automatically ban certain words. I have what I consider the Big 4 entered and hope I never have to add more. Don't test it!
We're all adults here in Letterville. We're also business people. Many of us are parents. I'm no prude, but I would like to think my kids and grandkids could read this BB.
The same goes for chat. It can get pretty wild in there at times. Over the years, many of us have become regulars. We know and respect each others expectations regarding behavior. With so many new Letterheads joining in Letterville Chat these days it is imperative that we recognize who is on channel and conduct ourselves properly. That includes yours truely.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
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