posted
Hello everyone. I've been lurking around on this site for about two years now and have learned quite a bit. Now I'm really in need of some help.
I have been working in the shop I'm at now for almost 10 years. The shop was started by two brothers back in the sixties and has had a pretty good run over the years. It actually runs as two shops...the one they are at all day and the one I run with the help of two employees.
I do everything at the shop from the accounting work, scheduling, purchasing...everything except paying the bills but since I do the books for the shop I know exactly how much they are.
For the last year or so it has seemed to me that the owners of the shop are mailing it in. One of them I respect a lot. He has no talent in the business but is a really nice guy, who believes in me and my talent. The other has talent...and an amazing ability to spend 8 hours putting up a 4' x 8' sign. Neither of them seems to be adding anything to the business anymore and keeps telling me how sales are down and we are going broke. The sales at "their" shop are down 80% because of attitude and lack of customer service. Sales at "my" shop are up 28% over last year.
Well, I'm sick of it. I know I can get sales at "my" shop up another 50%. My clients have mentioned to me countless times that I needed to open my own place, make my own money, and bust my ass for myself and not the dweeb brothers.
How should I approach them about buying out the shop I'm in? How should it even be valued? I am fairly certain that without me the shop will close, in turn closing their shop. That means I'm the most valuable asset they've got...and I'm not buying myself. I need the client base that I built while working for them to start my own shop...but that seems like stealing to me. I want to do this professionally if possible, and I want the location "my" shop is in. They don't want to sell according to one of the other employees, and have told him that he needs to learn everything about the shop so they don't have to worry about me quitting and "taking" their business away from them.
I do have a little over a years salary in savings right now so I can live lean for a while and be okay.
Any suggestions?
-------------------- Chris Porter (Coming Soon) Colorado Posts: 4 | From: Colorado | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Whooo- a tough one! I'm not going to be much technical help here except to ask you: "What do YOU think will be the best answer to your own question?" Only you can make that decision for yourself. Gut feelings can be believed. You seem to have decided that you'd rather be independent from the Bros & their shop/s & they don't want to sell anyway. You have 3 options- stick with them (& maybe build things up), pull out and head off on your own way, or pull out, head off & come back and make an offer to buy them out after/as/if they go bust 9 months later. The next aspect is can you do all the work you think you'll be expected to do, or how fast can you learn, or can you find someone you trust to sub-out harder orders in the early stages of independence? Good luck & have faith!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
I would be straight up with the brothers! Give them 2 choices: 1. Sell the shop to ya at a reasonable price. 2. You will open your own shop, and therfore be competing with them.
A reasonable price is usually a year's profits.
You and they both know most of your customers will follow you to your shop. Also be prepared to be fired on the spot when ya give them your proposal! Have a bank loan to either buy the shop, or start your own, all set up BEFORE approaching them!!!!!
Good luck, whatever way it goes!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Basicly you are going to get the lion's share of the customers from what you say.
Take the cost factors into consideration .. A. Buying their shop at a reasonable price. maximum of one year's PROFIT as Si suggested B. What it would cost you to set up in a new location, lease, equipment, stock of substrates advertise to the customers you are now an independant business etc and at least enough finance to cover one months turnover. If "A' is slightly higher than "B' it may be worth for the lack of hassle.
Put the facts and figures to the bank, especially the projected income figures for both options ... best and worst figures liable to occur in the first six months. Mention your current turnover figures and the fact you say you could increase these dramaticly.
THEN, as Si says, lay it on the line to the brothers
"A" probably won't happen because they are relying on the profits from your shop to survive. That's also the reason you are being underpaid.
posted
This one hits real close to home for me. I had an ex-employee hijack my business. Stole piles of my clients,why not..he knew who they were and my pricing. What the hell, the files were in the computers. Not too hard to price cut when you know the bottom line. Now he runs a shop right down the road from me. Class guy! I guess I`m seeing this from the other side. Are you underpaid, overworked ,or otherwise being mistreated? Looks to me like you think you`re entitled to their business. You`re not, it belongs to them. The way I see this, the customers and the jobs belong to the brothers.. not you. You are their employee. Take the high road, offer to buy them out or take the plunge and go out and start your own business.
-------------------- Bob & Marcia Peach Peach Signs Inc Sandwich, MA rpeach9828@aol.com Posts: 1020 | From: Sandwich, MA | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Whatever you do, don't let them read your comments here about them.
Are the two guys who started the biz the same two running it now? If so, they must know something and can't be as completely clueless as you state. Unless, you have been carrying them for all this time.
I think with the way you feel it is time to test your self and make the plunge. I wouldn't bother trying to buy theirs, but start fresh on your own.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
This hit's home to me as well, but in a different way. I worked for a sign guy, he had a 4b. I basically did everything, from books to signs,etc. EVERYTHING!! Unfortunately, his wife passed away, I felt so bad for him. But he never even botheered to come in the shop, If i needed him, I had to stop by his house. 99% of the time he was drunk. I started bouncing checks out of the business account, because he would come in during the night, and write a check for him and be gone. I went this this for a 1 1/2 years. It was very frustrating. On day, I had enough, went to his house, handed him the keys...he was shocked. 1. If I left, the biz was done or 2. he could sell it too me. After about a week between bottles, he decided he better sell...which he did. Once I took out all the accounts that he owed money too, It didnt work out to be much. I think all new business that start out, have been working for someone, so give them the keys, and see what happens. I started with a 4b, now I have a 24" and a edge, so work slow, and you'll get there...
-------------------- Becky Olson The Sign Says 342 Kelley St. Manchester, NH 03102 603-622-6722 thesignsays@aol.com Posts: 6 | From: Manchester, NH | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
All has been pretty well covered here...except...if you offer to buy them out and they refuse... you and they both know at that point that you are no longer under any obligation (actual or implied).
Chances are however... if they wish to sell, it will be far and above what you wish to pay (or what would be common sense to pay)...but at least you have made the proper ethical move.
Time then to make your own move...be very careful not to take any records with you ...you'll have a tough time getting started with a law suit hanging over your head.
Once you leave ...you are free to contact anyone you wish to...oddly enough you'll be too busy working to contact vary many and you'll build your business just like everyone else has "One customer at a time"
Good luck tho ...it sounds like you are on the right track...especially if they are telling another employee they need to learn your job...I'd say you're about to come up short in the near future anyway.
Good lucck!
[ November 06, 2003, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
I'm in kind of the same situation here. I'd love to open my own shop but I'm not gonna go into competition with the people I work for. I have a lot of respect for the owner and maybe one of these days I'll figure out a way to go fully digital and work with him instead of in competition.
[ November 06, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Patrick Whatley ]
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Start tapering off and tell them you are going to start to work part (like 1/2) time. Print your own business cards, hand 'em out and start "snapping" for YOUR OWN clients. Do NOT attempt to steal any of theirs. After awhile you (and they) will see how things shake out. Then, if they really are having a bad go at it, ask them if they are interested in selling out or "farming out" work to you. Tell them and show them how much you respect them. You will probably need their help in the future, so why make enemies?
posted
As a sign shop owner, I have mixed feelings. The class thing to do is to attempt a buy-out first. Then, if they decline, you can pretty much do whatever you want.
First, buy the book "The E Myth Revisited" by Michael Gerber. It talks about employees starting out on their own in a simular business as what they worked for. The challenges you will face and the hurdles you must jump. Are you focused? Determined? Is your wife supportive? How about insurances? ...just some stray thoughts.
[ November 07, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3486 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I think if I was the business owner I would be happy for you that you now feel like you can improve your situation in life and start YOUR own business. From what you said the brothers still want to protect their business and keep it and unless they have been making statements about possibly selling, I do not think you should try pushing them to sell to you or else! I think if you are really ready to start you own business then you should start fresh and maybe across town if possible or provide a service they are not. Use your vision and energy to create your own success do not steal from them even if it is way too easy the last thing you need is for them to be calling you a theft. In the end they cannot truly blame you if you are fair, treat them, as you would like to be treated. Remember they hired you and trained you for 10 years you should owe them some loyalty. Also offer to finish training the other employee before you leave give written notice 30 days minimum or more if required. This was not a weekend job this has been your career for the past 10 years as you said, you must have a good relationship with the brothers by now.
Also do you really want to try and come up with a fair price for they old equipment and stock etc. Problem with buying old equipment from the old owners is they still remember that the old plotter cost them an arm and a leg, now you can buy twice the plotter new for just an arm. Start small and stay out of debt if possible and go out and get your own customers and his old customers that come to you will not look as if you targeted them.
Now hopefully you live in a town/city that can handle one more sign shop. Good Luck
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I see this is your first post ... Welcome Aboard!
You bring up an interesting subject. On one hand some owners feel resentful towards former employees who strike out on their own and end up as competition, on the other hand if the employees are fairly compensated for their work & responsibility perhaps they would not need to strike out on their own.
My view, and I can only speak for myself is this; I'm 44 and own a 6 employee shop which has been fairly successful; we own our building, are in reasonably good financial shape and have a really well equipped shop with state of the art equipment. I hope to 'semi-retire' in 11 years or so, the reality is that if I sell the shop outright, I will get only the value of the building and a pittance of the value of the equipment & inventories. It is unlikely that my Son or Daughter will want to enter the family business or even remain in this (remote) area. My best hope is to sell the business to a key employee who is truly capable of running the business even though I would probably have to finance most of the transaction. Unfortunately at this time I have no employee who is capable or inclined to complete this roll and it is one of my priorities right now to find, recruit and train the right person with an eye towards management and eventual ownership.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
ok...from a different point of view....i have never worked in a sign shop, or a vinyl only one either. i have been doing this since i was 10-12 yrs old. not till i was 42 and feed up with "JOBS" and always working for somebody who was dumber then me, or the "little rich kid" who had family money to send him out on his own business venture and "use" other people to make HIM MONEY. i just decided to start doing signs full time....1986. computer was just coming in, but the brush and talent was still the main way to make signs. so it wasnt to hard to get started. now with a vinyl shop on every street corner....the brush(and talent) has taken a back seat to FAST, CHEEEP & UGLY!!! (my opinion) its either PRICE OR SPEED most people expect from a sign shop. now if you are "the one carrying the load" and the bros are just doing this because they can....you need to just get set up on your own....buy a plotter, get a laptop and your all set....now you can work outa your garage, basement, or rent a space in the local ADD-A-CLOSET. you will take their clients with you...if you have a repore with them... as for buyin the other shop..why...if you "da man" they will call you and either offer you moe money to stay/come back or will offer you their "pig in a poke" business that neither one can run...and is now a "liability rather then an asset"!!!!! either way you will take charge of the situation of what you will be doing with your life...not dependant on a couple of doo doos with money.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Way to go, Joe. You as usual have managed to analyze and comment on a situation based on two factors: A) Only one side of the story, and B) Your own prejudice regarding anyone with "money", which apparently includes anyone who has more than you. Of course, that would never occur to you by yourself (but then that's what I'm here for, isn't it?
We've all heard you complain how tough it was working for other people who weren't as bright or hardworking or deserving as you. Hmm. Must be why you're doing so great now that you've got those exploitative employers off your back, right?
So these "doo-doo" brothers have made money off Chris? What the f*ck did they hire him for, to do him a favor? You get all indignant about people being "used"... but in an employer-employee relationship, who gets used? The employer provides the workplace, the business, the tools, and the salary. The employee provides the labor and gets paid for his services, without having to invest(spelled RISK) the capital, time and effort to build a business. An employee gets a paycheck every week, goes home at five o'clock, and doesn't lose sleep over whether the bills get paid or the work is done on time or to spec, or that customers are satisfied.
And if an employer is lucky, he gets an employee with whom there is mutual respect, who sees the relationship as a win-win situation. If he's lucky. More often he's going to get employees who think someone owes them a job, or that they're smarter than their boss (which is irrelevant for the most part) or that think they are indispensable, or being "used", or are irresponsible with the employer's time, or tools, or whatever.
Maybe Chris's employers are schmucks - plenty of them are. Or maybe he's just another clown who thinks he knows it all. The proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is when he goes on his own, if he can manage a business well enough to stick around in a competitive market for forty years or more, like his supposedly useless employers have done, or whether he's going to fail within three years like the majority of new businesses. But none of US know enough, from Chris's post, to judge the competence of Chris's emplyers or whether or not his compaints are justified, no matter what their own past experiences may have been.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
First, this is painfully long, and I apologize, I made it as short as I could while still telling everything I needed to get my point across. Thanks for the advice I've been given so far.
____________________________________
Okay, maybe this post ruffled a few feathers because I did not explain everything out fully. I left a lot out on the off chance that one of the two got wind of what I was thinking before I had all my ducks in a row and I have a lot of questions to answer for myself before I'd like to present that.
I have a graduate degree in Graphic Design and still do freelance work for two large advertising agencies in town. I worked in an advertising agency for two years after school and took a part-time job in a sign shop to help pay off student loans. While working in the sign shop I came to the realization that six years of school had not taught me squat about making a good sign layout. The old fart I worked for was a crotchety old pain in the ass. He gave me Mike Stevens layout book and told me I needed to start learning about reality. I listened to him bitch, moan, and complain about everything I did for months unitl things started to click in my head and I figured out what he was trying to teach me. That pain in the ass was the greatest teacher I ever had. He's also like a father to me. He still talks to me like I'm an idiot whenever I see him, but I can see now the love involved in that. He retired ten years ago...and we still talk every couple of days.
When he retired and I was left just working at the ad agency I realized how much I hated it. I loved painting, I loved carving, I loved the whole process of taking a customers little idea and figuring out all the steps needed to make something better than they hoped for. So I went to work for the brothers and for a while all was well. We all worked good together and I believed in the company. I convinced them to push for bigger and better sign work. Do bigger jobs so you could do fewer jobs for more money and it was working. My paychecks grew as I improved the bottom line and I was perfectly content.
Things started going south September 11, 2001. Business slowed down to the point we would have been better off closing the doors until January. Money got tight and they got scared. Once business began picking up they started refusing jobs. The first was a complete resigning of an entire hospital. It would have been a $15,000 job. It was bid, we were awarded the bid, then they backed out because they did not want to put up the material costs up front. Then a banner order for our biggest client...500 3' x 10' banners that we were going to sub out. The two idiot brothers got mad that the printers would not waive teh shipping charge (which was in the quote) and just cancelled the entire order. We've never gotten that client back. I could list another twenty jobs in the last six months that they've bitched about and cancelled AFTER I'd sold them. If it's not coroplas and vinyl they don't seem interested anymore. Since sales are down because they keep turning these jobs down my payceck is down about 40%. They've lost all of thier biggest clients and seem to not give a crap about the ones here either. I stil have a relationship with most of them and those customers are the one's who want me to go out on my own so they can use me again.
I have the skills. I consider my skills better than a lot of what I see on this board (but far below a lot of it as well) and I'm convinced that skill level is not going to be an issue. Running a business won't be either because I've been doing it for them for years. Quality wise I really don't care if I ever see another roll of vinyl again. Vinyl is such a cheap way out. There are so many more fun, and effective options that I'd rather do and I'm not allowed to do now.
And no, they are not the one's staying up late worrying about the business. They both leave at 2:30 every day. I'm the one staying until 6 or 7 keeping the books, ordering the materials, selling the jobs and figuring out how to control the cash flow. I am an employee, I know this. I know I was hired to make THEM money. I expect them to make money off of me and they do. What has caused this desire to start my own shop is that there is no longer a partnership between me and them. I've tried for a year to get it back and it keeps getting worse. I even offered to lease a table router in my name, with my money, and only make them pay for it if I made a profit with it every month. Their quote was "We don't need to get into anything like that. Two other shops already have them." That's brilliant, God forbid should there be competition. So I offered to lease it, keep it at home, and let them sub the work out to me. No dice, see the previous quote. I know, nobody believes it but THEY KEEP TURNING DOWN WORK THAT IS ALREADY SOLD, even if I offer to pay for the materials up front. No risk to them at all and they are not interested. My paycheck depends on sales and they won't allow me to make more. Yeah, that's building employee loyalty.
I'm leaving because I am owed something. I am owed and explination of what the problem is that I'm supposed to fix. I'm owed the opportunity to make a decent living. I'm owed a chance to be part of the solution to a problem I have not created. I'm leaving because I'm frustrated that the more I try to take all of the risk out of building the business for them the more they seem to beat me down. I don't even want to be a partner in the business, I'm was willing to make a financial investment at my own risk simply because I can see how it will make me (and them) more money in the long run. They are not interested. I could go work for one of the two big shops in town tomorrow if I wanted to but I figure I'd be better served on my own, doing the work that makes me happy, and facing the highs and lows knowing that I will make it or fail because of me...and me alone...and not because of someone else's fears.
So that's it, that's the rest of the story. Thanks to anyone who actually read this novel. Hopefully you can see my side a little better, I only wish I could see theirs.
-------------------- Chris Porter (Coming Soon) Colorado Posts: 4 | From: Colorado | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Great story Chris! I think you are going to do just fine whatever you do. I think you will know best & bouncing ideas off us here, has quite likely helped you articulate for yourself exactly where you stand & how you feel about it.
You appear to be on a sinking ship. As a strong swimmer you are probably best off taking that leap of faith sooner rather then later. No point in risking getting sucked down any further. Those lost clients may see you as a savior, but it could also tarnish your reputation to be a part of that situation much longer. I don't see the brothers ever sharing what they have & if you got the goods, you will do fine without their clients anyway.
posted
without you cam...my posts would be boring!!!! like i said i was going on different tack here. apperntly you missed that. i said i never worked for sign shop, so my experiance with dumber then me employers.....was owners, managers, of companies not sign related!!!!!!! now you cant tell me, if you ever did any other work then what you do now...that you have never experianced the same people i have...and from what i know of you, and some of your posts about the customers you deal with, most are really dumber then you!!! so dont come off all high and mighty in defense of EMPLOYERS!!! the sign shop of today is not the old guy teaching the young guy...ITS, I GOT MONEY TO OPEN A SIGN SHOP, and ill pay you $5 an hour to crank out signs!!! bottom line!!!! i see em all the time and have meet these new owners....who have tried to employee me....as their "meal ticket." this is where i get my distain for people who use people. iam not saying that all employers are this way....ive worked for couple people i woulda worked there for free....because of them being who they where. also if this shop is going down the tubes...and this guy wants to buy it, by doing as i said....this makes the buyer the one "in control" of the price he will pay for this business that is dying, rather then the seller having the power to dictate the price....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Thanks Doug...and you're right. Actually writing that down got me thinking a lot. I took this afternoon off and have a list of jobs and customers we've lost and the figure is incredible.
But actually I'm getting more from the people who are against the idea. Critical comments do a great job of pointing out those unseen loopholes (like the yellow pages ad I'd forgotten to figure in to monthly costs).
Thanks for the help everyone. I'm gonna go do some more thinking.
-------------------- Chris Porter (Coming Soon) Colorado Posts: 4 | From: Colorado | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Chris, do a search here on yellow page ads. You'll see the majority are against them. They're expensive and most often just bring in price shoppers. If you set up a business phone line, you'll get a free listing in the yellow pages. Before signing on for an expensive ad, consider taking that money and put a few strategically placed ads in newspapers "grand opening" type stuff.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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dude...tell them tomorrow you are done and be on your way! you don't need them...your novel shows that(assuming its all fact) buy yourself what you need to be ready to roll...you've been doing it all anyway...f&*k them..they've had their chance and they pi$$ed it away. don't look back...tell them it's nothing personal..it's business. i would never in a million years employ someone that knows more about the business than me and expect to sit back and take it easy...i know it happens all the time...eventually those lazy dickwads get what they deserve...people who put them out of business! good luck and looking forward to seeing your stuff.
[ November 11, 2003, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Chris, I'm glad you came back and explained things further. I have also seen businesses of all sorts become sclerotic, with owners no longer interested in them - though I usually see that with second and third generation family businesses.
As far as I see it, the clients they are driving away are up for grabs. What you CAN'T do, ethically, is bid against them for the same work, with the knowledge you have of their costs and production.
As for what they will think or say about you when you go, you have no control over that. All you have is your own integrity. If you serve clients they no longer want, that's not stealing, no matter what they say about it. You alone know who you are inside and what you are worth, and ultimately it is your judgement of yourself that matters.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
well...karen and i are the same page.....heheheheh
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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buy yourself what you need to be ready to roll...you've been doing it all anyway...f&*k them..they've had their chance and they pi$$ed it away. don't look back...tell them it's nothing personal..it's business. i would never in a million years employ someone that knows more about the business than me and expect to sit back and take it easy...i know it happens all the time...eventually those lazy dickwads get what they deserve...people who put them out of business! good luck and looking forward to seeing your stuff. 
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