[ July 03, 2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Rob McCauley ]
-------------------- Rob McCauley
Production Manager Archway Graphic Designs a Division of Sign Express, Inc. www.signexpress.tv Little Rock, Ar 501.224.0227 --- The most beautiful thing about a tree is what you do with it after you cut it down. ;-) Posts: 53 | From: Little Rock, Ar | Registered: Feb 2002
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WOW.. I wonder how much he had to pay for the Harley Merchandising Licenseing????.. You have to sell a lot of coasters to cover that $500,000 Down payment to Harley. Rocket Science at its Best.
posted
i wana be a fly on the wall...when the boys from HARLEY come in and hand him their bill!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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[ July 03, 2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Rob McCauley ]
-------------------- Rob McCauley
Production Manager Archway Graphic Designs a Division of Sign Express, Inc. www.signexpress.tv Little Rock, Ar 501.224.0227 --- The most beautiful thing about a tree is what you do with it after you cut it down. ;-) Posts: 53 | From: Little Rock, Ar | Registered: Feb 2002
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I'm not Michaelangelo, but that trailer hurts to look at!
-------------------- Mike Pulskamp Pulskamp Arts Sacramento, CA mpulskamp@earthlink.net Posts: 165 | From: Sacramento, CA | Registered: Dec 2002
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OOH! AAH! Great stuff! Can you do a how-to? By that I mean how you give this stuff away and keep the doors open?
Yeah. Right. Now who's going to be an angel and e-mail a link from that website to Harley-Davidson and the NFL?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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OMG... I just looked at that link again and saw the etched stuff and decals.
This guys got a death wish! ABC television, IBM, Anheiser-Busch, Pillsbury... and that's just the stuff I can readily make out from the pictures. Anyone who drops a dime on this place will get him closed in record time. And it's advertised as "Our Stuff".
I think we might have an arguement here for awarding this shop the "2003 Copywrite Infringement Award".
and better yet...
"PROGRESS THROUGH INNOVATION; QUALITY THROUGH TEAM WORK AND CONTINUOUS IMPROVEMENT; CUSTOMER SATISFACTION THROUGH PROMPT RESPONSE; AND ABOVE ALL, SUCCESS THROUGH LISTENING TO OUR CUSTOMERS."
Someone call this shmuck and tell him that shelling out a $hitload of cash on clip art is not REALLY improvement, prompt response is not prompt service, and that success is gained by SATISIFYING the customer, not just nodding to him.
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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Well on my motorcycle list we'd call that guy a Major DumbA$$. Nothing like advertising it. Is he the next candidate for a Darwin Award? Seems like that would be his next venture.
-------------------- Brian Diver PDQ Signs Everett, Wa
posted
People might think more about their own skills, or lack thereof......and improving on them, rather than running around worrying about what someone else is doing....!!
I'm really having a hard time figuring out what some of you people are all about.........!!
Rats.....Snitches.....Dime droppers......??
Oh Yeah.....We be the "Real Letterheads" !!
Scuse me while I go puke.......!!
.......cj
[ July 02, 2003, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: CJ Allan ]
-------------------- CJ Allan CJs Engraving 982 English Dr. Hazel, KY 42049
[ July 03, 2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Rob McCauley ]
-------------------- Rob McCauley
Production Manager Archway Graphic Designs a Division of Sign Express, Inc. www.signexpress.tv Little Rock, Ar 501.224.0227 --- The most beautiful thing about a tree is what you do with it after you cut it down. ;-) Posts: 53 | From: Little Rock, Ar | Registered: Feb 2002
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At the risk of starting a flamefest, think seriously about CJ’s comments. This person obviously needs some help with layout, spelling, pricing and, of course, copyright laws. If none of us felt we needed any assistance in this craft, we wouldn’t be at this site, although the reason would probably be more out of ignorance than the fact that we had somehow morphed into the world’s greatest signwriter, with no need for improvement.
The person running Anything Vinyl may be a decent, hard working individual who is just trying to support his family as the rest of us are. He may sincerely want to improve in the craft but has had no mentor and is going about it via the hard knocks approach. Inexperience may be the reason for the layout, spelling and pricing deficiencies, although it is hard to imagine someone not being aware of the fact that advertising unlicensed corporate logos over the internet is dabbling in financial Russian roulette, with only one empty chamber.
Perhaps a good course of action, in the true Letterhead spirit, would be to let him know there is a whole other world out there in sign design, techniques and knowledge. Inform him of this site (of course, after making sure this post has expired in some way) and invite him to a live meet.
I already had a good reputation in the sign business when I went to my first Letterheads meet at Mike Jackson’s in 1981, however, there, among that collection of talent, I felt lower than an ant gazing upon a mountain. I had to be talked into breaking out my portfolio. I felt the same way at Raymond Chapman’s shop in 1983, at Memphis, at the two meets I’ve been to in Denver, at Waco, Dallas and the rest. The blinders were off! My emotions reflected those of archaeologist Howard Carter when he was asked as he peered for the first time into King Tut’s tomb: “Do you see anything?” His answer was: “Yes! Wonderful things!”
Maybe Anything Vinyl needs to be kindly introduced to the wonderful things he can avail himself of. Until that happens, perhaps we should suspend harsh judgment.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5114 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'm already in enough hot water, so I won't go agreeing completely with CJ, but I admire him for standing alone.
As David was responding, I was formulating some things in my mind, somewhat based on what Cam said: "How can you...?"
In the automotive repair trade, there are guidelines in existence that tell how many hours labor are reqiured for different jobs. A water pump on a VW takes this long, an alternator on a Chevy takes that long.
Would it be possible to make something like the pricing guides, that are based on info you supply? you put in your individual overhead costs, and material costs, then it tells you what you need to charge for a given item. Complex to setup, to be sure, but then you could take a case like this one, giving the guy the "benefit of the doubt" (low shop rent etc.) and show him how his arrangement won't last. Also that starting cheap to draw customers initialy is a really bad idea.
This presented by "The keepers of the craft" in a way to try and draw them in. It's RATHER DIFFICULT making converts of people that feel you're angry at them. I'm thinking "Come on over, look at the cool signs people 'round here are making, look at the fellowship..." and so on.
I don't know that I could contribute much to a vinyl pricing system. Most of the time, it seems up for grabs to me. I try giving my best price on a pair of magnetics, only to have the client tell me that so-and-so's doing them for $25 a pair (loss leader). Then I drive around the corner, and there's a little coro sign on a telephone pole about mag signs for $89.99 a pair. I was told to consider what other services in my area go for, (electricians, plumbers) and that was smart advice from that lady, but I can't help wondering if those other trades have "instant electrician machines", or "instant plumber machines". Undeniably, the proliferation of sign machines has affected the trade. So its understandable how this thing comes about. I am not being sarcastic to say that the level of intellect on this BB is capable of a productive solution.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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I think ya missed CJ's point... or maybe I'm missing it (I'm sure he'll let me know if I am.. hehe)
Why do you care what everyone else is doing, instead of focusing on what YOU are doing? I'm sure that guy isn't worried about your business in the least. You aren't even in direct competition with the guy but if you were, you still shouldn't even worry about it.
Put your attentions and energies towards your own business and you'll be better for it.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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his work may be "Ug-leeee", but at least he's got a 'semi-professional' website allowing people to find him----do y'all have a better website for yourselves??? Some might, but I'll bet not everyone does....
I agree, I think the work is poor, but CJ and some others have a very valid point----and David Harding, right on man!
I do seminars all around the country----not to tell people they're doing it wrong, just that they could perhaps be doing it better----is this any different??
As for the copyright and logo police, whatever happens, happens....
posted
CJ, David, Mike, etc. all have very valid points. I have to agree. He might be making a mess of things for himself, but in this day and time, its hard to make a living for your family and self. Hes probably like the rest of us, just trying to make it. Although his use of copyrighted material is wrong for sure, I thought his coaster idea was pretty cool. We need not look down our nose at anyone, at least thats what I think.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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Come on John, David and you other party poopers. Don't ruin the fun of us trashing our "inferiors".
As CJ said, if he was registered or posted here, we would be singing a different tune. As much as the next guy, I am fed up with the crap being put out by an ever increasing number of cheapo startups. But you know what? I don't think their intention is to put out crap and deprive me of a living, but to make a some kind of living of their own.
Tragic though, both of us get hurt anyways, but trashing another man isn't going to improve my lot.
As far as copywrited logos et al, well check your own hard drives for pirated fonts, clipart and software.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2787 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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dont keep mine on the hard drive....GOT IT ALL ON CD'S!!!!!!!!! as for him havin a web site...how many here have one......that is making them money...mikey is the only one i know of. web site might help me....but dont think it would do much......also ive seen these new guys dump a ton of money in a yellow page SPREAD, only their outa business by year end from spendin all thei money on the add!!!
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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My web-site brings in quite a bit of business.......but my work comes mostly from word-of-mouth........and a reputation developed over about 50 years!!
If a person just learns "BASIC Layout, Composition, and Design", the rest will take care of itself !!
Unfortunatly......Well, hell....you know..
If you do "TOP" quality work, ya don't have to worry about the other guy.......You'll be too busy takin care of your own damn business....!!
My biggest worry is.......... Doing "ONE" line at a time, and making that line the VERY BEST that I can, and a little better than the last one..... !!
As for me 'lightening Up...........that ain't gonna happen in this lifetime.....so you'll just have to get used to it, or ignore it...!!
Rob.......... I've seen your work, and without trying to be mean or an asshole (which I definatly can be when needed).......your best move would be to quit looking for others shortcomings, and faults in their work, and pay attention to your own........I might also suggest an "Apprenticeship Program"....!!
I really enjoy seeing the work of those that you can tell at a glance what they've put into developing their skills........and I will "ALWAYS" help anyone that asks for help, if I can......but I have very little tolerance, for those ..............well heel......ya'll know again...
So much for wasting time on all this pointless stuff.........most of which falls on deaf ears anywayzzzzzz.......I gotta start over on a piece I just screwed up by not payin attention.....AGAIN.......hahaha I just love puttin 20 or more hours into a job, and then doing ONE damn line the wrong way.........hehehehe....Oh well !!
Later...........cj
-------------------- CJ Allan CJs Engraving 982 English Dr. Hazel, KY 42049
posted
You know what. I'm doing away with this thread right now. Maybe someday I'll post something like a "Joe Blow's B-Day" post or a "What you doing this weekend" post. You know something REALLY "on topic" like all the rest of the stuff I see NOT getting flamed like this post.
How we went from a funny (and a little sad) topic of how this guy is de-valuing our industry to this is beyond me! I mean seriously, I was laughing about this until I read some of your posts.
Some of you need to lighten up
P.S. to CJ I'll put up the worst sign I made, 5 years ago when I was new at this, against this guy's crap any day!
-------------------- Rob McCauley
Production Manager Archway Graphic Designs a Division of Sign Express, Inc. www.signexpress.tv Little Rock, Ar 501.224.0227 --- The most beautiful thing about a tree is what you do with it after you cut it down. ;-) Posts: 53 | From: Little Rock, Ar | Registered: Feb 2002
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Have we become so egotistical and arrougant that we should single out individuals and point out their shortcomings in public???????? Who's next????? Me? You? An old signpainter once told me "There's two kind of people out there in this biz boy,....those that criticize,....and those that can and do,...." His next question was which do you want to be? The artist or the critic?
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rob at least, If your going to put it up on a public board. Honour it! Don't delete it! There still was nothing wrong with everyones voice......
Here is my edit.. I try something new everyday.You should see some of the mess that I make and other projects that turn out sweet. But every day of this Industry that I have worked in........TELLS ME MORE ON THE WAY TO WORK IT!!!!!
[ July 03, 2003, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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I know this poor horse has been whipped to death and then some, however, what follows made me rethink publicly ridiculing other’s work, even in jest:
I will ‘fess up to the fact that I have a portfolio named “Ugloids by LetterDeads”, which contains some of the most painful eyesores masquerading as signs imaginable. What is really sad is that a number of these are of actual sign shop identification. In years past, I sent many to Signs of the Times’ Ugly Sign Contest. I even submitted the Grand National Champion one year, a picture of a “SHCOOL BUS” taken by my brother’s father in law in Kentucky.
One year, I submitted a number of entries and had several pages of photos published, including the section “Town without Pretty”. Also, among the photos I sent, was a picture of a billboard advertising a major outdoor advertising firm. The billboard was falling apart, the copy and background were peeling off.
The day that issue of ST came out, I started receiving phone calls. The first was from a sign painter in the “Town without Pretty”, laughing and thanking me for what my submissions were going to do for his business. The next call was of a far different vein, for it was from a national manager of the outdoor advertising company. “Mr. Harding, did YOU take that picture?” “Yes.” “WHERE is that billboard?” “In Colorado.” “WHERE in Colorado?” “Somewhere, North of Alamosa.” “WHAT HIGHWAY?” “Let me get a map. Let’s see... the West side of highway 17, about a mile North of town.” “THANK YOU.” CLICK. I looked at my watch. It was 3:30 PM on Friday. I thought, “Someone is going to have his weekend ruined.”
Shortly thereafter, I was visiting with Jay Lansberg at a trade show, while Bob Bonds was working his pinstriping magic nearby. Jay and I were discussing that Ugly Sign issue and Jay told me: “Do NOT mention the Ugly Sign contest to Bob.”
A few minutes later, as I was shooting the breeze with Bob, I foolishly made an offhand reference to the contest. Bob absolutely blew up. My still burning ears recall the gist of his diatribe, which was to the effect of: “This is the ONLY industry that has a CONTEST to MAKE FUN of others in the same trade! These people are TRYING, they are doing their best, but they are RIDICULED! Many of these people who do their own signs CANNOT AFFORD something better! WHO ARE YOU to judge them! HOW DARE ANYONE insult their efforts in attempting to do something artistic! I cannot believe the ARROGANCE of some people!...”
By the time he finished, I felt dirty and ashamed and about as tall as a molecule of lint. My attitude was adjusted, for the better, by a true master of the craft, who had every reason himself to think he was superior to other sign writers, but did not.
After that, I have looked more at the intent of the person trying to do something that may be over his head, rather than the result. There are many fields that, were I to do my best in them, my efforts would easily wind up in their Ugly Hall of Fame.
Although I still take pictures of shameless signs for my own personal nausea, I do not enter any more in the contest. I have some beauts, though, maybe even another Grand National Champion...
[ July 03, 2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: David Harding ]
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5114 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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hey what happened to the link? i wanna see too...
-------------------- -------------------- Dave Cox C2 Media Services (Formerly That Sign Guy) dave@c2mediaservices.com -------------------- Full Color Printing Posts: 295 | From: Sacramento CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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David harding, I wish I was as articulate as you. Great reply, all of us should read it and maybe come away with a different attiude towards others, whether or not they are in same industry or not. People bashing is an old trait, but old doen't make it right, have any bashers ever had shoe on other foot? Might think differently about how you treat others yourself. My two cents, thank you...
-------------------- Frank Magoo, Magoo's-Las Vegas; fmagoo@netzero.com "the only easy day was yesterday" Posts: 2365 | From: Las Vegas, Nv. | Registered: Jun 2003
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Well, I guess it's time for me to eat some crow.
CJ, I admire your honesty. What I thought were valid comments were worded way too heavily.
In an attempt at humour along with pointing out what I thought were real points of note, I came back to see what other tidbits of humor had popped up since.
Then I saw your post and the subsequent posts.
Dave, I'm feeling much the same as you did right now. I took a direct quote from that website and shredded it without any real thought. I was more concerned with his wording than his intenetion. "Shmuck" was just uncalled for. He's trying to make a living, no different than anyone else.
CJ, not unlike you, I have made my name by word of mouth and have tried to make that name a good one. In that respect, I do worry about my work first. I rarely worry about the competition when the quality of their product is "questionable".
Timi, you were asked a question... ....which do you want to be? The artist or the critic? I've always believed that both would be the correct answer. I am my own worst critic. I have never let myself get to the point that I was beyond repraoch and I look for ways to improve my work...always. I also have looked at other peoples work and mulled in my head how I would have approached the same project. That has been a learning tool over the years.
Annually, my work is put on public display and judged, sometimes harshley, sometimes with praise, often with biased opinions. I guess I got a liitle overzealous on this one, but the concerns for copyrite, spacing, layout and design were there. Sorry I buried them so deep.
Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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James, Ted, John, David, Dave Cox, Frank, Ray, et al...
Thank you for the positive feedback to my preceding comments on this thread–there I go sounding like Ebay! I thought long and hard before I interjected my opinions but after a while I felt I just had to jump in and hopefully, put a different light on the discussion.
As an example of the fact that what one man treasures another may trash, I’ll tell an additional story on myself. Some years ago, we built a sign for the reception area of a company I’ll call Impala Energy. Their logo was a lithograph of the head of an impala. The wood in the entry was done in Bird’s Eye Maple and Honduras Mahogany, the floor was black Granite. We waterjet cut the lettering out of black Granite, we built the logo of an inlay of Bird’s Eye Maple and Honduras Mahogany, which we purchased from a local exotic wood supplier.
This was the days before every local barber shop also advertised vinyl signs and CNC services, so we had to hand cut the inlay. My foreman, who I will call Ray (name changed to protect the guilty) and I laboriously cut, sanded and fit each piece of the complicated puzzle. We did not know that the experts doing inlay work did so by tilting the table of the band and jig saws and cutting both layers stacked so that the pieces were cut on a taper. They could be placed together and pushed through until they were tight, and the protruding piece would be sanded down flush with the other.
We were so enamored of the finished job--I still think it looks good, but obviously from what followed, what do I know? Ray proudly went down to the exotic woods supplier to show off his creation. The proprietor, a woodworker of some note, took one look at it and screeched: “MY GOD, Ray! What have you DONE to that piece of wood!” The next sound was the shattered remnants of Ray’s ego ricocheting off the floorboards. What looked great to Ray and me was a joke in the eyes of an expert. Obviously, we weren’t accomplished inlay artisans.
I really liked the way CJ put it: “My biggest worry is.......... Doing "ONE" line at a time, and making that line the VERY BEST that I can, and a little better than the last one..... !!”
If all of us, including Anything Vinyl, adopted that mindset about our work, the sign aesthetics in our areas would improve dramatically and, hopefully, my inlay prowess will as well.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5114 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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