posted
I've noticed a trend in recent posts where certain materials & procedures have been failing, which has led me to post a few questions. Being a veteran of sign making since 1976 BC (before computers) I've noticed a change in Industry Standards with materials, substrates, and paints. The quality & Longevity of a sign depends on the procedure & materials used. Scrimping on materials and curtailing procedures will only result in an inferior product. (sign)
Example: A customer calls and orders a *temporary* banner: "Summer Sale". He wants it for a promotional sale that will last for two weeks. You order a 8 ounce white banner, and when it arrives, you letter it with intermediate vinyl.
The customer puts it up using the gromets normally and attaches it to his building for the two weeks. The customer got such a good response; he leaves the banner up for the rest of the summer.
Towards the end of the summer *your* banner starts to tear, and the vinyl lettering peels. He calls you up and complains about the banner.
How could this have been avoided?
Example II
You get a call from a customer who wants his truck *hand* lettered; both doors, and one larger on the rear of the truck. He has a dark blue truck, and wants a simple layout with white lettering. You make a nice one color layout into a pounce pattern, and start lettering with white. Just one year down the road, he calls and says, "*Your* lettering is fading!"
Again, how can this be avoided?
Example III A customer calls & wants a 4X8; red with white lettering. You coat out MDO with BM red, and seal the edges. Atfer it dries, you apply HP white vinyl to the red 4X8. The customer does his own install to a wooden wall that faces south. A normal installation. After only eight months he calls to tell you, "The red on *your* sign is fading."
How do you avoid this?
Epilog: -I'm not looking for answers to these questions. I know the answers. Lately I see that alot of the answers are incorrect. Your posts are answered by people who don't even have signs that are three years old. The veterans here deserve more *respect*! Rick Sacks has never led me down the wrong path. Ron Percell has been doing signs since he was six. Si Allan started before time began. I started when I was fifteen. Are you so stuck in your own path; that you are not able to see a better way? Like the paint thing. The industry standard *is* One-Shot! Yesterday, I used a can of 1-shot that was three years old, with a one inch thick skin, that didn't even have a lid. A few drops of laquer thinner, some paint thinner, 4007 hardner, and it was as good as new. Why would anyone use anything else? I really don't want this thread to turn into; veterans vs newbies. I don't know what I want. All I know, is why are all these "OT" posts showing up. I don't wanna know what kind of dog you have. Sure dogs are cute, but that doesn't help me with, why vinyl fails.(not that I have vinyl failing)
What ever happened to step-by-steps?
^^-just wondering in the heart of gold country... Richard Bustamante Nevada City, California www.signsinthepines.com
PS. If I answer your post, and tell you, "your wrong." Do you think I'll get flamed? Will you flame me for *this* post?
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Nice post Richard! I once put up a hand lettered banner for a bingo hall. . . .it lasted 13 years! Mow I often ask the customer "How long do you want it to last". John Arnott
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Hi Richard. I agree with your position (to some extent) that 1-Shot has been, and is considered "the standard" for painting signs. Lately, however, I've found that their paints TOO are subject to premature fading and chalking, and they don't last as thet did in days gone by. In years past, it was not uncommon for a sign that I painted to last for as many as 12 years, before a repaint became necessary. Today, I could reproduce that same sign, using the same materials and preparation methods that the original sign had, and the newer one might have a useable lifespan of only 5 years...TOPS.
Professional painters like Gary Anderson, Raymond Chapman, and others have begun using Acrylic Latex type paints on the signs that they produce with very good results. This is a situation where due dilligence and research has been done, and the results do speak for themselves.
The point is, when certain products no longer perform as expected, then it's time to re-examine just what we're using, and try to find a solution that's practical and workable. Personally, I'm not "married" to any one product, and I do try to keep an open mind to new materials, techniques, or methods to improve the work that I put out. Sometimes I've been "burned" in this quest, but then those experiences too are part of the store of knowledge that one tends to accumulate, over the course of a career. There ARE some definite DO's and DON'Ts when working with some of the newer paints, substrates, brushes etc., but thankfully there's also a vast pool of knowledge from which to draw upon (fellow Letterheads) when one encounters an unusual situation or project.
Toward that end, I also try to help out whenever I hear of a fellow Letterhead having a problem. I don't always have a solution, but sometimes I can think of an unconventional way or alternative solution. I think that having a narrower mindset as to different or newer materials, would tend to "limit" the examination of alternate solutions.
The choices that we make as to substrates, paints, brushes, solvents, etc. ARE an important part of the "design solution" to any project that we may tackle. I think that it's just far more advantageous to have a working knowledge of more than one possible solution at your disposal. Long story short: There's ALWAYS more than 1 way to skin a cat.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2690 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
Flame you, not quite, more like applaud you for bringing up a good subject. I too have noticed a lot of folks have expectations of longevity a lot lower than mine. On a recent post some folks thought it was OK that a sign was peeling and fading after 4 years, that it's the fault of the paint manufacturers, sure it's happened to me a time or two and I was embarassed as I knew why and I fixed it.
As for your examples and how I would have avoided the problems.
In example one, I'd have lettered a cheap ass vinyl banner with vinyl ink, the banner would disitegrate before the lettering faded. I simply DO NOT trust computer cut vinyl to last as long as "they" say it will, been bitten too many times. I've just about sworn off vinyl completely, One Shot has only let me down once in thirty years.
Example two. Fading after one year? That would have to be a bad batch of paint. White One Shot over dark blue ought to be good for six years before any fading shows up. Somebody is over thinning the paint. Of course both you and I know we wouldn't use straight white right out of the the can but rather doctor it with some silver and possibly some blue to get it to cover better. A mask and rolling or brushing the One Shot on straight would also work. We used to hand cut transfer paper on the truck B.C..
Example three white letters on a red background. I'd prime and seal as normal. Three coats of automotive acrylic enamel white. Cut and apply the letters in a vinyl mask, three coats automotive acrylic enamel red. Remove letters.
BTW my dog "Angus" is half lab and half chow , he's really cute and smells worse than any goat I've ever run across.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I just use the best materials regardless of what the customer says he thinks he wants. Then I guarantee it forever. Im 63.....I figure I'll be long gone before I get a callback!
posted
There's probably a decent chance some customer is going to be calling back about something dispite the most valiant efforts to produce the utmost superior product.
Just do your best to make good signs & try to take the right calls.
(:
-------------------- Glenn S. Harris
....back in the sign trade full time. Posts: 293 | From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Just thought I'd add one more little anecdote:
Driving around I'm always checking out signs I've done over the years.
Almost 10 years ago I was working at a FastSigns. This was the first time a moved up from production to design. One of the first signs I ever designed was for this little Mexican restaurant. I spent alot of time (relativley) & made it look all cool & stuff. Of course this was their permanent main signage & the boss sold them a 4x8 which we took a cheap MDO & overlaid it with INTERMEDIATE vinyl!
That sign is STILL UP! It's all faded to hell, but the restaurant is still open and my sign is STILL THERE! What a trip...
-------------------- Glenn S. Harris
....back in the sign trade full time. Posts: 293 | From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Okay, Here's my thoughts. Just the way they don't make cars like they used to, I think it's the same with some signs. If people can be "trained" into accepting inferior products (autos, home appliances, computers) why not train them to accept cheaply made signs as well. The manufactors sell more product, and will in turn always have long time customers.
-------------------- Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl) Tacoma, WA Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel. Posts: 3959 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
if mdo signs are suppose to last more than 7 years...where the hell is our job security?lol...you don't paint your woodsided house only once in 7 years...vinyl is only 5-7 years...a large percentage of people change their signage b4 then or go outta business....now i'm not talking about a $5000.00 carved gold leaf quality made sign...i'm talking your run of the mill el cheapo mdo paint and vinyl...surely you can't expect every one of them to last that long...i work very hard and i don't skimp on my materials...i mostly use the one shot/chromatic bulletin(unless its a special color or rush job), hp vinyl, try to use dibond to avoid mdo...but i'll be damn if i'm going to be doing over signs that are 5 years old in southern exposure for free...aint gonna happen here...i'm only as good as the products that are available to me...and they don't guarantee them for 7 yrs...so why should i? they just don't make things they way they used to by golly!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Richard, bravo! I go out'a my way to ask questions, an' give a lil' info to the customer 'bout what to expect. And I try to make the longest lasting signs I can...Karyn..."job security"?.....these people trust me with their life...an' keep thinkin' of other signs they need! I've only recently begun the pattern of freshening up signs that are up to 10 years old....an' that's the south facing sides that really need it! I paint all iron work with automotive primer/finish every chance they let me! In all actuality... my personal goal in this biz is to make a sign that I never have to touch again, LOL! Makes them happy...makes me look "smart" an' trust worthy an' all that...'sides I hate doin' the same thing twice...gets boring...this ain't no factory and it certainly ain't a repair shop ....I'm after the "custom" stuff! Do a great business, hav'a great day! Go the extra mile...IT WILL PAY OFF!!!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I agree with Ken that alot of material (paint, MDO)is not of the same quality as years ago, but in my book, sign specific materials are far superior to the hardware store / homeowner variety.
Early in my sign making career, I tried other paints and always ended up back with One Shot. There's just no substitute for how it dries, flows, and lasts. I've seen several posts where signmakers said they tried this or that and "it still looks good after 3 years!" Woopty doo! My first MDO sign was made 9 years ago and it still looks as good as new, with red vinyl on One Shot paint!
All of what I consider premature failures were signs where I tried to substitute something from the hardware store when I was out of One Shot.
Rich, I applaud your post... no flame jobs here (unless you bring me a truck)
Karyn, you'll get longer life from your panels if you switch to lettering enamel. One Shot will confirm this. Bulletin colors are made for shorter term projects like billboards (bulletin boards... thus the name) Kevin Ledbetter at One Shot told me the bulletin colors have (for one thing)less pigment than lettering enamels thus the lower price and shorter life.
[ June 11, 2003, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: Dave Sherby ]
posted
I was blasted by local folk in Atlanta for using 1-Shot on everything..."Why waste good paint?" I have never had to repaint anything so far.
Well, there was that one board that day, that I kept having to redo the phone number for when I was teaching my first born to count but that was a long time ago hehehe.
posted
While I agree it's impossible to warranty all signage, I think it all comes down to educating customers as to what is a reasonable expectation for the life of a particular type of sign ..
If someone asks me how long will a run of the mill paint&vinyl sign last, I'll say 5-7 years, depending on location. If it fails in 3½ years I'd worry about it, in 4½ I'd worry less, but I'd make sure I took the opportunity to upsell the customer on something better, if that's what their needs or expectations are, even if at a serious discount.
In interests of longevity we've moved from MDO to Dibond for most outdoor signs, and while we still use intermediate vinyls for all but premium signs, we've stopped buying intermediate red, <although I'm still not convinced that the HP red is less prone to fading ... I've got test swatches on the south side of my roof>
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Seems to me if someone really wanted a sign to last a while, they'd use automotive paint - even the reds last a long time.
How about care and maintenance? Anyone ever get up there to clean the dirt and birdcrap off a sign? That would have to contribute to longevity too... if dirt and birdcrap can damage an automotive finish, no way in hell is One Shot or vinyl gonna stand up to it.
Longevity isn't completely determined by materials and the application, care and maintenance goes a long way.
BTW, it's "Ensuring"... unless you got an insurance company that will pay for signs that need to be repaired.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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You never really know how long a customer will use *your* banner. He may take it down, and put it up again and again. Using an eight ounce banner will not do. It is too thin and will not hold up. Period. To insure longevity & quality, always use a twelve ounce, or, in some cases, a ten ounce banner.(interior) Intermeadiate vinyl again, simply will not do. The vinyl's adhesive is not agressive enough. It is too thick and brittle. Always use HP vinyl.
When your customer comes to pick up his banner, there should be a letter that you give him, discribing the *proper* use of that banner. In this letter, there should be instructions on how to care, store, and install *your* banner.
#1: Never fold the banner. For storage, loosely roll the banner up with the lettering facing outward. Store upright, in a box or on a tube.
#2: Clean with soapy water. Never with harsh cleaners. Never pressure wash.
#3: Whenever possible, install onto a flat surface using all the gromets. "Flapping" in the wind will damage your banner.
If all this criteria is followed to the "T", it is only then, that you will warranty it.
Your banner will last twelve months.
Epilog: I've held off on responding to posts to see what type of response I would get. I am shocked, I tell you SHOCKED, to see that none of you noticed that example #1, used an eight ounce banner. Thats first grade sh*t here. The high performance is a no brainer. The care needed to increase a banners life must be conveyed to your customer. I see in the posts above that materials are not what they used to be. I agree with you whole haertedly. But by changing certain procedures slightly , the result would be a longer lasting sign. Not so much in the modification of paint or materials, but how the application of these materials are used. Many have gone to automotive paint, others to latex, but I have remained with One-Shot. With the removal of lead from One-Shot its quality has suffered. That is why they make the additives.
"Like the flower, you must bend with the wind."
Thank you all for responding.
>>Karyn...I think your wrong. Making a top notch sign will only add to your "job security". Example: A customer walks in wanting a sign. You drop a few names of other businesses you've done signs for. He says, "thank you", and leaves. This gentleman goes to "Mel's Diner", a customer of yours, who you've done a 2'X 16' MDO sign using a red background, and gold leaf lettering, with a 1/2" black outline, just two years ago. The lettering still looks fine, but the background is faded and "chalky". The prospective customer never calls back.
^^-in the heart of gold country... Richard Bustamante Nevada City, Calfifornia www.signsinthepines.com
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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In your first example you specify a banner that's supposed to last two weeks.
A two week banner doesn't warrant using the higher grade of banner material and HP vinyl.. it's a TWO WEEK banner!.. yeah yeah I know, the difference in material cost is minimal but the final price is very different.
In this case the customer tells you he wants a temporary sign (ie: he doesnt want to pay for better material if he doesn't have to) so you make him a sign to suit (ie: cheap banner) and let him know it's a temporary deal that carries no warranty beyond the two weeks he wanted. If he wants to leave a cheap-o banner up for the rest of the summer that's up to him, but he knows well in advance that banner is NOT intended to last a long time therefore if he wants a repair or replacement it's on him!
Now if you can upsell the guy on the better materials so he can get more use out of the banner, that's another story.. but that wasn't presented in your scenario. He specs a two week banner he gets a two week banner, not a two year (or more) banner just cause in the back of my head I know he's gonna leave it up longer.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
rich...that's cool you don't agree with me cause i don't agree with you either. i'm not going to take responsibility for a customers poor/cheap request for temporary signage when they use it far beyond its means...i use 13 oz banner material and 3mil calender vinyl for temporary banners...if that's what they order far be it me to take it upon myself and give them something they aren't willing to pay extra for....and the days of me saying well it's only a few $ more, i'll eat it, is oooova baby. and for the record i have never had a customer complain about my signs not lasting. i've actually just had my first "paint issue" recently after 10 years in biz...a restoration which i will never do again btw. i certainly don't skimp on my materials and my service is unbeatable...i'm a reasonable person and i don't think i'm in business to second guess my customers request for temporary signage if that's what they want....if you want to use hp vinyl on temp stuff...you go guy...i'll keep my money thank you!
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
My point is that its a direct reflection on your business.
-Rich
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I am taking this somewhat personal, after having responded to the other paint post with an explanation of why I use 1Shot only for lettering. It is not really necessary to give this explanation, but I will feel better if I do: I have been in and out of the sign business since 1979 and have completed a 31/2 year apprenticeship in sign making back in Europe. Things have changed. This is a different country and continent, a different decade with different materials, but one thing never changes: there is always room for improvement, always more to learn. I learn from your stand for quality, that's what I come here for, to become better in what I do. I post sometimes to keep the discussion going, to throw in a little piece here and there, free for anybody to pick up or discard. Never is any disrespect meant to the professionals or anybody else. As far as your questions go, I see my personal biggest need in learning how to handle pressure (real or imaginative) from customers and competition better, in order to feel right about raising prices, and not to be alarmed at loosing too many jobs.
posted
If I was going to use 1-shot lettering for a background instead of bulletin, I'd probably be trying to sell a metal sign with an automotive finish. Lettering enamel is expensive stuff. For the money someone would be paying me for a 4x8 MDO painted entirely with lettering enamel I think I'd even be trying to upgrade that customer to a demensional sign or a lighted sign.... maybe sandblasted redwood.
I'm no expert on pricing though. It's a lettle tighter her in LA.
-------------------- Glenn S. Harris
....back in the sign trade full time. Posts: 293 | From: Baton Rouge, LA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Makes them happy...makes me look "smart" an' trust worthy an' all that...'sides I hate doin' the same thing twice...gets boring...this ain't no factory and it certainly ain't a repair shop ....I'm after the "custom" stuff! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Do a great business, hav'a great day! Go the extra mile...IT WILL PAY OFF!!! 
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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