posted
I know this has to happpen to others! Potential customer calls for a quote. They give specifics such as "maintenance free" sign work that will last forever So, in your best effort, you know your materials and design and quote as such. Then you check back with them just to be looked down on as "to high". After explaining the materials you would use in an effort to educate them while they're price shopping, they go with someone else. You see the project done with much cheaper materials! How aggravating! I could lessen the price with cheaper materials, but that's not what they asked for!
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Ever read those article Mike Jackson used to write about the 3 tiered pricing approach? That practice provides the open dialogue about the cheaper sign and a great potential for upselling to a finer product.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6823 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Had a customer ask us for the same thing, and we even included a couple of layouts. Then she hits us with everything looks really good I just have to get 3 more bids now. Hopefully she is not getting bids on our designs. But really any respectable shop won't use my designs.... I hope.
-------------------- TJ Duvall Diamond State Graphics, Inc.
New Castle, DE 19720 Posts: 396 | From: New Castle,Delaware | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Chuck, sounds like you already have avoided this headache!! There are only two things that last forever, death and taxes. In my opinion, sometimes it's a blessing to lose a job like this. They end up being more of a headache after you get the job.
posted
I have alot of people that come in and want sandblasted signs thinking that they are cheap. I use to give them the price($50 sq.ft) then see something much cheaper up about a month later. Now when I quote sandblasted signs I will always include a price for Omegaboard or something similar just to give them an option for something else.
Rick, That is a good idea to give three different levels for pricing.
TJ, I wouldn't let them leave with your design. There aren't as many honest sign people out there as you think. I know from experience. If they want to leave with it, then have them pay for it and if they come back to have you make the sign take it off the total price.
posted
Donald & Rick hit it on the head. NEVER EVER EVER let sketches leave without getting some $ first.
I always use the 3 tier system unless it's a job I don't want to do. (ie the annoying guy who kept calling me about banners/coroplast etc for bible school, kept changing what they wanted, didn't have a specific budget, wanted something inexpensive but they could reuse for years. I think he just wanted me to give it to them, didn't happen. I finally gave him my prices and the prices out of signwriters pricing book as my normal prices so he would order or quit bothering me).
When I do the 3 tier thing, I'd say 90% of the time, they go for the highest one.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
We now have 7 year old large mural carvings in full color that look like the day they were executed. Completely maintenance free, just hose 'em down with water once in a while. But you'll have to go to our website to find out how its done.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Thanks you guys! I use the tier pricing ( on occassion ), but I just had to ask some of you. I don't mind doing the "cheaper" work! I live in a small town and there are different budgets, but when they ask for one thing and settle for something else then that bugs me. It's just a lost sale. Not a lost 500.00 sale, but a lost 250.00 sale. I just wish I could read their minds, but it seems like the tier approach would kind of head it off some. I try building and designing the right way "all" the time, but numbnuts up the road doesn't and I lose the job to them. Burns has it right. "CUSTOMERS ARE THE ENEMY" You got it Bob!
Thanks all,
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I can identify with you, Chuck. My neighbor's wife across the street caught me on my way out the door to Mass Mayhem on Friday morning and inquired about lettering his truck. I explained that I was just leaving and said I'd stop in Monday morning when I got back. At 7:30 AM Monday, as I was walking out to my garage, I heard a "beep" and saw my neighbor smiling and waving proudly about the fact that the truck had been lettered. The truck was a clunker and the lettering somehow managed to make it worse. Totally illegible. I see it nearly every day just 30 feet from my shop as it pulls out and still have no f@*king clue what it says. I don't mind losing a job like that, but whoever did the vinyl on that, if they got more than $10 for it, should invest the money in a color theory course. The only thing worse than a cheap customer is a cheap customer in a freakin' rush.
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Some people are just cheapskates. The guy who got the job probably went through h*ll with them before the job was completed, and made less money, as well. I just lost a job lettering 2 police cruisers that I bid at $370.00 each (silver 5" stripe with a 1" stripe top and bottom, length of car, with city logo & "POLICE" length of driver's door, logo and "POLICE" on back trunk lip, all one color). Another guy did them "for free" at $180.00 each. Go figure.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Thanks again for the replies, but I don't think I made my message to clear. I'm not talking about cheap customers (this time). What I mean is after listening to what they would like to have I quote as such. But sometimes what they wind up with from someone else is "totally" different. If what I priced was to high with the materials I would have used, I miss the opportunity to lower the cost with cheaper materials that they eventually decided on and I don't get the second opportunity to price it that way. Example would be "I want it to last a long time" Ok! I'll build it out of Alumalite and high performance vinyl. Then I see a one color coroplast hanging! Not to mention a bad layout. See what I mean! How do you prevent losing a bang-out job when they "ask" for a premium sign. Boneheads! I think I'll pay more attention to the tier pricing and also the materials in the pricing too and not just the layout of the tier pricing. Seems to have happened more lately with the economy as it is right now.
Thanks again yous guys!
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Before I started painting at the age of 25, I worked at car dealerships, working my up from lot boy to service writer. The business & negotiation stuff I saw there was very valuable. Here is one "script" that sales staff would use to soften up a customer who complained about price: CUSTOMER: "That is too much"
SALESMAN: "You must have had a different figure in mind. May I ask what price you were expecting?"
CUSTOMER GIVES SOME RIDICULOUS LOW PRICE.
SALESMAN: "May I ask how you arrived at that figure?"
Usually the customer cannot come up with an intelligent answer because they haven't thought that far ahead, (fun to watch them squirm) but whatever they say can be used to formulate a closing strategy. This is a good way to make a customer receptive to education about what goes into the product, and explain they only have to buy it once, but live with it every day, and "Isn't it important to feel that you have bought something you don't have to worry about?"
Dealers NEVER quote over the phone. it's always "What's your name & number? I'd like to check the current stock AND check on what what will be available in the next few days. Speaking of availability, what would be a good time for you to stop in?" Very slick.
The most notorious quick-closing method is called the "OK Deal" and was developed in Florida, home the most aggressive used-car dealers anywhere. In a nutshell, it is a set of methods to make the customer back himself into a situation where a purchase is the only way to not look like a loser. Here's one sample close; the "If I could, would you?"
SALES: "You can buy it today for only $700 a month!" ("stick 'em to the ceiling", an intentionally high payment that the customer feels quite justifed in rejecting, which gives customer a feeling of control)
CUSTOMER: Way too much! Sorry to bother you. (gets up)
SALES: "Hold on- Just for the sake of conversation, what payment amount would you be comfortable with? (sounds innocent enough...)
CUSTOMER: I could maybe pay $200 a month (customer feels safe that they will never go for it.)
SALES: "So, what you're saying is, if I COULD get you that car for that payment, you WOULD buy it- Right?"
CUSTOMER" "Uh, sure..."
SALES: "I really doubt that the boss would ever go for a payment that low, but what the heck, let's write it up with YOUR payment amount. The worst that could happen is the boss will laugh in my face, no big deal. And you will at least know you tried to get a good deal. And who knows? He might go for it!"
At this point, it is as good as done. They only discussed payment, not price, length of loan or interest rate. A bad way to buy a car. The customer now has a payment book that is an inch thick, with the low payments, long term and high interest, the car will depreciate faster than the loan is paid off ("upside down") which will lead to a horrible surprise a few years later when the car is traded in.
posted
Chuck, I think the question you've asked is a good one. I have some thoughts.
You took the customer at his word -- and your competitor may have asked them more probing questions. such as: WHY do you want it to last that long? HOW MUCH is your budget? WHEN do you need it? etc..
Some of these issues may have come up when you gave them the price. Did you mail or fax over a quote, or what? If you hand them the quote in person then you'd have seen their eyes roll back at your price. At that point you could have said "Oh, if that's too much, we could substitute less expensive materials" etc.
Bottom line: Ask more questions up front, and always give the price in person -- that's when you can do the negotiating. Yes, it takes more time for appointments, but you just lost a $250 sale -- $50 of that is profit. That $50 is probably worth the extra 20 minutes of "customer care".
Follow-up: Call the guy and politely ask them WHY they switched to the less expensive material. The customer's answers can tell you a lot:
"Bubba said this Coroplast sign would outlast the Dibond one you quoted." (customer needed to be EDUCATED, and instead was cheated)
"Bubba said he could do this one today. (SPEED was more important than quality)
"Bubba said this stuff was 10% cheaper." (PRICE more important than quality. plus, Bubba just "downsold" a $500 sign to $450, and gave the customer a $250 sign -- netting Bubba an extra $200).
Summary: Ask more questions up front Give prices in person Follow up to learn what you missed.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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....Si Chuck, I had this same thing happen to me. I usally do ask a lot of questions too, but I'd done work for this man as well as his son. He requested a quote on lifetime letters for the front of their brand new building. I gave him prices for 2 kinds of Gemini letters, as well as fig'erin' up aluminum letters that I would cut myself an' put an automotive finish on! Called him back after a few days and ha was still "thinkin" about it . . . then 2 weeks later I go by . . .styrofoam letters!! Max-bonded on the metal bldg.!! MAN! Not dense gator foam or nun'a that . . .styrofoam like $2 coolers are made of. Just HAD to ask him "what gives?" His reply, "They were 1/2 the cost." I'm like "Well, I'm gonna tell you somethin' so you feel bad twice, I could'a done 'em fer 1/2 of the "1/2" you paid fer 'em an' since yer like 70 years old, then, yeh they may have "lifetime" longevity for you. But when they start fallin' apart an' the birds quit havin' their way with 'em, I'm gonna quote you an' even bigger, badder price fer cleanin' up the mess an' doin' it right!" Chuck, the moral of this story is: "You don't sell, get or even want every job". There are even REALLY good payin' jobs that you just might want to turn away if they compromise your talent or if the customer is of such a nature that they compromise your sanity! Have a great day!!
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Chuck, I did get your point, but obviously I wasn't clear enough in my response.
A lot of times customers think they know what they want and they think they know what it will cost. They call you and tell you what they want. You tell them the price for exactly what they want (say $1000) and it is a lot higher than they thought it would (they figure $500). They think you're expensive. They call a couple different sign shops eventually figuring out no matter where they buy what they want, they're going to spend more than they thought. Then, some sign shop askes what kind of price range they have in mind ($500) or gives them options, basically gives the customer a few minutes of time and the customer realizes they have $500 not $1000 to spend so they buy what their budget allows. At this point, they're frustrated from talking to a bunch of sign shops or they're happy to have found a shop that seems to treat them as a client not a customer. Either way, they're going to buy from this shop instead of starting the process all over again.
Now, had you given them the 3 tier system to begin with, they probably would have went with you and what they could afford. Maybe they would have called a couple more shops to see if they could get what they want at the price they want to spend but probably would come back to you once they learn you can't buy a porsch for the cost of a vw bug.
Basically, some other shop quoted them a price for what they wanted then took the time to sell them a sign that fit their budget. YOU are the sign expert here. It is up to YOU to make the sale, to know more about signs and costs than the customer.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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I know Exactly what you mean. I can't count how many times that has happened. I've used the 3-tear method pricing high-end down to low-end. That doesn't matter in this case. I've showed different levels of price & what they'd get in return for their investment. Last year the guy said: "No - I'm just interested in the highest priced one." But it had to go thru a committee first. So here it is 14 months later, I go by & see a sign has been installed. It's not my design but it's also not the same quality that I had proposed. It looks like they found someone who did it really cheap. It's not very readable & don't stand out nearly as much as what I wanted to do. Wait til the wood turns grey then see if they still like it (that should render it totally unreadable). I wonder if whoever did it made a profit? Probably not.
Then there are those who reject your price as too high then turn around & buy some ugly sign for more than you asked. Actually that might be under the "give the customer exactly what they want" syndrome.
Now, when you "educate" the potential customer, do they buy from you or take your specs & try to locate someone who'll do it cheaper? More often they find a BSr who refutes your claims & convinces them that theirs is better; then gives them $hit.
-------------------- Bill Cosharek Bill Cosharek Signs N.Huntingdon,Pa
bcosharek@juno.com Posts: 704 | From: N.Huntingdon, Pa, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
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Well.......guess you just have to move on, but it sounds like a fixable deal! Oh well.....
Thanks
-------------------- Chuck Gallagher Pro Graphics Signs by Design Cabool, MO 417.962.3291 "I grew up in Letterville" Posts: 776 | From: Cabool, Mo. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I received a call from a contractor a couple months ago wanting me to redo signs "exactly as they are now" for a restaurant they're remodeling. He overly stressed they had to be identical to what they are now, only without the cracks, fading, etc. I gave him a quote for "Exactly as they are now". I went by the place today, the old sign faces were 3 color. The new ones are white lexan with 1 color vinyl. I didn't do the 3 tier because they had to be identical to existing. Oh well, I'll just tell myself the contractor I talked to had a brother-in-law who does sign work.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
So, in your best effort, you know your materials and design and quote as such. Then you check back with them just to be looked down on as "to high". After explaining the materials you would use in an effort to educate them while they're price shopping, they go with someone else. You see the project done with much cheaper materials! How aggravating! I could lessen the price with cheaper materials, but that's not what they asked for!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Chuck, I had this same thing happen to me. I usally do ask a lot of questions too, but I'd done work for this man as well as his son. He requested a quote on lifetime letters for the front of their brand new building. I gave him prices for 2 kinds of Gemini letters, as well as fig'erin' up aluminum letters that I would cut myself an' put an automotive finish on! Called him back after a few days and ha was still "thinkin" about it . . . then 2 weeks later I go by . . .styrofoam letters!! Max-bonded on the metal bldg.!! MAN! Not dense gator foam or nun'a that . . .styrofoam like $2 coolers are made of. Just HAD to ask him "what gives?" His reply, "They were 1/2 the cost." I'm like "Well, I'm gonna tell you somethin' so you feel bad twice, I could'a done 'em fer 1/2 of the "1/2" you paid fer 'em an' since yer like 70 years old, then, yeh they may have "lifetime" longevity for you. But when they start fallin' apart an' the birds quit havin' their way with 'em, I'm gonna quote you an' even bigger, badder price fer cleanin' up the mess an' doin' it right!" Chuck, the moral of this story is: "You don't sell, get or even want every job". ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
There are even REALLY good payin' jobs that you just might want to turn away if they compromise your talent or if the customer is of such a nature that they compromise your sanity! 
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