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Got a call from the local police today. Seems the squad car we did greapics on had a letter peeling in POLICE. We made a replacment and headed over. We replaced the letter, and saw many other spots that were not yet noticed by the chief.
On checking our files, we discovered that we used one Avery color, and one Gerber. No problem w/Gerber, only Avery. Anybody else have problem with peeling reflective Avery..We have almost no problems with peeling..ever.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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We've used it for years. Never a failure. How was the surface prepp'd?
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I used Avery white reflective recently and I noticed a few spots on some letters rising up a few days after I applied.
I prepped like normal with RT.
I haven't used it much so I can't say if it's normal or not. Just noticed it this one time.
-------------------- Randy Graphic Details Promotional Merchandise Distributor South Glens Falls, NY Posts: 381 | From: South Glens Falls, NY USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Yo, Bobert! You're right. I had forgotten that. Avery reflective has a definite requisite. NO WET APPLICATIONS. Period.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I quit using Avery reflective years ago because I was sick of letters falling off of some radio station remote studios we had lettered. They replaced 50 yard rolls twice and each roll gave me the same problem. The film would delaminate, leaving the adhesive on the truck and the lettering was missing.
I have almost a hundred yards of very expensive, useless material here. I can lay a letter on any substrate and peel the top off, leaving only adhesive. This was Avery's top of the line material.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5092 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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A friend of mine, that runs another local shop just went through this with Avery.
She has been using Avery reflective (Black and Yellow) on the Sheriff Departments cars since 1985. She has completed 10 cars since October and all of them are peeling. Same vinyl, same prep, same application. Avery replaced the vinyl 3 times on each color. You could actually remove the release liner, and fold it together, then pull it back apart. The guy from Avery finally told her that this time(4th) he would send the "permanent" reflective instead of the "repositionable" reflective she had originally ordered.(She had not asked for, or even heard of "repositionable" reflective vinyl.)
The new stuff can not be foldeed and pulled apart. If the adhesive touches anything you will have a fight removing it.
The bad part is, Avery replaced the vinyl, but she has 10 cars to strip and reletter. Two of them have already been redone once, and will have to be done again using the "permanent" vinyl. Tha is an awful lot of labor hours that she can not bill the Sheriff for and Avery will not pay for.
-------------------- Don Hulsey Strokes by DON signs Utica, KY 270-275-9552 sbdsigns@aol.com
I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane. Posts: 2283 | From: Utica, KY U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 1999
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Good grief, Don! That's something I didn't even consider. We've NEVER used repositionable on a vehicle installation. I can see now what happened.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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It would be best to know exactly what product you are using and what it's intended purpose is supposed to be. Avery has about 9 different reflectives ranging from 2 - 7 year life. Not all are for automotive use. Take a look at this.
I saw your posting on the site and thought I would address the situation. First off, Bob and Pierre, you are correct that Avery, 3M and Gerber all say dry application only on the reflective films. This is due to the aluminum metallized layer that will react with the water and produce aluminum oxide. The aluminum oxide will appear as a black spot or even just a “dead spot” in the reflectivity of the film. I realize that many installers apply reflective wet. I can not condone this! The failures may not happen immediately, but sooner or later...it is going to happen.
As for the adhesive failures, Avery introduced A7 with a Place-Rite adhesive several years ago. At that time, many comments were made about the over-aggressiveness of the Avery and the 3M Reflective adhesives. To help alleviate this problem of “once stuck, it’s stuck” problem, Place-Rite was designed to be initially repositionable, but permanent after 24 hours. With this new adhesive came a little extra application care. This included the use of medium tack premask; squeegeeing down the decal several times and keeping the decal in a temperature controlled environment for 24 hours. All these steps were not happening. During the past six months, the instructional bulletin (Appendix 1) has been included in all plotter ready boxes. I have attached a link to our website to help those who have not received one in their cartons.
As we found that inserts in the cartons are not always the best form of communication, Avery has decided that it is necessary to go back to our more aggressive adhesive. This adhesive is similar to many others in the reflective market and will be available through our distributor partners.
We continue to work on new and innovative ways to help the shop overcome problem applications. Reflective is one of those areas.
If you have any further issues, please feel free to contact me at the address or number listed below.
Tim
-------------------- Tim Doyle Avery Dennison 8695 Seward Road Hamilton, OH 45011 Posts: 19 | From: Hamilton Ohio | Registered: Jan 2003
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FYI it was only the Avery that peeled. Gerber ran along side it and did not peel. Prep should not be an issue. I apply EVERYTHING dry, and have for 20 years. I did get an email from Avery, maybe he can help
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I've applied Avery wet for many years and have never had a failure... yet! With this new info coming to light, I am considering changing suppliers to another brand. I apply all my stripes to firetrucks wet and don't plan to change that anytime soon.
I'd like to suggest to Avery to have it modified to accept wet application.
The only time I've had an Avery failure is when applying another brand of vinyl on top of Avery. Avery stuck, but wouldn't allow another brand on top. The plasticizers surfaced giving an 'oily' surface that wouldn't allow another vinyl without equal amount of aggressive glue to stick to the Avery surface. I've never mixed brands again.
If you decide to switch, please consider giving ND GRAPHICS the opportumity to supply you with 3M reflective. You'll find that we can supply the product quite competitively...and that your customers will associate the 3M brand with top quality performance.
Thanks!
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Rick, Which Avery Reflective were you using?
Instead of just hearing a general consensus of let's all dump Avery, I'd like to find out which of the 9 different reflectives you used and what actually happened.
I read the Service Bulletin on the PlaceRite reflective and there seems to be a lot that you have to do. If you don't do it, and the installation fails, who do you blame?
I'm still new to this and the last thing I want to hear is that all my stock of vinyl is garbage. I'm still trying to get rid of the "premium" stuff that came with my cutter cuz it won't weed. Wish I knew what brand it was so I wouldn't accidently come across it again.
My local supplier stocks only Avery and I cannot afford to stock every color of everything so I rely on my local supplier for urgent supplies.
I had a 10' long Avery reflective on both sides of my offshore boat for over a year. It was dry installed NV-1300 Black and held up to 75 mph in the water! I'm not brand loyal or anything, if my local stocked Oracal or Gerber, that's what I'd probably have.
More information would be helpful.
Thanks, Jim
[ May 26, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Jim Pooler ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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I letter over 20 police cars a year.........learned the hard way!!!! 3M ONLY!!!!!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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Tony, are you saying you have learned the hard way about all Avery products or just the reflective. I could live with having to buy some other brand of reflective.
Some folks are just brand loyal, and that's fine. If there are some real issues with a certain product, I would certainly like to know about it. I know the stuff I got with my cutter was garbage, even the premium grade, but I didn't know any better until I got some A7/A8 Avery and found out you really COULD weed vinyl.
posted
i have lettered 100 tractors and over 200 trailers with avery reflective and have not had a failure yet.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Well yours may be peeling.....But I can't even get my Avery to STICK. I have put the rolls of Avery in the back waaaaaaaay back....I don't much like em.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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Jim, just the reflective. The other Avery materials are fine!
-------------------- Tony Vickio The World Famous Vickio Signs 3364 Rt.329 Watkins Glen, NY 14891 t30v@vickiosigns.com 607-535-6241 http://www.vickiosigns.com Posts: 1063 | From: Watkins Glen, New York | Registered: Sep 2001
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I probably won't make any friends with this, but ...... No one wants to address the "prep or/clean" issue.
Someone even said "it shouldn't matter" ???
Well, it does matter, after being involved with film applications and removals since 1965, I have seen many more failures because of incorect cleaning then anything else !
How else would you explain some of the contradictory results stated here in these responces ?,some say it always sticks great after 200 jobs, some say it dosn't stick at all, some apply wet with great results some can't do it any way but dry.
I know for a fact some of you clean with "paint solvents" which are "oil derivitives" and contaminate the surface, I know that some of you clean with window cleaners, some use "shop rags" to wipe with, or "lint free/ static free" paper towels !!
All of these will (and DO) have a devistating effect on your application, and the longivity of that film on your work !
Even cleaning with straight Iso. Alcohol does not always eleminate all the contaminants, Alcohol (and some other solvents) flash off too quick sometimes, to pull the wax,silicone from the surface. Now consider that the Iso. Alcohol you bought is aprox. 70% water, OOOPS !
I created Rapid Prep to be a cleaner that will insure getting the wax, grease,oil,silicone out.
But even The application fluids are designed to clean most residues (without leaving different ones), and provide a "adhesive receptive substrate".
Using a "CHEAP GROCERY STORE PAPER TOWELL" will make a big diff., there is no "chemical content" to enhance the paper to be more absorbant or lint free etc., so you get a CLEAN substrate with no residue from whats in the expencive paper towells.
I know lots of you will not apply vinyl wet (probably from some past poor experiance with soap/water deal)however, as many gallons as we sell each and every month for 16 years now, there are thousands of people taking advantage of WET applications, they have learned how to CLEAN and apply wet and get a strong bond in just a couple minutes, saving time and damaged film, as well as applying in temperatures (below freezing)that send a lot of applicators back to the shop.
Ok, fire away ! Roger
)
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Roger! Good to read you again. Roger, read the Avery rep's explanation. Roger, there is a definite reason for his reply and its based on Avery's lab results. Vary from that and the warrantee is void.
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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hey Jim..... the Avery I have used has mostly been black. I still have almost a whole roll and am not in the mood to get ****ed off by using it anymore. So it sits. And will continue to sit. It is not reflective.
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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So pierre, are you dismissing the "importance of correct cleaning"? He he he he he
I have read every responce here, it sounds like a condenced version of the last 16 years of trouble shooting for my company, even at trade shows the same info., we have solved a multitude of problem applications for many many people, just by educating them on cleaning regardless of weather they chose to wet apply.
Btw, Rapid Tac II is the STUFF when it comes to REFLECTIVE, it flashes much faster then Rapid Tac, therefore won't soak in and cause de-lamination.
You guys should try it, heck you should try it all !!
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Ok. I want 50 gallons of each and bill it to Cheryl.
heh..........
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Thanks for the responses Roger. I was kinda thinking along the same lines. I have a friend who has been doing vinyl since they made it out of wood and he still uses soap and water, and seems reluctant to learn new things figuring he has done it so long, he has nothing to learn. I read in a Vinyl Graphics book by Larry Mitchell that some folks with 15 years experience actually have only 1 year experience repeated 15 times.
I am still kinda new to this and am trying to learn as much as I can. I am also reluctant to try things, (short cuts), that are not "by the book". I use Rapid Prep and Rapid Tac even when chided by supposed experienced installers that all you need is alcohol and soap/water. I may over clean, but I don't want any unknowns to come into the installation to haunt me down the road.
I read the appendix to the Avery "Place Rite" repositional adhesive and wondered how many people actually followed the directions "by the book", like the part about keeping the installation at room temperature for 24 hours before placing the signage in the field. Or the part about waiting 30 minutes before removing the pre-mask. These seem like awful extreme directions to follow but if you don't and the install fails, is it the products fault?
I have not earned the right to suggest to anyone on this board how to do anything but I know from my own experiences with other products that when something goes wrong, I try to first look at myself and see if I did something wrong. The more sure of myself I am, the harder this is for me to do.
I recieved an email from Tim Doyle who was anxious to resolve this issue. I took the new roll and folded the adhesive toward itself. It won't even bond to itself! Tim tells me that market demanded a less agressive adhesive, and it is being phased out. Lucky me, I got some, and he is sending replacement materials directly to me...Thanks Tim!
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3489 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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Rick, which one was it? Was it the "Place Rite"? The have 9 different kinds of reflective. The NV-1400 and NV-1500 are the PlaceRite - Repositionable. Then there is; NV-1300 vinyl Permanent 7 year NV-1200 vinyl Removable 5 year NV-1100 vinyl Permanent 4 year NV-400 polyester Removable 2 year NV-300 polyester Permanent 2 year NV-200 urethane Permanent 2 year NV-911-EVG vinyl Permanent 3 year
posted
Tim has also called and emailed me. We haven’t actually spoken on the phone, although we have played an extended set of telephone tennis. I guess it is now my serve, since he double faulted this morning--I was out both times he called. I am willing to listen, I know Avery did not get to be where they are by making garbage. I will, however, relate my experience with Avery manufactured materials below:
I had new (to me–more on this later) high performance cast black and burgundy peel off a sign on the way to the jobsite. This was on a panel painted, prepped and applied like countless others over the years. The black would not even stick to itself. The burgundy barely would. I had noticed a solvent smell when we opened the box of black. This material was GMI Ultraweed, manufactured by Avery. I bought the rolls on special from a supplier that was getting out of the business of stocking vinyl. At the time, I did not know there was a shelf life on vinyl. I have never bought “special” vinyl since–I don’t want something that is a time bomb waiting to go off. Also, I have not used since any more of the 50 yard rolls of GMI Ultraweed I bought from that supplier. I just do not trust them.
I called the four major manufacturers to ask about the shelf life issue. Avery, Fasson and Calon all said one year. Everyone told me a different reason why material that is supposed to last 7 years in the sun will only last one year on a climate controlled shelf. Avery told me the plasticizers would migrate, causing adhesion problems. I forget what Fasson and Calon said. 3M told me the shelf life was two years and said the reason for that was they just didn’t want to be responsible for it longer than that.
About the same time, I did graphics on a number of vehicles for a radio station. 3M had just come up with a huge price increase on their reflectives, so I purchased several rolls of Avery reflective, the highest grade my supplier had (I do not know if it was A-8, A-7 or AK-47, the back of the liner does not say). A few days later, the customer told me the letters were falling off. I asked if perhaps a corner was peeling. He said: “No! They are falling off!” I went to his office. The letters had delaminated, leaving adhesive only on the substrate.
Much of the lettering was applied to large clear Mylar graphic panels we had screen printed with a complex logo and adhered to the sides of the remote studios and trucks that pulled them. The letters were up to 30" height and we applied those wet, squeegeeing out the water with glass squeegees. There was also lettering, up to 12" height, applied to the trucks and studios that was applied dry, both to smaller size Mylar panels and other lettering directly to the painted surface of the vehicles. The same delamination occurred on them, eliminating wet application as the reason for the failure. This was obviously bad vinyl.
Avery replaced the material, however, I was out the labor and the egg on my face wasn’t cooked the way I usually order my breakfast. I had the same problems with the replacement and asked for a refund so I could buy a material I trusted. No refund was given, but more replacement material was sent. I did not use it and spent hundreds of additional dollars out of my pocket to buy Calon reflective, which I have fallen in love with–it is so much more conformable and flexible than either Avery or 3M.
I tried the replacement film on some temporary Coroplast signs a while back. The new material is even more temporary than the Coroplast, for it, in some cases, delaminated as it was applied. The adhesive stuck to the background and the letter remained on the transfer tape. The replacement reflective Avery sent to me has since developed an oily, greasy feel.
There are some areas where I think the manufacturers can help to minimize future problems. For one thing, if shelf life is an issue, they should absolutely proscribe suppliers from selling out of date material. I actually have some material (unknown manufacturer) that has been on the shelf here almost 20 years (obviously not a fast moving color), it has not shrunk and still has very aggressive adhesive that sticks well to what things I have tried putting it on, although I would not use it on a paying job at this point. Check with me in the year 2023 and I’ll give you the 40 year update. There will still be some of it left.
Additionally, if wet applications are verboten, the information sheet should be more strongly worded. I have seen tech sheets that read: “Wet applications not recommended”, possibly implying that the installation would just be more difficult to do wet. A person with (as Larry Mitchell might say) 15 years’ experience or 1 year’s experience 15 times over might think, “I know how to do a wet app” and move blithely ahead, not realizing he is creating a future problem for himself that may also give the manufacturer a perhaps undeserved black eye. If water creating Aluminum oxide is a serious risk, the tech sheet should spell that out clearly and unambiguously. Big “WARNING!” lettering comes to mind. I know, if I was aware of the Aluminum oxide issue, I would never have tried a wet app on reflective. I have emailed Calon to get their take on the wet application issue with their reflective.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5092 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Well this thread got far away from the root cause even though its been spelled out a couple of times..
quote:Prep should not be an issue
theres not a person here who would recommend painting over an improperly cleaned surface,yet its the fault of everything but sunspots one brand of vinyl stuck more aggressively over what ever was on the surface?
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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I totally agree that proper prior preparation prevents pitifully poor performance. However, when I have a material that won’t adhere at all to any substrate, the problem is with the material, unless substrate preparation also involves pre applying adhesive to it as well. When materials fall apart during normal application, the problem is with the material. Anyone who does not believe I have defective vinyl here is WELCOME to buy it at half price and use it on their customers. Please let me know who you sell it to so that I can pick up their business in the future.
I will take my lumps for mistakes made in application (part, though not all, of the reflective installation was wet), however, I definitely did receive flawed product. Whether it was caused by improper storage by the supplier or it was a formulation issue with the manufacturing, I do not know. What I do know is, that no matter how anyone on this BullBoard preps or applies it, this particular material will fail.
Avery is trying to correct this. I will allow them the opportunity to win me back. I appreciate it when my customers allow me to correct my mistakes and salvage my reputation, I will grant Avery the same privilege.
[ May 28, 2003, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: David Harding ]
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5092 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Geez, David. You sure do look like your brother.
After some 20+ years with Avery, I have yet to experience one single failure. Go figger...............
k31
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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