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Just got in from hell week at the track here and something has been bugging me since Shep and I were discussing the topic of freehand layout. It seems that we decided that we were not only working "BC" style(before computers) but "BP" style(before projectors). This is basically the practice of drawing your layout directly on the substrate and or surface and then painting it without the use of patterns. Often as not it means a helluva lot of math on the spot scaling the layout and then drawing directly on the surface ,in this case a wall. Back in my days as a traveling billboard painter I would get premium work orders and treatment because I had the skill to jump in the truck and drive across a couple of states and do the job without the worry of making patterns. Alot of my peers did the same type work, but had to take the time to make patterns with the use of a projector and tracing the projections onto patterns and then using them for proper layout. Back in those days I hated having to deal with large paper patterns 60' up in the air on a swing stage and then deal with the dust and mess from the charcoal and or chaulk used to transfer them to the sign. I was lucky in that I found a couple of old wall men who took the time to teach me freehand layout so I didn't have to deal with all that paper and dust. My question here is how many of you still do this on a regular basis? As CJ put it one day at the track helping me,...I'm not all that good with computer design but I still do pencil REAL GOOD! I often get that deer in the headlites look from sign people when I talk about freehand layout and was just wondering are there many of us still left who actually avoid the electrical devices and as CJ put it and just do pencil?
posted
On a regular basis....NO. On occassion...YES.
I still enjoy folding the papeer and using the fold lines as a grid to transpose onto the wall.
I have become computer dependant, and when confronted with doing it the old way, it's like a wonderful sport...or going camping...or cooking over the campfire, full of memories.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I don't do it on a regular basis, but the ability is still there. I've always been sort of a gadget and electronics freak, so I really enjoy the computer end of it, but I also enjoy the hand layout on occasion. It's sort of like meeting an old acquaintance again.
-------------------- Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Echoing Rixax comments, yes, occasionally. Recently the computer system here was down for just over a week, during which I had several signs to do with the method Timi describes - the best term I have heard is "setting out by eye".
Even with the puter to make patterns for carved or hand-lettered jobs, I still frequently do a "minimalist" perforation, just enough to mark my top and bottom lines and my letter spacing. Things like serifs, crossbars (on an E, A or H) don't get perforated - I know where they belong, and create them "freehand" as I letter.
Back when I lettered a lot of phone and USDOT numbers on trucks with a quick brush-stroke casual(not to be confused with the hideous "font" of the same name) I rarely used a pattern, just a few quick stabilo marks to provide a reference.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I just did a freehand layout this week. I was inspired by an article in a recent SignCraft by Rob Cooper who now lives in Thailand and owns no computer or projector. It was very satisfying to do. The odd thing is, the skill is not only still there, I think it has improved. Maybe because during these past years of doing computer layouts my visual perception (of layout) is gradually getting better regardless of the fact that I'm not using my hands as much. My eyesight, that's another story
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1052 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I guess it depends on the way you were brought up and your workload. Patterns were something that you would use to save time, like on repeats. Two or more trucks or something on that nature. I worked in a couple of production commercial shops before going on my own. At one of them we did a lot of wall work, probably 60% of the business was walls, the rest big construction site signs. We almost never used a pattern. I learned to layout with a yardstick and charcoal on a wall. For a truck door a stabillo. Sure we would resort to the projector for something really complicated or super tight, but as long as we had a decent piece of artwork, we just headed out to the wall, snapped some lines and had at it. When I first started out on my own I was doing some sub contract work for a few other shops. I can remember going to one shop one day and given a work order to do a wall. The other guy that was subcontracting got one too. I grabbed some paint and headed out to do my wall, he started on making patterns. I got back to the shop that afternoon , the other guy arrived right after me. He said he got to the jobsite but couldn't manage the patterns in the wind and was gonna have to go back the next day, I was done with mine. I don't do nearly as much lettering as I used to and for awhile I too was getting computer dependent. The last few signs I did were done with a direct layout, they looked great and felt even better There are a lot of sign painters out there who work only from patterns. One of the great things about live meets is getting to rub elbows and work with guys like you , Monte, Roy Frisby and others who work "on the fly". Monte is the true master of the "minimalist" layout.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Same here. I,ve done a lot of freehand signs and walls. An old sign artist, Clair Schultz, taught me the mathematical method used in the 30's for laying letters out on a wall. Tacking the length of the area for the line of copy, divide it by the number of characters with m and w one and a half measurement and I a half measurement and space between words equal to one character. making the marks with a yardstick and good alphabet knowledge, one can quickly pencil in each letter. On large window splashes, I find with this method with only the quick marks, I can roll the letter forms quickly without pencil. three years ago, I purchased a plotter, so I can't say I use the freehand layout all the time. But, i eagerly jump at the possibilty of a new project that be better served by hand layout than "rigid" computer plots.
-------------------- Tony Segale Segale Fine Art & Gold Leaf Sign Co Lodi, CA www.tonysegale.com
""and he took that golden hair and made a sweater for baby bear" Posts: 216 | From: Lodi,CA,USA | Registered: Feb 2000
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Like a football team practicing when there's no game, I occasionally do things "der old vway" just to stay familiar. Sometimes I trace a pattern with the old paint thinner trick, cuz it's faster than drawing it all new. Sometimes I make a pattern for one line of copy so I can shift the pattern and make a shadow. I really like my electro-pounce, but the best perf-cloth I've ever had is a used billiard table cloth. This is an informative thread, thanks Timi. PS I want to help, so I'll "blow" one of my future dreams. I wanted to patend a new (to me) type of scaling ruler. you can make it yourself, pretty simple. start with a piece of plastic or acetate about 10" x 10". At one end, make a point near the edge, in the middle of that edge. on the opposite side, make 12 equally spaced marks. Use an exacto knife and make 12 lines from the point to the 12 marks. It will look like "sunrays". when you need to use it, you lay a paper across the rays, and carefully make yourself a "foot" devide into 12 parts. Sometimes, an archetecs scale doesn't conform to the artwork provided. I also use an engeneer's scale, and a metric ruler, but this gives me a fourth option. You still have to make the rest of the particular scale, besides the "foot" part, but it can occasionaly get you out of a bind. Jim.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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No disrespect meant to your mentor, but mine taught me that "M"s count 1-1/2 and "W"s count as 2 letter spaces. Space between words count as a letter space.
I sometimes miss the old ways but I do enjoy the new ways, too. It is good to have the ability to fall back on when the need arises.
Have a great one!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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On trucks, unless there are multiple, direct layout with a Stabilo.
Walls, I work off a scale drawing that I do on the puter and lay a grid right on the drawing before I print it.
The lo'Eyeball is still your best bet, because if it looks good....IT IS! Having started BC, I had to learn kerning by eye.
Window splashes...some top and bottom lines, and "stick letters" (it's a real bitch if you leave one out!!!!) Like cam stated, don't need detailed letters and serifs...we had to learn all the "alphabets" BC, and know where they went.
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I can't draw dogs or ponies fershcikt, but freehand layouts and eyeballin from a book is what got me started in this whole Sign Racket. Letterforms and me just seem to flow and it is the passion that still drives me today. I have a cousin by marriage way up northern Maine who spent some years in California around the early 50's doing billboards. To this day he wow's me, he use to do full color painted "sketches" for customers before making them signs! Painting a wall mural and billboards are like palleting a bush... he barely makes sweat. The freehandin walk up to it sketch and paint is always a blast and reminds me of my early years strugling at learn it on your own methods. What would I have done without "dingbats" and "flourishes" for last minute layout alterations back then!
Working from paterns always gave my work a more rigid feel and applying it was never as much fun. I see a lot of old signs sold as antique just because they are hand lettered, are we really that old now?
-------------------- "No excuses!.... No regrets!..."
posted
When I was in High School, I took all the art classes they had to offer. I found that one of my teachers was an ol`time letterhead. He showed me my first single stroke letter; Dom Casual. I would roll out butcher paper, draw some guide lines, and he would show me how to letter. He also taught me, Murry hill, Zaph Chancery, and Roman.
During my senior year, I got a job with our local newspaper; The Sanger Hearld, where I got my first experience in; Lithography, "paste up" layout, and press operation on a Rockwell Goss Community web press. It was full time; 6pm-6am, the night shift. I also learned how to drink there.
Yardstick layout, and scaling came naturally. I had been working with type for so long already, that I knew the "anatomy" of different type faces. The word got around, as it always does, and soon I found myself doing signs and graphics.
I didn't have to pay for college because the dean recuted me the moment the staff looked at my background. Needless to say, I was put to work in the public relations department, making their school newspaper, football programs, calenders... ...all the while holding a 6pm-6am press job.
I didn't get my plotter till 1995, so I *had* to do it the ole`way. Often, the plotter will sit for a whole week before it gets turned on. In the above posts I see methods like; yeardstick layout, letter scaling,("I" gets 1/2 space, "M" gets two) and pencil pounce patterns... all of which I had to figure out on my own.
Other method...
"Cube" or square scaling. Section off a small pencil drawing into small squares. Then on large panels, or walls; section them off, as you did the small drawing. Drop in the graphics, and vou la.(french for "there you go")
I do hand layouts about three or four times a week. I was better back then, and I know why; I had patience. I can't even watch paint dry now.
-------------------- Richard Bustamante Signs in the Pines www.signsinthepines.com Posts: 781 | From: Nevada City, California | Registered: Nov 1998
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just so you know, some of us "newtimers" try to work freehand too.
i did a 4x8 a few weeks back that was half pictoral and half words. the letterforms i did from a pounced pattern and the pictoral parts i did freehand. i'm not good enough with letterforms to be able to do them by hand -- yet. i seem to be getting better though, the more of them i paint.
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Not that I would want to but I can still "freeball" if need be. My term for free hand and eyeball. I can even draw perfectly straight lines without the use of a straight edge. Oh the tricks I have up my sleeve.
-------------------- Bob Stephens Skywatch Signs Zephyrhills, FL
posted
I am lucky enough to do only freehand work with a brush, the only time I use a template is for reverse glass gilding, so snap them chalk lines and away I go !!!
Brian.
-------------------- Brian the Brush brian the brush uk Yorkshire, UK www.brianthebrushuk.com Posts: 123 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2001
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I too do a lot of free hand layout. I lay out a lot of large jobs using tape measure and snap line. I have often used a (bastard scale) by just taking a drawing with no scale and giving it the length required, say 20 feet and folding it in half marking 1/2 as 10 feet folding it in half again mark as 5 feet fold in half again mark as 2 1/2 feet fold in half again mark as 1 1/4 feet and so on and so forth.
I use to work in a commercial sign shop that had three full time sign painters, and we all layed out everything with a yard stick and china markers, we never had paper patterns except for repeat jobs like, truck doors for fleets. I think that experience helped me alot to be able to lay out stuff free hand.
I like the challenge of very large scale stuff. Recently I did a 2000(+) square feet Mac tools logo on the asphalt at Gainesville Raceway where I have done a pretty fair amount of work over the years and all I used was a tape measure and snap line.
What bothers me alot is finding so many people working in sign shops who really know little or nothing about scaling a drawing. I often use 3/4 inch = 1 foot scale or multiples of that because its such an easy scale to work with, but I see so many drawings that are done in odd scale increments that are hard to work with, and people automatically start pulling out their triangular architectural rulers, trying to figure out what scale it is, and it just makes me shake my head and wonder why, when its just so much easier to just stay within a workable scale. I have at times taken a drawing with a a bad scale and enlarged or reduced it in a copy machine to get it back into 3/4 inch to the foot or multiple there of, because it just saves so much time (for me) to be able to read measurments quickly.
Well I'm rambling on too much, so I'll give someone else a chance. Good topic!
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I think that any lettering over 18" is usually easier drawn straight on ,window splashes usually look more punchy because they are laid out freehand ,corrugated sheeting ive not been able to do it any other way,anything with ribbed sides such as waste skips etc I tend to use a print out, measure the copy and divide it into where its going and multiply every measurement by that figure once youve got the positions of the overall letter its just a matter of getting the shapes and the weights right
A noticeably thicker stoke or thinner stroke -youve screwed up !
-------------------- Terry Bull Sign & Custom Grays Essex England
posted
I have had the chance to work for five years alongside Norman Loeppky, an oldtime sign painter who hardly used any other method than direct layout on signs or walls. It first puzzled me to watch him scribble numbers on a sheet of paper, and then go straight to work on the sign with a china marker and yardstick. No patterns or projector, just numbers to go with the design in his head. I was soon able to do it myself (and adjusting my "metric mind" to imperial), although never with the same speed. We'd work on two sides of a 4x8, one of us drawing upside down letters, then bring out the 1Shot and paint. One of the most useful tools were cardboard strips for different line values. Kerning was spacing, and fonts were letter styles. We were fast with this method, and looking back I can see some of the flaws in the layouts and a certain repetition of the same alphabets, but I never had as much fun doing signs before or after. When I took over the shop, I immediately added a computer and plotter, because I felt it was necessary to keep up and modernize, but I miss working the way we used to.
posted
I'm like you Lotti.......I miss the old ways. I still find myself saying 'letterstyle' and 'layouts'. Funny how our tools have changed. We used to use string......coins....cardboard. etc..For one company I had the whole alphabet cut out of cardboard...as they always wanted the same letterstyle on their paper banners.
As far as freehand.... I don't do it much anymore, but when I do....it is sure fun. Even still...when I see handpainted signs....I just love them. I like the 'not so perfect' look. In signs AND people!
Posts: 3729 | From: Seattle | Registered: Sep 1999
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I came to signmaking from architectural drafting. I came to drafting when I realized the need for a career over odd-jobs & choose this trade school skill due to my natural abilities in art & math.
I still remember in cub scouts, painting some kind of lettering on posterboard. Everyone esle grabbed paint, but I took a pencil, thought ahead to the number of lines & the cap heights I could use. After penciling in light guidelines, I worked from the center out putting dots to mark start & end points for each letter, attempting to achieve consistent letter widths & consistent spacing. It seemed like the rather obvious step necessary to avoid starting over. (squishing the last few letters, tolerating crooked lines or leaving half the page black seemed the obvious solution to everyone else.) I remember the scout leaders (actually den mothers back then, a step above babysitters)being impressed. I had long forgotten that memory untill I became a sign maker & recalled it one day.
As a draftsman, I once was shown how I could draw a 45 degree line next to a floor plan & all my measured distances from corner to window, (including trim, casing, & mullion widths)window to door, door to porch roof, overhang, post & footing etc down to the other corner could all be transfered with my t-square to points on the 45 degree line & then up from there with my triangle to layout an elevation drawing at the same scale on the other corner of that sheet. I quickly realized that if a 45 degree line could do that, by changing the degree of the angle I could alter the layout to any other scale that a different drawing may require.
I have never tired of the relationship between math & drawing.
posted
The SAME idea of yours about "knowing the basics" is your ansewer! I DO and always know how! I pity the New Comer not wanting to learn these methods. How does one make money,when the electric is off? How do I get my puter to climb the ladder?
-------------------- PKing is Pat King The Professor of SIGNOLOGY Posts: 3113 | From: Pompano Beach, FL. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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timi, great topic. I guess I can stop thinking about marketing the "new" scale ruler, cuz now I've got a big inventory of humble pie! If you ever decide to go snipe huntin', be sure to give me a call, OK? Jim.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I do whatever work best. I haven't used a pounce pattern in decades, Just never liked doing things that way. But I'm not afraid to use a projector where it is faster.
There are so many jobs where it is just so easy to sketch it out on the substrate and go for it. Most of my 'signpainting' falls into this category.
When I weld something up as an armature for my sculptures it is all freehand with only a sketch or idea to go by. No measurments and comples tools. 3D is much easier to do by eye.
On something complex like a mural it would be kinda silly to spend days laying out a mural or fiddling with patterns instead of minutes with a projector. I don't feel it is less creative, I would rather plan things where I am comfortable at my desk. When doing a 200 foot long lettering job high on a swing stage a few years ago I just drew it out as I went with a layout plan as a guide.
I'm not tied to my computer, or patterns or projector or even doing it all freehand. I like to do the job with whatever tools work best and ultimately help me achieve what I set out to do.
-dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Timi Man, ain't done that work in years! Even when we were painting 100-140 bulletins a year it was mostly in the shop, projectors and scissors lifts! But one of my favorites to grid & go was the old Cutty Sark boards. You've probably done a few of those over the years, quick grid and layout: they were fun!
-------------------- Bill Dirkes Cornhole Art LLC Bellevue, Ky. Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. Posts: 591 | From: Bellevue,Ky. US | Registered: Aug 1999
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I'm with Rix. Regularly no. If required yes. When I was doing my apprenticeship (as in your past as I understand it) we used to do a lot of tobacco billboards. A thorough wash, 3 coats of red jam and chalklines snapped from a stage or scaffold. I don't recall using pounces because they would have been too unweildy with a 4' capital letter, but I do remember a lot of approximated scales being calculated onsite, roughed in serif letters marked out in chalk to be "tidied up as you go along" 36" rollers which were an absolute pain in the arse to clean. Lugging 2" angle iron plank brackets up countless stairs for the privilege of re-writing a sign mounted flush with the facade of a 5 storey building. Good times? Absolutely. Wanna do it again? Not unless you got a damn good reason not to prefabricate it in the shed and erect it onsite. Still do it on some jobs? Hell yes, to prove to myself that I can still do it. A pleasure remembering the fun stuff. David
-------------------- David Fisher D.A. & P.M. Fisher Services Brisbane Australia da_pmf@yahoo.com Trying out a new tag: "Parents are the bones on which children cut their teeth Peter Ustinov Posts: 1450 | From: Brisbane Queensland Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
As an old timer, direct layouts were the order of the day. I remember one time another sign man came to my shop and asked where I was hiding my patterns. Because he did everything that way, he figured everyone else did. The worst thing to happen was to forget your yardstick. My favorite method was the 1 inch equals 1 foot scale, couldn't be easier.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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I too started with a folded paper with width marks.I have a school opaque 5inch projecter.Depending on what application I want to use-and it varies.Havent done anything to big in a while so I will do a patern from my Roland.As long as I'm hand painting I'm happy.
-------------------- Randall Campbell Randy's Graphics, 420 Fairfield N. Hamilton Ontario Canada Posts: 2857 | From: Hamilton Ontario Canada | Registered: Jan 2002
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I was taught using the yardstick and charcoal or pencil for layouts.When i first was learning the emphasis was on correct letter construction.So you spent more time sketching the letters. As you got better the less time sketching letters and more time spent on a good layout.
I do feel knowing the basics of this helps a great deal in other aspects of the trade.
I was taught the letter "O" is the space in between words.
-------------------- Robert Carney Fergus, Ontario Posts: 131 | From: Canada | Registered: Mar 2001
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I used to draw my scale small enough to tape down on the side of my "lucky" yardstick. Usually the stuff was so big, consolodating what all ya had to tote up a ladder was the way to go. I think that jumping back down the ladder because the sketch blew away got a little old LOL. If I had a lot of lines of copy I used to just draw out the main line and eyeball where the rest was inserted. Good times, good times!
Another tip, if you knew what the widths of your strokes were, you could mark the measuring device for thick and thin strokes and blow across that wall like a string during tornado season. Sometimes I would have to use a piece of scrap metal or wood to measure with because my yardstick was broken or stolen when I wasn't paying attention. There's always a way to get things done. I miss the challenge of creating our own tools and trying to pull it off in a "cool" manner.
When you get to the point that you realize TIME = MONEY, you'd be surprised what kind of little tips and tricks you could pull out of your butt on the fly!
Some of us just like feeling alive! I don't get that from sitting in an office.
I'd feel totally nekkid without a good ole Number 2 behind my ear or a ladder rung dug into my arches LOL.
posted
I tell you what was really fun. Laying out windows on the outside and lettering from the inside. It would drive people crazy when they watched me. How in the heck do you letter backwards. I still occasionally do freehand layouts, but not near enough.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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I, too, remember when the main layout tool was the yardstick. I always liked the scale 1-1/2"=1'. Because the eighth marks on the yardstick became inches.
Brad in Kansas
-------------------- Brad Ferguson See More Signs 7931 Wornall Rd Kansas City, MO 64111 signbrad@yahoo.com 816-739-7316 Posts: 1230 | From: Kansas City, MO, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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