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Have made numbers for dirt bikes from regular cast and calendar vinyl 2 and 3 mil thick. They last for a while but not long. The ones I have seen in bike shops are advertised on the package as being 12 mil thick, can't find vinyl this thick anywhere. Called my suppliers, have called Avery, Mac Tac and others, the thickest I can find is 4 mil. Done searches on the Internet, no good. Someone said try putting three sheets of vinyl together, the ones I have are not layered Does anyone have any ideas.
-------------------- George Verbanic Carved in Stone Gibsonia, PA gverbanic@comcast.net Posts: 5 | From: Gibsonia PA USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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The best film I've seen so far for this is 3M Scotch Hi Strength Adhesive ( 14 mil I believe) and 3M VHB.
I know others ae out there, but I'm not exactly sure of the specs. Both links below not only make numbers, letters etc, but will print numbers directly on the colored number plate backgrounds. That is the hot ticket. www.graphicmx.com www.decalworks.com
[ September 11, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Bailey ]
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Jeff: You're right about that 3M "VHB"...There is nothing like it! (In fact you can replace mechanical fasters like rivets with this stuff in the right kinds of structures)
If you want a pretty-much indestructible decal, get someone to sub-surface print some LexEDGE on a Gerber EDGE. For adhesive, I would recommend 3M laminating adhesive. Choosing the correct product for the application is very important.
[ September 11, 2002, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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We use LexedgeII subsurface printed with 3M adhesive and it stands up pretty well - certainly longer than vinyl. At least they can get a few motos out of them.
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The link that Jon posted above will give you the bonding ratings of various adhesives to metals, plastics, and LSE plastics. Look for ones that have high bond strength on plastics and LSE plastics. 467 or 468 are okay for regular plastics, but 9471 (and others) are better for LSE (low surface energy) plastics.
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somebody posted on here i think...you can take a butane torch to that type of plastic, and watch it heat up, and it will flash off the chemicals in the plastic that will not let the vinyl stick. after youve done this ...its hard to get the viyl off.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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DO NOT use a torch on poly ethelene plastic for motorcycles. You may make it brittle for the rider, and also risk discoloring it. Not to mention the risk involved with the most common part of the bike for graphics, ( the fuel tank ) Sorry OP, I'm an avid rider, ( I've been on two wheels for about 26 of my 28 years) and from experience I know what it's like to put motorcycle plastic through some torture. The plastic the major motorcycle manufacturers are using is formulated to be very resilient, and survive some pretty extreme abuse without breaking. In the late 80's Kawasaki had a reputation for having brittle plastic ( turned out to be due to the green dye in the formula) they resolved it quickly. Remember, the plastic number plates for bikes run anywhere from $20 to $50 bucks USD each. Now throw in a $200 fuel tank, $40 worth of fenders, etc.. It get's expensive fast. As far as decals sticking to this plastic, I've never had a problem, as long as the plastic is clean. Remember, people use spray silicone, WD-40, and even household floor wax to make their bikes shine, and keep the mud from sticking. Rapid Prep, and or Rapid Tac/Rapid Tac II cleans the plastic very well. If you use Prep, I'd recomend hitting it again with Tac/TacII before installing decals. Also I'd use TacII if you choose to apply wet to the plastic. If you can laminate your work then you should be fine. If your shop doesn't have that capability, then I'd entrust one of the established motorcycle graphic companies. They make some really high quality graphic kits, and in allot of cases make matching seat covers etc..
Jon, do your stores carry the thick 3m materials? ( 12-14 mil)?
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Hey OP! I miss butting heads with you...and it won't surprize you to learn that I'm with Jeff on this one...
I realize that your ingenuity has saved you money over the years and that you are a very handy, very creative guy: but the danger in using "Kitchen Chemistry" is that -- although you might have what very much appears to be a solution -- you can cause other problems down the line. (ie. Jeff's example of the plastic becoming embrittled)
You wouldn't believe the amount of time 3M spends exploring all of the "what ifs" (and all of the lab and field testing that goes on) before their products come to market. If they have a solution to offer, it is a safe bet that it will work...and work well for the full life cycle of the finished product. Why let a $20 decal ruin a more expensive part?
Jeff: I couldn't possibly stock everything that 3M has to offer...and we manage our inventories based on historical and forecast demand. All of that to say that if ND GRAPHICS doesn't stock the products, we can still supply in expedited fashion - anywhere within the bounds of Canada. (and thanks for asking).
[ September 13, 2002, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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In our experience it hasn't been that the vinyl doesn't stick to the number plates, it's that it gets easily scraped off when the bike is skidding down the track on its side. And then the pressure washer finishes the job.
Lexan will stand up to more of this torture than regular vinyl will, but the right kind of spill will still rip it up. I haven't yet tried the Convex vinyl, but I plan to check it out. We sponsor a local motocross rider and the vinyl numbers were kaput after pretty much every event. I didn't think Lexan would conform well enough to the compound curves, but the particular numbers we needed do, and they're lasting very well.
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now if you think i would try that on a GAS TANK, your dumber then me!!!!! ive done a few of these but i was saying you can do the torch thing to the front number plate and small side covers....sheeesh!!!!! i think what the original thing they used a torch on was baseball helmets.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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What would happen if you embrittled the plastic shell of a baseball helmet (with your torch) and the other team's pitcher "beaned" your best power hitter while trying to push him back from the plate?
-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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heheh.. OP, If you come near my bikes with a torch I'm loading bullets.. lol. seriously though.. Front number plates have to stand up to rock roost, crashes, etc, as do the side plates. You're doing your customer wrong if you do anything that will shorten the plastics life. I've never had a problem getting anything to stick to moto plastic, and as far as I've always understood, there is nothing in the plastic that would inhibit a good adhesion (exception being what ever the owner may have used on it) A good cleaning, and using the right film is the key here. I wouldn't use sign vinyl on any bike. It is WAY TOO THIN. I'd stay with films that are al least 10 mil for durability. I have never had anything come off using a pressure washer, ( even had a bike come off of a trailer at 40 mph and not tear off the graphics. In fact, because the graphic was 14 mil, it protected the plastic beneath it from damage.)
All the graphics were applied with Rapid Tac II, ( heck, they survived some oregon sand testing too.. haha.
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote: ( even had a bike come off of a trailer at 40 mph and not tear off the graphics. In fact, because the graphic was 14 mil, it protected the plastic beneath it from damage.)
Jeff, was that some kind of Evel Kinevel stunt, or did you forget your tie-downs
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Wow Didn't know it was this involved. Me and my son ride dirt bikes and we made our own numbers from vinyl but they don't last very long. Like it was said if they don't get ripped off they start peeling off in short time. I always use Rapid Tac, Jeff and I love the stuff, I couldn't do vinyl without it. Talked to Doug Goodloe from graphicms.com and we are going to try some of his products first. They are a thick vinyl (6mil-10 mil) but he told me it only comes in white, so you have to Edge it or use your vinly on it then laminate it. So if you want black numbers and you do not have an edge you cover the white 10 mil convex with black and then run it thru the plotter.
Thanks for all the help
Will let you know
-------------------- George Verbanic Carved in Stone Gibsonia, PA gverbanic@comcast.net Posts: 5 | From: Gibsonia PA USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doug, tie down hook on my friends trailer broke at the weld. His bike was fine ( Of course...lol) and mine made the most gut wrenching heart sinking screech down the road I've ever heard! George, I'm just curious, Why don't you go to your local motorcycle dealership and purchase some numbers? They should carry a variety of sizes and styles ( N-Style, Dirt Digits, Factory FX, etc... ) I still personally like what SoCal Decal, andf Graphic MX can do with actually printing the numbers on the number plate backgrounds. It just looks cleaner.
Good luck! Keep it rubber side down ( unless your last name is Metzger! .... Ask your kids.. lol)
-------------------- Jeff Bailey Rapid Tac Inc. Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 231 | From: Grants Pass, Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Just found your bulletin board and thought I'd offer any advice to all of you trying to do motorcycle graphics. We at Graphic MX, have tried numerous vinyls and have finally settled on materials that last as well as apply well. Please email me info@graphicmx.com if I can help.
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