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Author Topic: Today's Customers ???
Gerald Barlow
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Member # 3477

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I really need your input on this subject. I have run into this on several occasions and credited it to unusual people...but maybe not.
I went on a sales call Tuesday. Hair salon, one stylist. Needed a window lettered (probably vinyl. Two words, "American Male, Hair Salon".
There was/is a sign next to the window between it and the door/entrance. The sign was in all caps, souvenir bold, two colors. Name, phone, services...four lines. All lines the same hight and weight, the colors only differentiating the info. I'm sorry for the set-up but here's the question: I asked if she didn't want something more modern. She said that she wanted the lettering to be clean and easily readable. I said that I would suggest doing it a little differently. I would do the title in Caps/lc to improve readability and the hair- in all caps, spaced a little wide to set it off from the title.
She said that she wanted it all caps and straight across the window and all black.
So I shared some of my 35 years experiance. She didn't say anything more and I said that I would send a "sketch" to her to see the comparison. I got her e-mail and left.
I sent the drawing about a half hour later. I have not heard back from her. A friend who was the reason I went to her said that he didn't think she wanted any advise on the sign. He said her mind was pretty made up.

Is our place in the food chain changing? I thought we used our experience to help the customer get a sign that would help them succeed.
I am getting (this is not my first experience like this.) the feeling that this newer generation thinks/ feels empowered by software and thinks their choices are an extension of some god-like power and that they are not to be challenged by time-worn rules.
Any comments? Any answers on new approaches? Want to buy a business, cheap?

Jer

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Gerald Barlow
Artworx
Turlock, CA

95380
artworx@bigvalley.net

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Kissymatina
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I had a customer insist their main identity sign on a 65 mph highway be done in Papyrus. I couldn't change their mind so finally I sent them the layout in papyrus & the font I chose. I had them print it out, hang it on the wall & walk across the room. They called me back 10 minutes later telling me I was right. While it's frustrating, we also have to realize not everyone can visualize like we can.

If that doesn't work, do the sign, don't bother taking a pict or putting a bug on it & cash the check.

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Chris Welker
Wildfire Signs
Indiana, Pa

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Tim Barrow
Deceased


Member # 576

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Chris is right,...you can lead a horse(client) to water but you can't always make them drink it,....offer up your best advice but if they don't take that should never be a reason to refuse their work or the compensation for services rendered,...take the job if you can get it and collect the money,...repeat process as often as possible,...

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fly low...timi/NC is,
Tim Barrow
Barrow Art Signs
Winston-Salem,NC

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Brian Scargill
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Hi Guys,

I beg to differ !!
I've been a traditional signwriter for over 40 years and have set a high bench mark on the quality of the work I do, its the main reason that I'm still in business.
As an apprentice I was always told to do the best work I could, I set my standards high and always offer that quality to my customers. Sure I get guys who want me to produce inferior layouts but I tell them the truth and walk away from the job with my reputation in tact.My reputation keeps my phone ringing and lets me sleep soundly at night.

Brian.

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Brian the Brush
brian the brush uk
Yorkshire, UK
www.brianthebrushuk.com

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Ricardo Davila
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Member # 3854

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Gerald,

I just looked at your website and I have to say that you do excellent work....You should be very proud of your work.

So, if this customer does not want to follow your advise and you, really, need the money, just do it like he or she says, take their money and, by all means, never admit, to your peers, that you did that sign........and, much less, do not include that project in your portfolio.

The way I see it is that you have two options....First option: Do it and take the money.....Second option: Be polite with the customer and walk away from doing something that you dislike.

I have seen this happen ( to me ) many times, throughout over 47 years in the sign trade, as a sign painter, and it has taught me that there is not much you can do to change the mind of a paying customer, when they are set on what they want.

Unfortunately, those are obstacles that we will, always, find while we are in this trade, no matter how much knowledge or experience we have of our skills in this trade.

Don't feel bad about it.....it happens to all of us.

RD

[ August 14, 2014, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo Davila ]

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Ricardo Davila
Showroom Window Advertising
P.O. Box 1376
Edmond, Oklahoma 73083

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Craig Sjoquist
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Well written & said Ricardo

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Craig Sjoquist
http://www.592sign.net
3220 N.O.B.T
Orlando Fl. 407-592-7446 vikinwolf@gmail.com

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Gerald Barlow
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While I sincerely appreciate your collective atta-boys...you miss my point. How do we help people who think that because of the computer, that their choices are best, in the face of history. How do we keep America from looking like its turning into a garage sale?

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Gerald Barlow
Artworx
Turlock, CA

95380
artworx@bigvalley.net

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Ricardo Davila
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Gerald,

Simple answer.....probably the one that you do not want to read......WE CAN'T. No matter how hard we try.......We are sign painters, not crusaders !

Sorry, but I, respectfully, suggest that you face reality and accept it and continue doing the nice work that you do......Those who like your work, will come looking for you.....Trust me on this.

RD

[ August 14, 2014, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo Davila ]

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Ricardo Davila
Showroom Window Advertising
P.O. Box 1376
Edmond, Oklahoma 73083

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Glenn Taylor
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Speaking from the heart....

As I see it, the problem isn't the client or their perceptions of computers. We are.

In most cases it is because we don't do a very good job of building credibility in the eyes of the public.

People like Mike Jackson, Dan Antonelli and Dan Sawatzky have already shown us how to do it time and time again. We hear what they say, but do we listen and follow through?

In Gerald's case, the problem is a lack of credibility in the eyes of the client. Remember, the client didn't seek Gerald out because of his portfolio or reputation. She didn't know who Gerald was other than he's a signmaker and "signmakers are a dime a dozen" these days.

I would have handled the situation differently.

Never say anything that can be perceived as negative about what the client is asking for. You risk bruising an ego.

Smile and simply give them a quote on what they are asking for no matter how ugly and ineffective it is. Then use the 3-tier pricing method that Mike Jackson has promoted frequently over the years.

In this case, I'd quote what they ask for then offer two more effective alternatives. This is where I've learned how to upsell without much effort (thank you Butch Anton). The majority of the time, the client will go with one of my options, usually the median priced one that only cost a few dollars more.

If the client is still set on ugly and ineffective, fine. A job is a job. Pride only makes it tougher to put food on the table and can prevent us from getting a better project down the road. You smile and give the best possible service you can....always. The goal is to win the client over as you work to build credibility in their eyes. The more credible you are, the easier it becomes to sell the kinds of jobs you want to do.

To Gerald's comment, "I thought we used our experience to help the customer get a sign that would help them succeed", I think that is the wrong way to look at it. Officially, I have 36 years of experience. That has nothing to do with how good I may be but rather it only shows how stable and trustworthy I may be for the long term.

A local sign shop in my town has 45 years of experience.

All of it ugly.

Some of the least experienced people I know do a far better job than some I know who have decades' worth.

What matters is "today". Not how long you've been doing it.

How good are you at promoting your services...today.

How credible are you...today.

How effective a communicator are you...today.

Did you kill them with service...today.

At the same time, we have to accept that we aren't always going to get the job. Sometimes things simply don't mesh. Just move on and forget about it. It isn't worth the stress.

Gerald, to your question, "How do we help people who think that because of the computer, that their choices are best, in the face of history. How do we keep America from looking like its turning into a garage sale?"

IMHO, the first step is to be the example.

Which leads to the second, work on building your credibility. This can mean getting involved in the community, thereby promoting you (and your services/brand). It can mean doing the kind of work no one else is doing. It can mean developing a reputation as a problem solver. It can mean learning how to sell without looking like you are. It can mean learning how to speak well on the telephone.

And third, know your limits and accept them. Personally speaking, one of my biggest problems is taking on more than I can handle and not realizing it until it's too late.

And finally, learn how to bring into balance steps 1, 2 and 3. That's the hard part. I struggle with it every day. Some days I succeed. Some days I fall flat on my face. But I don't quit.

[ August 14, 2014, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]

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BlueDog Graphics
Wilson, NC

www.BlueDogUSA.com

Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.

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Dan Sawatzky
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For every ten people who come up our driveway nine will go away with nothing. That's a 10% close rate (most likely less than that in reality) I am perfectly OK with that.

I greet everyone the same politeness and courtesy.

Since we only do dimensional signs those who want something flat are quickly eliminated. I happily refer them to a friend in town who does good work.

A few who come up the drive have a design in hand and don't want me to change a thing. They do not respect my design abilities nor want my input. No problem - they are not my customer. These folks I happily send to someone else who does that kind of work. No hard feelings.

Some people are on a tight budget (for whatever reason) and don't want to pay for the type of work we do. I can't help them either. While I love my work I am not prepared to work for free or even a discount.

Others are in a hurry and we are often booked well into the future (currently 2016) so these folks too are referred to someone else I know who does this kind of work.

The customers I work for want the type of work we do and want me to design it for them. They respect my design abilities and hard earned reputation. These folks are prepared to pay for the design up front and they understand good ideas don't come cheap. On acceptance of the design they are also prepared to lay down a deposit to get their place in our work cue. The customers we work for are prepared to wait for their turn.

I would never do a job that I would not proudly sign my name to. I never have. I can't afford to.

We are known tomorrow for the kind of work we do today.

Simple.

-grampa dan

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Dan Sawatzky
Imagination Corporation
Yarrow, British Columbia
dan@imaginationcorporation.com
http://www.imaginationcorporation.com

Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!!

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Ricardo Davila
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Glenn,

Thank God that you are just referring to "the sign makers"......Those, "who are a dime a dozen", as you say......in your dissertation about how Gerald should have approached his customer.

My humble opinion, about your approach to Gerald's request, Glenn, is that he would have been better served, if you had addressed to him, in private, by means of a written, personal, e-mail, instead of, practically, sweeping the floor with him, in this forum with your diatribe.

Maybe, this is a very good example of why so many good people have stopped coming to Letterville.


RD

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Ricardo Davila
Showroom Window Advertising
P.O. Box 1376
Edmond, Oklahoma 73083

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Rusty Bradley
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Glenn...looks like you've been a naughty boy.

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Rusty Bradley
Bradley Sign Studio
100 Creekview Road
Summertown, Tn. 38483

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Pam Eddy
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Dan, I have been making changes in the way I handle customers and business since we met at Indiana Rob's ( Jones ) last summer. I am seeing that instead of loosing customers, I am gaining more of the type of customers I want. I still need to work on several areas, but it helps to be reminded and get the re enforcements from your advice that you post here at Letterville.

Glenn, I appreciate your comments also. You and Dan always make me think a little deeper about what I am doing and how I am doing it.

I understand where you are coming from Gerald and feel the same way a lot of times. Unfortunately, many of today's customers do not realize they are getting more than just a sign from a professional sign maker, they are getting the skills to do an effective design. The customer has no idea how complex a good layout can be when using all the correct design elements and proper color theory.

I understand everyone's reply on this topic. I have done the jobs I didn't like and accepted the payment and I have refused to do certain things that I just know won't work. ex: black letters on glass when I know it will not show up.

Not every customer is the right fit so sometimes it's better to pass on a project and not feel bad about it.

Just my opinion.

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Pam Eddy
Niles, MI
ple@qtm.net

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Glenn Taylor
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There is always going to be someone eager to take offense where none is intended. Here is no different it would seem.

Ricardo, I'm sure Gerald can speak for himself if I offended him. My "diatribe" was not an attack on him nor intended as such. He asked a question and I answered it speaking from my heart. Anyone who knows me knows I'm rather blunt and straightforward. And regrettably, they also know I'm known for these long-winded posts. Brevity was never my strong suit. [Wink]

Since I have offended your sensibilities, I apologize. Perhaps the next time I consider saying anything here, I should run it by you first. I certainly wouldn't want to chase anyone away.

As to my "signmakers being a dime a dozen", I'm referring to client perceptions. Sadly, there are some signmakers who feed that perception. I recall a guy who came here years ago bragging about how cheap he was going to be and drive the local competition out of business. I've met a lot of people over the years with the same attitude.

My point is that if we want to change things, we have to start with ourselves. If people think that design & signs come from a computer, who's fault is that?

Is not part of our job to show the client that it isn't the tool, but the person wielding it? Whether we like it not, it is up to us to educate the client. It's not a fun job but that is the reality of it as I see it.

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BlueDog Graphics
Wilson, NC

www.BlueDogUSA.com

Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.

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Gerald Barlow
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Well what can you expect from a Blue Dog? Seriously folks...I'm not the least offended. Thank you,Ricardo but I don't need defending on this. I wanted your collective uptake and Glenn gave it. I lost my shop several years ago and exist now by the graces of a good friend (I'm inside his business buiding). I'm 73 and I don't expect to do signs forever. BUT...I have seen a tremendous change in the "average" customer in the last year. The expectations of the average customer don't include my design input. You're right, Glenn, that I need to find non challenging words to use rather than judge their choices. Hard for me. I taught high school for 13 years and I guess that "made" me want to teach and improve first in the conversation. I need to dampen it. Thanks for all your comments and help. I'll try to do better. Jer

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Gerald Barlow
Artworx
Turlock, CA

95380
artworx@bigvalley.net

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Ricardo Davila
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Member # 3854

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Glenn,

No apologies here.....I guess you have your style and I have mine. Mine is that, among other things, I have the tendency of saying what's in my mind. That's about the only explanation that I can give. What can I say?.....Nobody is perfect.

Gerald, I never doubted that you could take care of yourself.

So, let's forget the whole thing and, the three of us, let's have a great weekend.

RD

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Ricardo Davila
Showroom Window Advertising
P.O. Box 1376
Edmond, Oklahoma 73083

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Shirley Carron
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I like what Pam said, "Not every customer is the right fit" - so accept it and move on.

Just because I'm in business does not mean I have to take every job or client that walks through the door.

The one's that do see things my way become my clients; those who don't - I refer elsewhere.

My best work usually happens when the client allows me creative license.

Earlier this year a new business asked me to help out with their sign, which was too small for the storefront. They made it themselves. I knew they were on a tight budget and offered advice. " Make the sign look larger by adding to each side of it"

They took it upon themselves to add a cut out of a tomato and a garlic to each end of the sign, which made it look worse!Good advice - poorly executed!

So when they asked would I make a 'banner or scroll cut out' to add to the name of the sign. I told them, very politely, that I didn't want anyone thinking I had anything to do with the sign, that my reputation was on the line.

I offered to redo the whole sign and let them make installments (not good- but I took a chance).
I showed them it was affordable and a professional job could only benefit them.

So far he's made all his payments on time and I continue to get more work, which he pays for on completion.

Educating customers is always going to be an uphill battle.

I don't advertise. I'm not even in the phone book under signs.

My customers come to me by word of mouth and some of my repeat customers have been doing business with me for over 20+ years.

Do your best, treat people decent and remember, "Not all customers are a good fit".

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Shirley Carron
Black Sheep Designs
184 John St. N.
Arnprior,On.,Canada
shirleyc@magma.ca
613-623-7053

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Glenn Taylor
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 -

Gerald.... LOL! I know what you mean. I was a secondary education major before switching to pre-law. Hard habits. [Smile]

Thank you for taking my post the way it was intended.

I can't say I've seen a change in clients. To me it has been more of "same song, different verse." Today clients see the computer doing all the work. Yesterday it was only a matter of having the right brush.

I can only speak for myself, but what I found that needed to change was me. I needed to change how I view customers and my approach to them. Once that was accomplished, I found it easier to upsell to the kind of work I want to do and make more money.


Ricardo, no worries. In real life I'm a sweet and cuddly. [Smile]

[ August 15, 2014, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]

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BlueDog Graphics
Wilson, NC

www.BlueDogUSA.com

Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.

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Rusty Bradley
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Ricardo...I would believe everything Glenn says except the "sweet and cuddly" part.

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Rusty Bradley
Bradley Sign Studio
100 Creekview Road
Summertown, Tn. 38483

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Rick Sacks
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Ger,
The customer often knows what they like and very often wears the wrong clothes and has the wrong haircut and enjoys food from crappy restaurants. What I try to point out is that I'm not designing a sign for them, but for their customers. Sometimes it's wise to pick up and leave while your losses are minimal. Why do less than our best? We're not kids needing to buy all the stuff anymore. There are folks that will want to challenge your creativity and appreciate you. You certainly have the ability and the talent.

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The SignShop
Mendocino, California

http://www.mendosign.com

Making the simple complicated is commonplace;
making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus

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Dennis Kiernan
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Do any of you remember the Broadway producer David Merrick? He was big-time and one of his iron-clad ideas about billboards and posters for his shows was that the title had to be as big as possible, bold lettering, in RED, and stretch from one side to the other -- no margin at all. What the rest of the design was did not change the way the title had to look. He was one of our biggest clients, so we just accepted it and did them the way he wanted.
Who knows? Maybe he was right. He was certainly successful.

By that I'm not implying that the client is always right. In fact, they may usually be wrong, especially the younger ones.

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dennis kiernan
independent artist
san francisco, calif, usa

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George Perkins
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Educating the customer is too often like trying to teach a pig to dance. Things have changed so much in the sign business. Nowadays the customers doesn't need nor want the designers input after all they have a program at home.
I miss doing signs but I don't miss the customers of today. I worked a motorcycle rally this weekend pinstriping. "You're the expert" "what do you think,you're the artist", "you pick, you know what you are doing". just some of the things I heard. I had one guy want yellow on a red truck, I sold him on silver and charcoal to match a sticker on the truck, his wife hugged me. [Smile] You guys can have the "new" customers , I'll stick with the ones that respect my experience ( read that knowledge )

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George Perkins
Millington,TN.
goatwell@bigriver.net

"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"

www.perkinsartworks.com

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shon lenzo
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The customer will still blame you if it looks bad later, regardless...even if you did exactly what they demanded.

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Light and Shadow
Manzanita,Oregon
shonlenzo@hotmail.com

Posts: 286 | From: Manzanita,Oregon | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Alicia B. Jennings
Resident


Member # 1272

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Why don't go go in for a haircut. Make sure you get the person you had to deal with. Tell her you want your hair colored green for a sporting event and you want extensions as well. If she gives you any crap, go on talking, waste her time, then simply walk out and tell her you will find someone better. As you walk out tell her signs look stupid.

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Signs by Alicia Jennings (Mudflap Girl)
Tacoma, WA
Since 1987
Have Lipstick, will travel.

Posts: 3813 | From: Tacoma, WA. U.S.A. | Registered: Dec 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Roy Frisby
Resident


Member # 736

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I'm probably going to get hammered for this but here
is my way: I suggest they way I would do the job and if the client still persists with their ideas, I
add to the price, make the quote, do the job, take
their money and go.

I've put up with enough aggrevation in 43 years to last a lifetime.

If they are too stupid to know what their sign really looks like, well so-be-it.
Their money spends just like everyone else's

[ August 20, 2014, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Roy Frisby ]

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Frisby Signs, Inc.
El Dorado, Arkansas

Posts: 902 | From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA | Registered: Apr 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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