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Last week I inherited a bunch of brushes after the death of an old friend who's work I admired. He spent the past ten years using acrylics, so his quills were rather neglected. I washed out the hardened oil and re greased them. From there I spent the rest of the week lettering signs with John's tools. Some real nice, some better tossed. What I found was a peace that I've never felt working with computers and vinyl. I feel like I had a wonderful date night with my old love.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rick, I have gone back to the very basics since the first of the year. I learned the beginnings of sign painting between age 14 and 20. At that age we are more focused upon successfully doing than successfully learning and understanding. So, I have pulled out several old books on sign-painting and begun studying the basic strokes and Egyptian alphabet. I painted each of the basic strokes a hundred times or more on paper using the mahl stick (I learned hand over hand in my formative years). Then I hand draw each Egyptian character in proper proportion, about 60-80 times. Then I paint them using those practiced strokes before moving on to the next character. In my youth I did learn much, enough to get by, BUT now I am seeing and understanding the beauty of this solid letter, when before I viewed it as too plain. The understanding of the form is not the only benefit of this exercise. Eventually muscle memory will kick in and there is less fighting with the brush. It is like making peace with it and we enjoy a perfect dance. As I get older and have to slow down I wish to be in my best lettering form. I can see myself painting smaller signs for cabins and beach homes. Committing these letter proportions to memory by study but mostly repetition will get me closer to my ideal of turning on the computer less and less, relying upon my hands and eyes for the layout with fresh results. I am still in my process of becoming a sign-painter after nearly 40 years.
[ June 30, 2013, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Bob Sauls ]
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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175,000 hand painted windshields and thousands of showroom windows later, I must admit that without a vinyl machine and inventory of vinyl rolls, life is pretty good. There is still a need of us non-vinyl painters out there! ...Now if they could only load spellcheck into my quills and flats.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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If you are 62 years old, now....and, let's say, you started to paint windshields, when you were 22 years old, EVERY SINGLE DAY OF EACH YEAR , EVERY SINGLE YEAR, for 40 CONSECUTIVE YEARS, then, you would have been able to paint 175,000 windshields, to this date.
PERIOD OF 40 YEARS
175,000/ 40 years = 4375 windshields/year = 364.5 winshields / month = 12.152 windshields / day
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a brush in the hand is worth two in the kit...
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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those numbers of windshields painted, arent that impossible to do. granted i have never done more then 25-30 at one time, but when you get your palette set up, all the cars are lined up same area, and YOU are proficient at this......you can do a completed windshild........1-3 MINUTES NO MORE!!!! Say you worked 60 minutes, giving 2 minutes per....you can do 30 windshield an hour!!!! if you had 8 hours of doing this....240 a day. if you worked 20 days a month at that rate, 4800 a month.......you figure the rest.....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Have you ever agreed with the GM or owner of a dealership to have all the cars, ready for lettering the windshields, in a certain area of the dealership, at a specific time of the day?.....You show up, at the dealership, on the day and time agreed, to start lettering all the units, only to find out not all of them are where they were supposed to be.....Some are where they were promised to be, others are, probably, being driven by either a salesman, on an errand, or a customer, test driving it....others are not parked where they were supposed to be, etc......Joe, part of the game of lettering windshields is trying to find the units and allocate them in a certain area....( Sometimes, running around the lot like a headless chicken looking for the missing ones ) ..... and find out where they are, first, without ****ing off anyone in the dealership. .....So, you have to stop, your lettering work to go inside of the dealership and talk to the person with whom you closed the deal to find the unit or units that were supposed to be ready for you and are not there .......It is always like this....Never fails......Mostly, because the purpose of the dealership, before anything else, is sell cars and they do not care about the person who is there to letter the windshields, regardless of any previous agreement.....So you, being the good soldier that you are, fill yourself with patience and do as much as you can, in the meantime, by attempting to letter as many windshields as you can, while the missing units are found.
What all this boils down to is the loss of your pre-planned time for lettering the windshields. So, here is an unavoidable part of the equation....loss of time......Then comes the time invested in lettering the windshields......Which means that it never is such a cut and dry deal when you say that you can letter so many windshields in an hour.......It really sounds good on paper or when we say it, but it never happens like that.
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Ricardo ... if that is what is happening, then it is your fault for not acting like a professional!
You make it very clear that unless they are all up there on the front ... they don't get lettered! Otherwise, any that are not where they are readily available ... they are at a higher cost!
NEVER give a car dealer the upper hand!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Believe me....I have always acted like a professional.....I am always the "good soldier", like I said before.
On the other side of the coin, when I was ( notice that I said: "was"...I have been retired for over three years ) dealing with these "big shots" and something like this happened, I, more or less, treated them the way you suggested.....I have been known to walk away a few times, when the cars were not ready where they were supposed to be.
Basically, what I was referring to was to the unavoidable contingencies that take place at a car dealership, while you are attempting to be a professional.
This is the reason for which it is almost impossible to say that you will be able to make a specific amount of money per hour, when lettering windshields, as Joe implied.
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140 a week x 52 weeks x 24 years = 174,720. I celebrate my 25th year in a month. I did 1108 last month. I generally do about 26 an hour. I do 140 a day sometimes for just one dealer. I have some dealers who have me in to do the new and then another week later to do the used. Some dealers do these 'off site' sales at some shopping center and have me come in and do all of them once a year. Others just have me in every month. I have been known to reschedule a regular to go do a new client at times, but only if I really know the guy and explain to him.
The key is to control the messages and know the GM, NCM and UCM well. Recall I used to be a GM of a Chevy, Olds, Cadillac, VW, Audi group, so I kinda know how to treat these guys and talk to them. Speaking fluent Cardog is key. They give some some directions about payments and lease info, but I rarely do pricing, for a good reason. When ducks wattle in and see a price over 10 grand, they always think it is way too much money.
I have my standard generic messages. The big clients have me come in every 20-30 days and simply handle them. I recolor the old ones for half price and do the rest as new ones. Rarely do dealers try to give me a list, as I instead, ask them to sharpie on the lower right windshield and specific message (in advance of my getting there), if they want that.
On some of the note lots, they do some pricing, but mostly downs, pmts, and 'offs' (2000 off). The note guys always pay me on the spot, but the new car dogs get billed (10 days net). It is very rare I get any slow pays. I get more accidental double pays, than late birds.
It is always a great time to pitch a showroom or any other signage area, I want. You really have to boss these guys around a bit, but with authority, you can. I am getting more and more younger managers with my being 62, so they think of me as that old guy who does windshields. Sometimes when I meet a new manager somewhere, when I already know the rest of the crew, I act like Carl Childers from Sling Blade and that always gets them in the right mood! Would love to approach one with a blindman's cane and tell them I am the blind winder painter! "Just point me out to where I can begin!"
I do about half in windshields and half in showrooms every month, it seems. I still get some call for smaller hand-painted work and even some bigger permanent signage. I sub out my vinyl. No inventory... I do not stripe and do not try to get the small jobs from the nail salons or storefront snails.
Another secret is even if it is a blizzard, raining cats and frogs or 105 degrees, I always show up when I say. Never leave them hanging and I come back the next day or morning. One time of 'no show' and you are done being a lot lizard, period.
I do mix my own blend of color and base paint. Years of testing and experience has given me an idea how to do it in various times of the year. Right now, we are getting blasted by UV rays, so I cut it differently, to make them last at least three weeks. In the brutal cold, I use different mixs. I can go down to 26 degrees with light wind, but 42, if it is overcast and blowing. Yes, I have done it even below that. 100+ degrees and the stuff dries almost instantly.
I freeze a gallon of water to drink and fill it back up halfway thru with their cold or tap water. I wear sunscreen and a hat in the heavy heat. When it is cold, I do wear brown gloves and layers with a head wrap.
OK. You are thinking about doing it? They will drive you nuts trying to be in control. They are car dogs and will bust you on price, when you should be there, where to park, what to put on the glass, complain about scraping it off, move cars on you and treat you like a lot boy every chance they get, until they understand you are the man (or woman). Helps to wear an expensive watch and drive a newer vehicle, but don't act poor. Never talk about drugs, religion, politics or their female help. They all work 70 hours a week and most of them are divorced! Heck, they are Cardogs.
The whole deal is selling them. Word of mouth certainly has been my greatest calling card. Very rarely does another painter try to horn in on an account, I have seen over the years. We do respect each other's territory, it seems. I used to see someone new show up for a month or so every spring and then vanish. Haven't seen anyone new in years, though. Amazingly, competition is healthy. More seen and more biz. Bring it on!
No, I won't give out my mixes or brush info. No foamies for the big dogs. No cutsie-wootsie messages and no dripped paint. Got to get your own system. It only took me umpteen years to figure out mine. My father used to letter his used cars with tempera and I was the kid who had to go out the next day with a shammy and wipe down the fender. There had to be a better way!
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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i like si said....you let them run the show....and they will stomp all over you. like preston said it helps to know the GM....telling him to get what he wants lettered, lined up and a list made BEFORE YOU GET THERE.... is the only way to do this. if it aint there, it dont get painted. i used to have a a minimum of 10.....NOT 8- OR 6...10!!!! any less i would just drive off. do this once, they understand. PAY...was done when completed. i spent more time waiting for the money then i did LETTERING WINDSHIELDS.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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The new car guys are virtually impossible to get a check from on the spot, as some comptroller needs to let a statement cure out a few days, before they will sign one. It does no good to complain or try to accelerate the process, most of the time. I email or hand mail to the guy who will authorize the signature and I get a check withing a week or so. I also find sending an 'attached' bill slows things down. I copy and paste one into Corel Photo and insert them.
The count is always tricky. Over the years I have resorted to the system I learned years ago from some guru. One-run, two-zoo, three-tree, four-door, five-hive, six-sticks, seven-heaven, eight-gate, nine-fine, ten-den. As I walk along and letter, I imagine the image in my head and repeat it like a mantra. When I am done, I go back and double count. Maybe once a year, someone will tell me I must have made a mistake and I then tell them I triple counted, so they must have sold a few. Try counting new windshields and recolored windshields in your head, while they are paging some schmoe to call some number. Got to keep repeating it. Then some bozo walks up and wants to talk. I grab the sharpie and write the count number on the glass.
OK. The messages: Some I refrain from using...
1. Easily Towed 2. No Title 3. Bent frame 4. Two stage brakes 5. Ole Smokey 6. Ditch hugger 7. No key needed 8. Loves gas 9. Mechanical nightmare 10.Drips a bit
"Yeah, go do those across the street for my competition. Will pay you double"
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Most all brushes I buy today are for making art. I use inexpensive so I can toss them if they lose too much hair or synthetic hair...
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Jack. With all due respect, the brush is almost everything with windshield painting. It took me about 60 different ones, before I found my best. How they hold up, how fast they split-tail, how much mop, how much pull, how much stay-flat, how much chisel, how much edge work, how much snap... The cheapo throwaways are never capable of working fast and achieving a comfortable look.
Now in coating out some old sign with lettering enam and pulling a nice edge line, sometimes a cheapo works fine, but when you have to letter a $60k new truck or luxury car, why not use the right tool that only takes 60 seconds, instead of twenty minutes?
Now my fine art paintings that sell for many times More money? Yes, I love using those cheapo junk oxhair brushes I get at HD. Love them when they get old and scraggly. I guess it is all about the call for effects and the right look.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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Preston,W/all Ur windshield painting exp. have U ever had a problem w/ the use of a razorblade 2 clean off paint from glass? W/new blade,can U scratch the glass? I will paint a 18"-22" oval outline around 1"or 2"wide,then run my lettering thru the oval on an angle on the clear glass,when I get 2 other side of oval I scrape off 4"-5" area of oval & cont.the lettering a little further.
Anyway,I have nightmares of damaged glass windshields,belt buckel scratches,spilled paint,etc.
I have been a signpainter since 1965,Should not be afraid of No Paint Problems...
New at this window painting,only a few years doing it.My first sign shop I worked at lettered alot of Show Cards,had 2 learn 2 letter 1 handed w/only 2 finger grip,& fast so the water color tempra would not drip on U. So,them olden days remind me of the windshield lettering of today,quick design & colorful & fast lettering.I use that 1 handed 2 finger technique.
9 years ago I semi-retired & bought a home in coastal Charleston,SC I still have my home in New England,MA I am in MA 5 or 6 months during summer. The windshield-Showroom gig was planned 2 be a Paint-my-way south Dealership painting in the fall & back again in May,920 miles all on Rt.95,alot of Dealerships alot of Glass,but the Pop-In,tell Mr.Big,the Painter is here never worked 2 good,most liked but not right now.Oh'Well...Plenty of dealerships in Charleston, 70 miles 2 Myrtle Beach,80 2 Savana,95 2 Columbia,not even that far from Floida or Atlanta oh yea 4 hrs.2 Charolett,NC
I might even
think about coming out of Semi-Retirement.
Kent Moss Paint On... Sweet Charleston
-------------------- Kent Moss Greg Moss Signs Posts: 363 | From: Wilbraham, MA / Charleston,SC | Registered: Nov 2003
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Generally, I have not seen much trouble using a new blade on car windshield glass. I prefer to at least spray it down with glass cleaner first to get it to ball up, more than just dust up. The glass cleaner acts as a lubricant. When I remove them, however, I generally use a six inch glass blade from Denmark. Sharper and they hold up better, giving a six inch swath instead of a 1.5" cut. Remember to keep turning the blade over and over to keep it stropped against the glass for sharpness.
Another trick if you have to do multiple w/s paint removals is to use a wet rubber shammy or towel. Slap it over one for a minute and then slap it on the next. Spray down the first one with the glass cleaner and clean it off. Slap the shammy onto the third one and clean the second one. The water does soften it up some. I learned that one by accident, the mother of all good things, I am assured.
If you do a used car that is sand pitted, sometimes you get a client who says they can't get the paint out of the pits. Tell them it will fade in a month or so and if pressed harder, try soaking a cotton terry cloth towel down with lac thin and carefully hope you don't leave part of the towel on the painted areas. I have even then covered the terry cloth with a water dampened towel to slow down the evaporation of the lac thin beneath. All of this should be done in their wash rack and then power wash it after a couple of minutes. At least it looks like you are trying to help the guy out. In all that I have ever done, this has only needed to happen once from some old fogie car dog who squeaked at everything. You know, some guy my age and equally as grumpy with white hair!
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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All in all, I truly miss the smell of One Shot, and turps with a bit of Penatrol! Oh, and holding a Dixie cup in my left hand and my right glove with the thumb and index finger part cut off!
-------------------- Bill'n'Annie Davidson Heathcote, NSW, Aus. my Aussie wife, a Toohey's Old, my Holden Ute, Retired from the rat race! Posts: 309 | From: Heathcote, NSW, Australia | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Joe, That tool is easy to hold, but for the same money you can get those 6" danish bladed ones that are twice as sharp and stay sharper longer. Harder steel in the blades. Go to any window cleaning supply website and you can order them online. I bought a couple with a couple packs of blades three years ago and am still using them. The blades last so much longer and are 6". I think they were $15 for blades and scraper?
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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i got the 6" one........good for glass for sure, or any perfectly flat surface. these stanleys work good for vinyl on vehicles....and dont scratch. being only an inch wide, takes a little longer but no chance of hitting a high spot on the paint....
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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