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or an expedition I've heard all the concerns before, and can certainly understand them in the absence of information. Can't expect everyone to agree but atleast we all have info to base decisions on.
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
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Just a thought, Jay... If you could get a private business/corp like Chrysler to be interested in murals, it may be a prospect to opening other doors. Chrysler is now on the mend with newer dart line now. They could use something historical to tell the story on that huge property. I wouldn't mind seeing something other than the gray and blue building with cars and trains when I go past there.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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To answer Rick's question in regards to lowering the value of what we do and future spin off jobs:
I honestly don't feel that we are lowering the value of murals. There are a lot of artists out there who low ball in any case, and the towns could actually get cheaper murals through them. Hopefully the Walldog murals will be setting a bit of a standard as far as craftsmanship and materials. It's my contention that the towns that host the Walldog meets would not otherwise go out and purchase 12-20 murals. It does seem however that that there have been future mural contracts as a result of the meet in some (most?) of the communities. I'm not sure of the going rate for project leaders, however I believe it is in keeping with what we paid in Moose Jaw. As the guy who has to do all the preliminary work or design and maquette in the case of the murals, as well as holding the responsibility to see the job completed, I think it is imperative that the project leaders receive some compensation. Some choose to share that with their team others keep it. I think that is a choice that s theirs to make and both takes are valid. I personally am against all the attendees being paid a token stipend as I felt it will not be enough to make much different and it could change both the communities perception towards our generousity donating as well as allow them to then view us as paid employees and have expectations as to our behavior and work ethics. I do not believe that the Walldogs are elitist and the perception that they belong to the CSA forum is not true as I am not a member of that forum, but have been welcomed as a Walldog. I have never had any desire to be a project leader, I'm willing to work like a dog, but prefer not to have to deal with the stress. I have more than my share of that in my occupation, but I was gently persuaded that it was my responsibility to take my turn, so I will be leading a project in Kewanee. If you can get away Rick I would love you to be a part of my team, and you will be able to make the judgement call from experience, but I also understand your POV and respect your stand. In any case, like you said you got a taste of it in Moose Jaw. It was unfortunate that a lot of those who signed up decided to attend Algoma instead, but I understand that it was closer and cheaper for them to do so.
Finally, I don't understand the contention that Walldogs have taken over the Letterhead meets. Host one!
Jay, in regards to Rick I believe if you check into his past work you will find he has a vast amount of experience in the sign business including billboards and textual murals as well as hand lettering, ghost walls and movie sets. In Moose Jaw he was in charge of the detailing of an old fire truck including water slide decals and pin striping. He is a wealth of knowledge that I really appreciate!
[ August 31, 2012, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Sonny, you are going to get sued when some cyclist drives into that concrete wall! Beautiful job!
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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Are you going to be using Nova on that Sonny? Sorry I hadn't realized that that was a mock up - didn't mean to put you on the spot.
[ September 01, 2012, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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I have 2 Questions: How many Murals are there, and how much Maintance is required per Year ?
-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 229 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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-------------------- Kevin Betz KB Sign Company 21321 Ulrich Clinton Township, MI 48036 kbsigncompany@att.net Posts: 229 | From: Detroit, MI | Registered: Sep 2003
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Hey fellow sign-folk and occasional muralist. I thought I might chime in. I am not a long time Walldog. I've attended 2 of them Danville and Arcola. I became active in the sign community (CSA first then Letterville to a lesser extent) about 3.5 years ago. This became my long wished for support group, after 3 decades of being for all practical purposes a one man shop. I missed the entire Letterhead thing altogether. I think that I would have liked it better than the WallDog meets with their demands. BUT I am grateful for the Mural meets. In this economy I think we need the big event atmosphere to draw even WE to them. For me it is about meeting Forum friends face to face (finally) and creating a memory.
Folks I suspect and I am assuming that most would agree. We are simply seeing the growing pains of the walldog movement. When anything grows it demands more and morphs. Barriers arise and must be navigated around. Only after 2 events I can attest to the fact that no two meets will have the same flavor and that is a good thing. Expecting to re-live events from the past will only leave us sad and disappointed. A meet has to be experienced and looked back on after several months before it is fully appreciated by those in attendance. We are going to get out of this in accordance with what we invest in it. here I am speaking about more than money. We do reap what we sow, do we not?
And on differing note, lets all look at our beloved sign forums. Whether our shops are a storefront in Letterville or we are preparing for creative valor at CSA. What are we bringing to the table. We have to invest there too. What is it about us that would make a younger person want to hang out and learn? Lets showcase that.
[ September 01, 2012, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Bob Sauls ]
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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I've painted a whole lot of historical murals through the years and also participated as project leader in a number of WallDog events.
I've always enjoyed the WallDog meets. They are fun and a great place to visit with like minded people.
But on the other hand I've always had inner reservations about the WallDog events too. The public perception is that we paint these murals for free. They do generate a lot of public awareness for the arts however. But it has always nagged at my head just a little... even the perception that artists from all over the country traveling on their dime to paint murals bugs me sometimes. I've worked a lifetime to RAISE the value of the work I produce. This at times seems to undermine that notion.
In the last few years the number of murals painted in the participating towns seems to be growing. Organizers seem to want to out do the previous events... While it may increase the size of the meets it bothers me some that so many murals are 'given' to the cities. Painting twelve or fifteen murals has got to increase the amount of organizing exponentially. It also thins out the help or at least experienced help and makes it hard to finish some of the murals on time.
As a project leader I don't pre-arrange a select team to help on the project but rather see who's attending and then let those who come by that want to paint give me a hand. I design the murals to make this possible. I was a little anxious the first couple of times with this approach but have learned this whole wall dog event is about teaching others.
As far as the cities marketing the murals or using them for promoting their town... I've always considered the rights artwork I produce to belong to the client. For murals I do privately that fee for the rights is included in the cost of the project. For wall dog projects the rights are given along with everything else. As project leader the small honorarium covers expenses and some design time while in my studio. (time that could have been spent doing a paying job) What happens to the murals or how they are promoted/maintained after I've left isn't of concern to me.
I've done more than 120 murals spanning the last thirty years. I've been contacted a couple of times about restoring them twenty plus years later but to date have never got the contract. If the city or mural owner is too cheap to hire me then they get who they get... no matter.
I tend to not look in the rear view mirror too much but rather enjoy the view out the windshield of coming vistas and events.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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There I am on the scaffolding painting the H on the Joe Ernst wall, Dave Correll project leader / designer.
Dave did a outstanding job with his duties I learned just from him alone on how to handle a wall project & people better Thank you.
Since Nova color paints were 100% used I learned a great deal also from ease of working to brushes, again thank you Dave, Adam, Bob advice & watching ya work I learned.
As far as me .. traveling from Florida or anybody else even out of country wow & working the mural for my costs, well I choose to camp & some meals were provided.
Now those who were there know most likely that my bicycle did not make & took a 2 week tour of the midwest till I got it back, but while in Arcola other Walldogs saw how much it was needed for me to get about & how it effected my stay, arranging a bicycle to use while there & that changed my attitude greatly which I'm so thankful for words can not describe.
I will be at Kewanee ..why cause it was just plain outstanding in every way no matter how much talent I have or not the whole deal was never before encounterd.
So lets see from what I understand the town raised a great deal of money for this event way more then ever thought yes less then $10,000 per mural but to me that is alot per sq ft
The town surly benefits do artist in area benefit ..YES several even painted with us believe the schools teacher did a mural with students.
As far as should a town support murals once painted like those in Belvidere or Acola or any town. ...Just look at this way ..Every town, city, county, state... plant trees, bushes, plants, grass etc, that always need maintenance.
Is a mural any different ? Darn right it is but alot better results.
Should we as muralist get paid at a Walldog meet well ideally sure why not. son ow instead of $10,000 a mural goal, it is $20,000
Would I do this again even every year ..DARN RIGHT I only wish I could have started 20 years ago & even been to a lot of letterhead meets.
But I choose to live in a city that super tough to make money as a sign painter with no cash flow oh well I'm happy anyway chasing the dollar.
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Sonny - there is digital vinyl available which is made to adhere and conform to brickwork. JUST KIDDING !
Looks like a fun project.
Not to change the subject, but there is a pretty nice 'Statue of Liberty' mural in Fostoria, OH which I saw downtown the other day... huge - takes up the whole side of a large building. The windows are cleverly hidden within the painting... I should have taken a photo. Anybody know where that came from??
Edit: Found a link... click on the link, then click the photo of the mural and it gets pretty big with good detail.