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How can this be? I brushed on a fairly thin coat of black 1-shot, thinned a bit with just a little turp, and it's not dry after 4 days. The substrate is plywood with a couple coats of shellac on it. The paint feels dry to the touch but it's not sand-dry, that is a little sand sprinkled on it sticks to it and must be brushed off.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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I have heard/seen this happen with black, but four days is long. Did you try a heat gun? Once a friend did not clean out 1-shot brush clean to well and in the end wiped out the black and started over.
-------------------- Chris D Sullivan Whitby, ON
I Like That! Posts: 27 | From: Whitby, ON | Registered: Jun 2010
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Dennis, I have recently acquired some Ronan lettering enamels due to the slide in 1Shot's quality and stability. You may or may not be aware that 1Shot recommends that their hardener be added to it's products now. I had to find this out the hard way.
-------------------- Bob Sauls Sauls Signs & Designs Tallahassee, Fl
"Today I'll meet nice people and draw for them!" Posts: 765 | From: Tallahassee, Fl | Registered: Jun 2009
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Hi Dennis. just went through the same thing a couple of weeks ago, that was the reason for my post about Ronan paints. The black did dry after a couple of days, but set the job back also. I'm also in the process of giving some Ronan a try thanks to Mr. Lenning from Bigtop.
posted
I coated out a panel just last night with black lettering (1 shot, no hrdnr, brushed it on with a Nocturna). It was 70 degrees and some rain moving in, so the humidity was beginning to increase. In three hours or so, it was almost dry to the touch and this morning very well set.
I had the full pint can in the garage over the winter and it had been somewhat cold out there (down to maybe freezing in the cabinet). The only thing I did was thin it maybe 5% with Min Spts, but I thoroughly stirred it. I think the stirring must have helped it set?
I have experienced black weirdly taking forever to dry, before. It seems like it is very sensitive to temperature and over thinning, so maybe try a hair drier or heat gun...or maybe even give it some sun. Not too much sun, as I have also seen it bubble up in getting too much sun.
Now as far as how much it has changed over the years, I really do not see that much change (post lead additives). I do see some of the reds fade pretty fast, but they always did. When I was just learning about using lettering enamel (One Shot) my mentor said the whole thing was to get just the right thinning point...not too thin and not too thick. Maybe that might have something to do with it? You mentioned you used a fairly thin coat?
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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And another thing....what is the difference in using Turpentine, compared to Mineral Spirits in One Shot Lettering Enamel? Any advantage in turps?
And lastly, how about stirring slowly, compared to shaking the can with some thinner in it? Does it get 'shocked' if shaken too fast, compared to being slowly stirred (Stirred and not shaken...wasn't that 007)? I had to stir it slowly as I had the can pretty full and did not want to hand shake it, as I was in my good studio with the fancy floor.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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One shot used to print on the label the recommended thinner....sparse thin with kerosene... mineral spirits and turps....not in my shop.... but many will disagree
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I used very little turp, and mixed it on the palette. I've always assumed turp cd be used in place of min spirits if the latter was called for. Maybe not. The info on the can is all about hazards. Nothing about use or application, hardeners, thinning, drying time, etc. Wonder why it doesnt have a child-proof lid on the can?
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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I think they should have 'child-proof' wrappers on some lettering quills, considering some of the pitiful hand-lettering I have seen! As far as the lids on the cans...wouldn't it be nice if they could put the paint in some sort of plastic tube that did not allow any air back into them? Artist's oil paints are that way in metal tubes and they last almost forever, once opened, if the lid is put back on. One Shot lettering in tubes? For the occaisional use in lettering, it would work.
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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SI...uses unleaded))))), ive used lacquer thinner, and A/E reducer...........
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Dennis, I had this same problem recently. The black took days to dry! The only thing I could put it down too was not washing the oil out of my brush properly before I used it.I have used turps to thin paint for near 30 years without any dramas.
-------------------- Bryan Lynch
Lynch & Son Master Signwriters Posts: 15 | From: Gold Coast Australia | Registered: Feb 2011
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I'm a little confused. The paint feels dry to the touch but it's not sand-dry, that is a little sand sprinkled on it sticks to it and must be brushed off. Why is sand being sprinkled on the sign? Is it dry to the touch or not. It sounds as if it's acting like gold size, which One Shot, at least the older stuff, will do. I don't fool with One Shot much at all, maybe two or three times a year but turps was never a problem and unless the paint has changed drastically I can't see it causing this problem. Oil left in the brush will indeed cause problems but not in a big area. How large is the problem area? How long ago was the plywood shellaced? You could have some sort of outgassing going on but I kinda doubt it.
I would contact One Shot on this one. The best way is through their website and the "Ask Louie" section.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
While I agree that one shot ain't what it used to be, I still use it. I only thin with one shot reducers since they came out and previously used acrylic enamel reducer. I could use the paint thicker and it would still flow and work and I never had adhesion problems or drying issues some talk about. Thinner is not a place to save money. I worked in a shop that used the $4 a gallon paint thinner in the late 1980's before the changes and even then we reletterd several vans because of the cheap thinner and having to overtin the paint to the point of destroying it. Try the one shot reducers, the low temp will speed drying when needed and the high temp will allow for more working time.
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
posted
p.s. to keep any oil based finish, paint or gold size, from skinning over excessively in the can,take a deep breath and hold it, then exhale into the can to displace the oxygen then cap quickly
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
posted
Turpentine isn't what it used to be either. I recently purchased a gallon but it seems to be cut with some other thinner as it does not smell right. Oily reducers can surround or capture the dryer and keep it from working properly. If the paint has not cured, try putting hydrogen peroxide in a spray bottle and mist above the paint, letting it fall onto the surface. If this does not cure the paint,then you must start over. I suggest using the 1Shot reducers as well since they are formulated to work with the current resins and dryers and work well with Ronan too. When we had to reformulate at Chromatic to remove the leads, we also had this issue and that is why we developed specific reducers to work with the new formulas. This was widely advertised by all the paint companies in the '80's and included in our product guides but it seems no one remembers. The EPA mandated the formula change and subsequent issues. Because of the required safety labeling, most of the directions had to be removed and product guides were issued. Then with rising costs of liability, most paint manufacturers eliminated directions so they would not be responsible if the paints are applied incorrectly. Most only have a general description of use, not specifics.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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seems funny to me that I used to put one coat on things and get 10 plus years out of it, now I put 2 coats on and get 3 years unless I clear coat, seems like 6 coats to get the same life would be overall worse for the environment, but then again I'm not a government employed expert:)
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
posted
i was leaning more to what you say kent, TURPS & MINERAL SPIRITS.....have been changed/made in china or some weird crap is added to it or it is not distilled the same. i live in pensacola, lot of logging still goes on here. paper company here makes TURPENTINE. i would suggest when you buy your next gallon of turps...MAkE SURE IT IS MADE IN THE USA!!!! iam thinking the chinese pine trees might be a little different or they dont use the same process to distill turps.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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Solvents like turps, spirits are good for cleaning your brushes or to reduce the stickiness of the hair every so often but for flow it causes problems.
But don't take my advice cause all my paint is leaded..
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
Yeah, Pete, like you were saying about exhaling into the can, TCP Global sells a lot of custom painting supplies and they have a aerosol product called 'Bloxygen", that you can spray into open cans of paint, to keep them from skinning so badly.
I never got involved in the thinner controversy for many years. We always just used mineral spirits to thin our One Shot, Chromatic or whatever. For jobs that needed a little "extra", we used a little acrylic enamel hardener. I guess clearcoating with automotive is the next step; but that's even more hazardous (cyanacrylates) than lead ever was.
It's a damn shame, the squeentsy little gajillionth of one percent of all the lead-based paint we use for our work, they couldn't give our industry an exemption. But Nooooo... screw up the whole industry.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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if you don't have hydrogen peroxide you can use Japan drier and mist that on...
-------------------- aka:Cisco the "Traveling Millennium Sign Artist" http://www.franciscovargas.com Fresno, CA 93703 559 252-0935 "to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98 Posts: 3576 | From: Fresno, Ca, the great USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Dale, I clear most stuff with clearstar semigloss water base, sticks very well to vinyl, digital, banners and one shot, no hardener, no isocyanates, either sprayed or rolled with a foam roller, have even put it over slightly sticky one shot. Dana had a waterbase prduct , D 403 I think, or 304, designed to go over sticky oil colours for shipping, a lifesaver when paint wouldn't dry
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
posted
Dale, the Isocyanite is what the hardeners are made from and not the paint itself. The hardener or catalyst goes into the clear coat on automotive paint jobs. 1-Shot hardener is made from Isocyanite.
cyanacrylates are used in glue and adhesives.
Skinning in sign enamels can be eradicated by using Paint-Sav which which I been using 40 years.
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
"Why is sand being sprinkled on the sign? Is it dry to the touch or not. " George, my reason for the sand is this: Paint feeling dry to the touch is deceptive. I follow (more or less) the testing method used by the Paint Standard people -- sprinkle a teaspoon or so of sand on the paint and then turn the board vertical to let the sand fall off. If it does, the surface is dry. It will always feel touch-dry before it's sand-dry. That said, I'm not sure which degree of dryness is really enough for various topcoats, etc. They also have a standard test to see if the paint is dry-thru and not just surface-dry -- the ring test. You take a ring with a sharp edge, like a wedding ring, lay it on the paint and put a 7-ounce weight on it. It shd leave no impression. You can just use your fingernail with the right amount of pressure. -------- Alongside the 1-shot, which is still not dry after 5 days, I tried Ace RustStop oil-based (alkyd) enamel. It dried completely in 48 hours. Same brush, same substrate, etc. BTW the can has complete instructions on it and just a small safety warning. Only drawback is that the brushmarks show.
[ April 30, 2012, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Dennis Kiernan ]
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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Sorry, Joey, I used the wrong word! I meant isocyanates, and I was trying to say that spraying clear Imron (or other clear urethanes) is just as,if not more than, dangerous than the lead that was orignially in our paints.
I'm going to have to try Clearstar, Pete. I've used some other acrylic clears, and they work well; but brush and roller marks show.
If someone could come up with a chemical, that would allow acrylic paints to flow out like the oils did, that would be the answer. Floetrol helps a little; but not much. Thinning acrylics to make them sprayable results in overspray too, that we're supposed to be trying to get away from.
Look...I'm old and I'm not going to invest in a bunch of HVLP and airless crap, that I'll probably croak, before I have a chance to use them much. So I'll just crab about it!!
I know there are quite a few other professions that have bit the dust because of a bunch of know-it-all "suits" in Washington, but it really hacks me off, that they've screwed ours up too!!!
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Go back a few steps, Dennis... How fresh was the One Shot Black? Had it been opened or did it have multi shins on it? Did you stir it well? Have you ever tried applying it over shellac before?
-------------------- Preston McCall 112 Rim Road Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501 text: 5056607370 Posts: 1552 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Nov 1998
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My sister in-law works at Dupont Canada and I asked her what the difference was between mineral spirits / thinner, her answer was not what I expected, she said that they were trade names with different formulas and just a mix of the same chemicals, the chemical names I could not begin to spell or remember. As well she did say that some for the chemicals onces used had been outlawed and the additives have indeed changed over the years.
I have been using 1-shot hardner for over a year and have had no drying issues, as mentioned in one post I did have some oil still in my brush and this only left a couple strokes wet after 24hours the rest of the black letters had dryed. Great info here thanks everyone for add you 2c
-------------------- Chris D Sullivan Whitby, ON
I Like That! Posts: 27 | From: Whitby, ON | Registered: Jun 2010
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-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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Preston, How fresh was the One Shot Black? 1 to 2 years. Had it been opened or did it have multi shins on it? It had been opened but had little or no skin. Did you stir it well? Yep. Have you ever tried applying it over shellac before? Maybe not. But as far as I know shellac is supposed to take any kind of topcoat with the exception that it must be the wax-free kind for polyurethane. I think I'll try a different color 1-shot and see how that goes.
-------------------- dennis kiernan independent artist san francisco, calif, usa Posts: 907 | From: san francisco, ca usa | Registered: Feb 2010
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I had spoken to a chemist with one shot back in oct.about the 144 green they have and that it has an oily consistancy.This could be the problem with your black.This"IDIOT" ASSured me that nothing was wrong with the paint.I told him... that's a crock of bull. He really wasn't too concerned about it.My sugestion is that every sign maker who has ever used one shot,sign an internet partition as well,and showing in print the disapointment in the performance of this once prefered product. Maybe they will LISTEN and put this paint back to it's original formula.
-------------------- Bill Wood Bill Wood, Sign Artist 3628 Ogburn Ave., NE Winston-Salem, NC 27105-3752 336-682-5820 Posts: 397 | From: Winston-Salem, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Bill ... you are correct! They don't shive a git!
When they changed the formula on 1Sot Quick Size ... I wrote to "Ask Louie" to complain. The answer that I got back was did I know how to properly use it.
I know who ther person was that was "Louie" and was tempted to write back "Look A-hole ... I have been laying leaf since you were in diapers! Now what is wrong with the Quick Size?"
But common sense prevailed and I did not waste my time and changed brands!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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I got the same treatment as Si when I called a number of years back about some maroon that faded to pale blue in eight months, like somehow, after thirty years I didn't know how to use their paint. I really feel badly for the artists that are involved with this company.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
Si, would that be Brian Briskie who also said that Paint-Sav wasn't recommended for use with 1-Shot because it didn't work, he said every time he's opened a can of 1-Shot to use he would put more Paint-Save in it and eventually his paint never dried and I said, well duh!!! Use it once and it will always be there working..
-------------------- HotLines Joey Madden - pinstriping since 1952 'Perfection, its what I look for and what I live for'
posted
I opened a new pint of black 1-shot only to find that it was like a can of tar so thick you could not stir it. Great quality control!
So happy to have many cans on the shelf that still have the lead in them.
-------------------- Len Mort Signmaker1.com 11 Juniper Drive Millbury, MA 508-865-2382 "A Good Business Sign, is A Sign of Good Business"(1957) Posts: 811 | From: Millbury, Ma | Registered: Dec 2006
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P.S. Clearstar, is now (MARABU) Marabu, same phone No.but Steve and Laurie are no longer there and they are now into inks...
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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