posted
After nine years in the shop it is time to get serious about plumbing the shop for air. I've gotten tired of air hoses snaking in every direction on the floor. We invested in a serious screw compressor with a built in air dryer unit a while back. Now we need to safely get the air out to where it is needed.
For our shop I'll need about 100 feet of permanent airline installed. We'll have four hose reels at the air stations to keep everything in it's place. Extra coiled hoses will be handy for the rare occasion when we need the longer reach.
We need two air supplies in the router room, one for the router and one to blow things off and run the die grinder I often use in that room. In the main shop we need four air stations. One up high to hook into the plasma cutter, and three other stations in various places to run our air tools.
I want to run the air supply up high near the ceiling in the main shop. This is the shorter run, The air supply to the router room will run through the attic space to keep it out of sight and keep things neat.
I know that PVC is not an option for it is unsafe and against the law - especially at the pressures I want to run. We typically run our air at 120 - 150 lbs.
Black iron pipe is common but I would need lots of custom lengths. The labor to install the system is significant. I would have to start at one end and then build it from there because everything has to thread together and be airtight the first time. Because most likely I wouldn't make the pieces in my shop it would require a whole lot of trips to town to get everything required the labor for this option would really add up. I could rent the threading equipment but it is a dirty and messy job at best. It would mean a lot of trips into the attic. I'm not a fan of the heavy option.
The last two choices are aluminum and copper.
The aluminum is a cool option. I'm looking at the Transair system. Designed exclusively for air systems the fittings are quick and easy to assemble. There is a supplier locally. There are two drawbacks... while the pipe is affordable, the fittings really add up in a hurry and we will require a lot of fittings. The fittings are also somewhat bulky. Attaching the pipe to the walls and posts requires special (expensive) brackets. The beauty of this system is that if I want changes down the road the fittings come apart easily and can be reused. I'll be pricing a complete system out to see just how pricy an option it is.
Copper I can also do myself. While copper is fairly pricey I am comfortable with the cutting and soldering. Fittings are not out of sight and are available locally. I am able to get my supplies at a wholesale supplier which is considerably less than at a retailer. Changes or additions to the system will mean cutting into the pipe and soldering on new fittings. It is doable. I'll be pricing out this system as well.
Does anyone here have experience in either copper or the aluminum air systems. Do you like it? What would you do differently next time???
I'll be making my mind up in the next few days and doing the install in the week between Christmas and New Years .
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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When I built my shop I used copper. Never had a problem with it. Ran 150 psi in the line in the main work area, with 5 outlets. Then to the regulator for the spray booth.
I am sure you will take into consideration "line loss" over the length of the run. Start out with 1" and reduce to 3/4" and then 1/2" at the end of the line.
It isn't just about PSI, but volume too.
[ December 18, 2011, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Dan, Dave is right,you need to concider volume as well as PSI...One really good thing you have going for you is the type of compressor you have...I've run copper in several shops including tire shops with no problems...If your worried about being able to change things later and don't want to mess with soldering, there are new fitting out now called sharky's(expencive)but go together and come apart easly no soldering...I'd also run about a 6-inch moisture trap,(pipe below fitting with cap) just to catch condensation from the line, I know you have a dryer on your system,but its just a extra investment in allowing your moisture to drop away from the outlet...Hope this helps, good luck with which ever way you go...Pat.
-------------------- Pat Welter Masterhand Signs and Designs Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada Posts: 1304 | From: Unity, Saskatchewan.Canada | Registered: May 1999
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Copper works great and is easy to install. What everyone else said is right on.....
-------------------- Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass... It's about learning to dance in the rain ! Jim Moser Design 13342 C Grass Valley Ave. Grass Valley, Ca. 95945 530-273-7615 jwmoser@att.net Posts: 488 | From: Grass Valley, Ca. | Registered: May 2006
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have you bought COPPER THIS YEAR???? your up in the same price as mdi trans air. especially if you do 1" copper. schedule 40 PVC...........works fine. when people tell you bout plasctic pipes exploding into shards...........IT WAS SCHEDULE 30!!!!! not made to hold any pressure. water pressure and air pressure exert the same on any given pipping. SCHEDULE #40: 3/4" BURST PRESSURE 480 P.S.I. @ 73.4 DEGREES. 1/2" " " 590 " " " if you really feel like thats not enough, you can do: SCHEDULE #80: Both 40 & 80 have same O.D. 3/4" BURST PRESSURE 690 P.S.I. @73.4 DEGREES. 1/2" " " 850 " " " DO NOT USE EITHER IF YOUR AMBIENT TEMP IS OVER 140F DEGREES...........
[ December 19, 2011, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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I would never consider PVC as an air supply for our shop. The fact is it gets brittle with time. In a shop environment it can get banged easily. We move long materials around our shop all the time. Things get banged from time to time. Plus fluctuating air pressure, vibration and a host of other possibilities make it a material that is simply not suitable for this application. The makers of PVC pipe specifically warn against using it for pressurized air.
While water pressure and air pressure exert the same on any given point in the piping, air reacts very differently in a rupture. It continues to expand rapidly and shatters the plastic. PVC plastic will shatter and sharp shards go in all directions. When steel, aluminum or copper pipe ruptures it splits and lets the air escape..
If an accident were to occur I would suspect that an insurance claim would be a tough haul and if someone was hurt I would be personally liable. It's a risk I would not want to entertain - especially for a few hundred bucks at most. Sometimes trying to save money is a very bad investment.
I realize lots of folks do use PVC, most who do us it get away with it too but I've heard too many horror stories and close calls. Not for me or my crew.
I've worked up a list of pieces and part numbers I need for both the aluminum and copper systems. I'll be checking it out with the suppliers tomorrow.
This isn't about saving money but rather wisely spending what I need to in order to get an air delivery system that will serve me safely and reliably for many years to come.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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We have used PVC for the past thirty something years. I've never heard any horror stories, so perhaps I should go find some so that I might have something to worry about.
Seems the main things that I'd consider are that the size of the pipe holds enough volume and that there is a design that bleeds off any condensation, even though you have a dryer.
I sure like overhead reels that wind the hose away.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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like i said...those "so called horror stories" if you know the truth it was SCHEDULE 30!!!!! like i said i been in mechanic shops and body shops from maine to south fl.........A LOT OF EM ..had schedule 40 or 80 PVC...and not 1 problem.if your worried about bumping them use SCHEDULE 80, the wall thickness is close to 3/16". i have 2-3 mechanic friends who work at shops, here, that have been in operation for 10-20 years...WITH PVC AIR LINES... and no problem........and no problem with insurance. and ill bet quite a few besides rick has it in their shops. for me, i dont have air pressure 24/7. i run the air compressor when i need it ONLY. Some time it sets for weeks and never runs. i have a drop line, that is lower then any point on the pipe, with a petcock on it. when i start it u i crack it and when i shut iot off i crack it. no moisture problems. most mechanic shops and body shops also DONT RUN THE COMPRESSORS 24/7, they shut em off in the evening and restart in the morning. as for PCV and age........i got water lines here on the property.....i would bet is close to 30-40 years old. i got galvanized water pipes, from when the house was built and black pipe for natural gas in 1961.........but hey....do what you want...
[ December 19, 2011, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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PVC gets brittle in the direct sunshine. Inside it will last for many years. I was just at a place that has schedule 40 PVC airlines all over the place running air ratchets, etc.
In any event I would be more concerned with proper slope to carry away the water.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ensure copper piping for compressed air systems is "brazed" and not soldered.
In the instance of a fire, a soldered joint would fail, thus creating a compressed air supply for the fire. A "brazed" joint would withstand the temperature and not fail.
It may be by code.
Different thickness copper piping has different ratings/applications.
Best of luck.
Peace, Bob
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1873 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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thanks bob, i knew there was something particular about copper and compressed air...that was it.
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
That looks like a great system Doug, but as you know my little frame just can't hold the same volume of air!
Today I priced out the copper and fittings, then priced out the high end aluminum system. I was pleasantly surprised. The copper and aluminum system came out to almost exactly the same price with the aluminum system actually coming in about $10 less.
A custom designed aluminum system designed for air would have duel air stations where I need them. The installation would be neater and more professional looking. It is an easy decision and for much less cost than I had feared. Total cost of piped air with a premium system with seven air stations is less than $400.
It's an easy decision.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Raymond and I have been to Dan's workshops. I think he can generate enough air. All you have to do is show him a picture of an AXYZ or Shopbot or offer him a Pepsi...
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5084 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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"have you bought COPPER THIS YEAR???? your up in the same price as mdi trans air."
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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If Raymond was truly sorry about the horn incident he would have to repent from his iniquity and sin no more. I just know Raymond would do it again in an instant, given the opportunity. And without regret. Raymond would also post the link without regret - if he could remember the link.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Now, there you go again, Dan...making assumptions about me that are not absolutely accurate.
And I would post the video clip, but I know that would only cause you more embarrassment and I would never want to do that. (Plus the fact that I can't remember where it is)
While at AC, Dan was constantly saying, "I would like to apologize for how I treat you." But then after a short pause would say, "...but I'm not."
"Everyone brightens a room - some by entering and others by leaving." Apply as necessary.
Dan is one of those that brightens the space wherever he is, and it's indeed an honor to call him a friend.
[ December 21, 2011, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
-------------------- Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas chapmanstudio@sbcglobal.net Posts: 6306 | From: Temple, Texas, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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