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It must be the warm weather or the spring fever, but I have found the need to REALLY pursue information on buying a CNC router. I know many here have made the leap and have the experience on the pro and cons.
I have the need to not only cut out flat shapes from different materials, but to do 3D pieces from signfoam HDU. I have subbed out some of this type of work, but the interest and demand has led me to the crossroads.
If anyone would share their decisions on which one they decided to buy, what software it comes with or you bought seperately and anything that could help with my research.
There seems to be more available than a few years ago. I want to make a well-informed decision before spending thousands of dollars.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Back when I was looking at CNC routers I knew little. So I did research and it went on for months. I talked to various dealers who of course all promised me they had the perfect machine for my needs. So I turned instead to those who owned them. I made phone calls across Canada and the USA to talk to people with hands-on experience. I discovered CNC routers are NOT all created equal. The experience they had varied greatly as did the support they got from their dealers.
This is not a short term purchase - especially if you buy quality. The costs include the router, installation, software, and training/learning.
There are more and more 'value priced' or 'entry level' machines out there these days. I would stay away from these personally. I hear of many folks who buy a lower priced machine at the start, thinking they will upgrade later... and I ask what not buy quality from the start? I believe you can save money in the long haul.
Service and support is important - especially for a guy like me who does not want to tinker with my machine. I'll grease it but little more for I am not mechanically inclined. When I bought my machine I negotiated TWO years of service and support into the deal instead of the usual one.
In our case I felt sure we could pay for our router in one year - even a high end machine. Janis felt we should be much more conservative and in the end we leased our machine over four years with a small buyout at the end. I put no paying work on the machine for three months, instead taking the time to do up a bunch of samples and learn how to use my router and the software. That experiment lead to the front cover of SignCraft plus a feature article with the dimensional alphabet samples. More importantly it gave me the samples for my showroom AND the experience to do just about anything.
The jobs flowed in after that and amazingly my high end router paid for itself in a little more than six months.
After five plus years of heavy use I am convinced I made the right decision. My router still runs perfectly. We bought one of the best (and most expensive) CNC routers in it's class. But I have no regrets.
As a side note... we have made a deal to trade in our CNC router. I want to upgrade to a fourth axis machine. I would happily add it to our current router but it makes more sense to get a new one instead. My dealer asked me what kind of machine I wanted this time - what options I would include.
I asked for the very same router as last time with a couple small changes. It will be a 3000 series 4' x 8' MultiCam. It will have the automatic tool changer and 11 HP spindle with the vacuum table - all the same as last go around. This time we opted for a water cooled spindle. The reason is that for our dimensional projects the jobs tend to run much longer than someone who merely cuts pieces out. A water cooled spindle will give us a 100% duty cycle.
We also added the index rotary lathe to the side of the machine which will give us full 3D capabilities.
As for software... I recommend EnRoute. While other software can do much of what EnRoute can, I believe it has no limits... at least none I can find. The learning curve for this software is steeper than some, less than others. But then again if I can figure it out I believe just about anybody could.
In short, many people will show you ways to SAVE money when buying a CNC router and software. I would encourage you to rather buy VALUE. The last thing you want to do is run out of software or machine capabilities down the road. Then your decisions will COST you money in a BIG way!
If you want to talk - give me a call.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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do not get one if you are just planning to use it as a fancy jigsaw. You can buy lettering made much easier than cutting yoru own with a very expensive jig saw.
Before buying look at the software trial packages and play with it for hours. Learn all you can while playing and that will tell you if a CNC is really for you. Plus that will give you some great insight to what options you want such as center finders and edge finders.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I would certainly agree with Curtis. I would bet 98% of the sign shops out there use their routers as a jigsaw. That same 98% don't need fancy 3D software either.
Talk to people who DO the type of work you wish to accomplish. I see from your website that you do a little sandblasted work and a bit of layered/cutout work. While a CNC router easily accomplishes this type of work it can do so much more.
Buying a CNC router is a BIG commitment. But the payments are only one small portion of what you will commit to. You will need to take the time to LEARN how to use this new tool and the software. You need to commit to building lots of 3D samples as part of that learning process. These samples will also enable you to sell this new found ability you now possess.
A CNC router in the proper hands and with the proper commitment will separate your shop from everyone else out there. You will be able to do work everyone else dreams of doing.
If you don't do this you will sign up for one MASSIVE debt load that serves no purpose.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I can fully understand what Dan and Curtis are saying, but don't sell panel cutting and simple jobs short either. Like most of us I got a router system to do the fancy stuff but have done lots of jobs that i got a lot of extra money for because of a few raised panels with bevelled edges on directories and such, While these simple add ons could have been done with a table saw and hand held router, it's more accurate this way and just like a vinyl cutter I can do something more interesting while it's doing my panels, like take a nap like ray chapman, or try to figure out what drugs sawatsky uses to come up with his ideas. I use vectric v carve pro. I have a built in resistance to software and computers and have myself convinced that I can't possibly learn it, but once I got over that the online video tutorials on the vectric site made learning this thing a breeze. I still do my design in corel and export to v carve as an eps file to pick tool bits and depths etc. I have found no need for a vacuum table or tool changer, no 3 phase power out here in the boonies, and a background texture will sometimes run for hours so to change from a profile bit to an endmill to a ball nose for the texture at a couple minutes per change isn't a big deal to me, and not worth the extra expense, but I can sell you all that if you want! download the free trial software from Vectric and try it out, the 3d preview is great
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
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Thanks guys for the first of my collection of research on CNC router tables. I have talked a little with Dan about this idea and he has been very supportive and encouraging.
I would definitely not be buying it for a fancy jigsaw. I have a steady hand and have cut many shapes out by hand fairly quickly. I want to be able to go full 3D with my designs. I am more interested in pushing it to the limit and beyond.
I will use it for precise cutting, beveled edges and such, but would mostly want it for dimensional purposes.
Where should I look now? Downloading trial versions of software is great. I will start there, but how does one find out what's out there to download?
The journey continues....
Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Steve, Looks like your doing your Homework on the routers so I am not going to chime in too hard about that as everyone has their own opinion. Just get the Best you can afford. Sticking to the name brands.
As for Software.. the Big 3. Artcam Enroute Aspire.
All good programs with their own Plus and Minuses work for 2-1/2D Work. Artcam and Enroute being the best of the 3.
Now if your thinking 4 or 5 axis Machining.. Hold on to your wallet and brain.. VERY VERY Steep learning curve.
[ February 18, 2011, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: William DeBekker ]
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I will continue to use EnRoute for my four axis routing. The software to run the extra axis is not yet released to the public but it is already written. I also have the commitment from the folks who wrote it that continued input and abilities within the software will keep up to the things I want to do with the machine. It's going to be exciting!
As for complexity of the software... it's really not that hard. I learned it on my own with little help from others and that says a lot. A little more than five years ago I didn't know what a vector was - never mind anything to do with 3D software.
If you are able to visualize things in 3D it is more a matter of doing things in a very logical order. That's the part I have the most trouble with.
The V-carve software Pete recommends above is good software but very limited in it's abilities and will not do the things I think Steve wants it to do.
If you take the time to read the blog I write for EnRoute you will see the things the software is capable of and step by steps on how to do them. www.enrouteadventures.blogspot.com I'm working on and posting about some very cool projects of late.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks Bill and Dan. I am going to be sticking my neck out to get to the next level, but I did the same thing 6 years ago with a digital printer. Sure, I could have subbed the printing out like many folks still do, but there are only so many productive hours in a day, and I don't like spending most of it emailing drawings and designs when jobs need to be done.
Convenience is a plus, but not the only reason to invest in equipment. Control over the final product is crucial. I hate having to send anything back to be redone or fixed.
I see a wide open field for 3D work in my area and hopefully I will be able to make it myself here in my shop without having to wait for materials that I subbed out to get here.
Thanks for some valuable information. The research is growing and I will continue my quest!
Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Having your own router will allow you to grow in your skills much faster than you could ever hope to by merely subbing things out. Knowing you I suspect you will continually push the envelope... and challenge yourself.
I know that with each project I tackle I do just that. After five years I feel I am just now scratching the surface of what might be possible.
I have some very cool projects on the drawing board and some wilder ones yet still in my head. Having my own router allows me to fully explore the possibilities. I can't yet even imagine what I will be able to do with a four axis machine - but I know it will be cool!
Have fun in your quest!
Buy the best machine and software you possible can and you will find there are few limits.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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i have aspire and it does every thing I need so far. It also has unwrapping so you can do round items in the 4th axis..
Aspire is adding modules on a regular basis. It is a full service software. It is not as full featured as Artcam but it is dam close. It is written by the same coders who once wrote code for Artcam..
What turned me to purchasing Aspire was the fact it has NO Dongle, and I can use it on several computers. It merely uses a key code along with your name and email address. That is such a nice feature that I have it at the office, on the laptop and on the cnc computer in the shop.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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I'll try & be brief & not repeat what's been said, except for a couple of pointers we've found pertinent.
Our router has a 2.0 x 4.4 metre bed. I LOVE it. The size has really helped a lot. "Jigsawing" 3050 x 1500mm alupanel, and 12 ft long sheets, and butting 8'x4' HDU up & going over the joins - terrific.
Our bed is 1.5" MDF alone. It works for us-we didn't have the power for the 7 or 12 HP vacuum pump. You can leave a half-finished home project on the bed & do commercial work at the other end & a week later come back to your experiment-there's plenty of room!
We use a single-phase rotary converter to power the 3-phase spindle. Works well.
Don't underestimate the cost of spare bits/cutters-you'll want plenty. And more again!
I spent a good 30 days just learning to use it-all of July 4(?) years ago. That was just an introduction to the software & procedures & thought processes & limitations - on a teach-yourself basis. (I did no incoming-producing work that month!) Barely scratched the surface!
It came 2nd-hand, with Enroute, therefore I like Enroute. I've learned a lot & have no regrets whatsoever. There were problems, sure, but I don't mind learning to overcome them.
It is a retrofitted 20 year-old Esab machine. Solid & heavy. Functional, not pretty.
The auto tool changer is me!
You will have to consider servo motors versus stepper motors-read up on it. Steppers are way cheaper. Servos are way better.
My questions for YOU are: 1. What is your hoped-for budget? 2. Would a 2nd-hand machine bother you? 3. Preferable size 8x4? More? Less?
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Good points Ian. I started with a 4x4. Made it into a full 4x8 within weeks. It is a super pleasure to have one setup and jigs on one end for production work,. And be able to operate the custom stuff on the other end.
So a full size machine would be a good choice.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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you're right dan, v-carve pro will cut a 3d file but not create them, although i've read that some do their grey scale and mesh in coreldraw i haven't tried that yet, and would likely upgrade to aspire, still very inexpensive by comparison to some others and looks pretty simple to learn, but then i've used coreldraw for everything including digital printing for a few hundred bucks instead of several thousand for some dedicated sign programs.Didn't mean to imply that I would have bought one to cut panels , just been very surprised how much of that i've done, along with getting my feet wet with the other stuff it can do, like v carving and textured backgrounds etc. Much like when we sell a digital printer, people are shocked at how many things they do with it that they didn't consider before having one in house.And yes, the change in thinking has been interesting, never had to decide on a depth of cut or what tools I would use in advance when blasting or handcarving, just dug in and made decisions on the fly!
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
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I am reading all the great comments and smiling because when you don't know what someone is talking about, you just smile like you do! I don't have ANY router experience and don't have a clue what an axis is, but I'm sure this will only part of the learning curve!
I am going to try and find someone close to my area that has a router table that I observe while it's working. This will help answer many questions for me about the capabilities of the machine and the software.
I really want to be able to do large projects so a entry level machine would not be a smart idea. I will be interested in comparing the software functions and get some free downloads to try.
Thanks again guys for the great input. This really helps alot and I appreciate all the advice.
Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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I know how you feel Steve... the terms seem to be endless and very confusing when you start. And not all manufacturers use the same terms or points of reference.
There's lots of good advice above and in the end you have to do what is right for your situation. Ask yourself if you are in it for the short or long term before you make your decision.
The term 3 axis refers to the following... Z axis = up and down X and Y axis = side to side and back and forth.
The fourth axis machine I am getting has a fourth axis and that is a rotary lathe attachment that is indexed. This doesn't spin at speed like a lathe but rather turns in very small increments by way of a servo motor and gears. This rotary action is substituted for either the X or Y axis depending on where your rotary attachment is located (On the end or side of the router.)
Gantry height is another thing you should be aware of. Too little and you will be limited. Height governs stability and on lighter machines this will affect quality of cuts - especially on denser materials. I believe 6" of clearance is about ideal for most applications. More than 6" is generally not necessary as you will find the biggest limitation in doing 3D work is the bits and collet (the thing that holds you bits) With fine bits it is pretty hard to do work that is deeper than 2". So if you want to do read dimensional work make sure your software has the ability to easily slice up your files into layers. (the less steps the better)
As noted above in other posts you will see the term servo motors verses stepper motors. And in each of these categories there are differences in quality and speed. Servos are much better than steppers and also more expensive. Better translates into beefier, faster and more reliable. That means long life and reliability. Stepper motors also can sometimes lose their way if you push them too hard. This would get expensive if you have a piece of pricey HDU on the table.
The truth is just about any router can do a job. Just about any 3D program can build a file. But not in the same fashion or speed.
It's like comparing a cheap micro economy pickup to a heavy duty ( and expensive) diesel truck. Both have four wheels and seats and a cargo bed. Both will get you to where you are going and carry stuff. But they are not equal. On light duty, small jobs they may compare, but in terms of long life, reliability and capacity and speed under load there is no comparison. On both trucks you need to finance, learn to drive, build a garage to house them, do maintenance, and more.
With a router you need to count in the cost of the router, financing, electrical hookups, shop space, dust collection system, large air compressor (if you have a tool changer) software and the time to learn. In the end if you truly count everything the difference between a low end machine and a high end one probably isn't as great a percentage as you might think. Unreliability will cost you much more than quality. If after a short time you have to upgrade the lower end machine or if it spends a whole lot longer doing jobs (because the machine is slow) that price difference may disappear far quicker than you would believe possible. You get what you pay for.
A used machine may be an option, but be careful. A friend of mine bought a used machine ( $15,000 ) and then spent hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars more trying to get it up to speed. After months of frustration this person ended up junking the 'bargain' machine and then went out and bought the quality machine he should have started with. How much did he save?
If you buy a used machine make sure it has a electronics board that can handle 3D files. Another of my friends bought a used but running router he intended to do 3D work on. The board and other components on the router needed upgrading and it was a $10,000 upgrade. In the end he didn't save much money and he still has a slow, used machine worth little.
Another friend of mine has a low end stepper machine. We compared running times on the same file... my router took 1.5 hours. His machine took nine hours. In a production shop that adds up in a hurry!
Another friend of mine built his own machine. He spends endless hours tinkering with it to keep it running - more time than it actually works on real jobs. Counting broken parts messed up materials and continual upgrading or replacement parts he has spent tens of thousands of dollars on the thing. He has low end software that limits him daily. His router is slow as molasses... he is one frustrated dude. But every time I see him he insists that he is saving money compared to what I bought. Right.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I was mad when i missed an auction with 2 gerber tables that went cheap, $8,000 and $11,000 each, later talked to a tech that knew the tables and he said $14,000 plus each to replace almost every sloppy moving part, glad i missed the sale now!
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
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Another good point from Dan. A fast STRONG machine.
300 pieces on a fast STRONG machine is still like taking a Sominex. The good part is you can stack up sheets and cut several at the same time with one setup. And you do not have to baby sit the thing.
The same job on a weak slow machine will be like a death sentence. One piece a minute is over 5 hours of wasted life. You can stack sheets but you still have to take shallow cuts.
I have a fellow cnc'er with a slow weak machine and he is in agony over how long it takes to complete his work. I never say "I told you so" but I sure think it. He has to baby sit his because it will lose its place at least one a job.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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Yes, I forgot - dust extraction systems are a necessity, too.
The software controlling servo motors is a "closed loop" system, which means in effect that the computer always knows where the cutter is, and you can reset it & continue on from some point in the event of a tool break or something. It can also accelerate & decellerate, to reach certain coordinates more quickly. The constant feedback from the encoders convinces or verifies to the PC that the cutter is where it is supposed to be at any point in time.
Stepper motors are like on the older, or these days cheaper plotters. They have a fixed (slower) speed, and the computer sends a number of pulses to them to make them turn a set amount. Should they jump about or accidentally skip, they will continue along from the new place with no idea that anything was wrong.
Pricewise, a servo system is about 5 times the cost of a stepper system - over here at least.
There are lots of 'bargain-priced' chinese routers on ebay etc. I am not aware of any happy purchasers of any of them except one person who bought one & pulled it to pieces, threw out all the control gear & added in his own.
Compared with some of the figures above, I guess ours is a weak machine! It has a 3hp air-cooled spindle (router motor) of "Perske" brand.
You DO get what you pay for!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I was informed by the Mechanical Engineer, that they would be cutting out "Carbon Based" forms. I informed him that they needed a "Explosion Proof" dust collector for that, and they did not budget for it? Any ideas to what we may acquire for this? Thanks everyone!!!
-------------------- Rollie Eldred Ashtabula, OH
"Making the World Beautiful...One Sign at a Time!" Posts: 66 | From: Ashtabula, OH (Really Saybrook-on-the-lake) | Registered: Dec 2007
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I ran a MultiCam Router with Enroute and Flexi at my last job. Solid machine and Enroute is an excellent software package. If I were looking to buy a CNC router I would look at the MultiCam units.
We also had an older aluminum framed CNC router at that same employer but it could hold the detail that the multiCam could.
If you are looking to do some serious work you need well built equipment.
We just had a new MultiCam plasma cutter unit delivered and are trying to get the ventilation hooked up next. Then it is off to learn some new software, and hack up some metal.
posted
OK I give up. What are carbon based forms. I couldn't even find anything on google other than people and animals which are all carbon based life forms. I don't thin you'd be using a Shop Bot to cut up people.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Sounds to me like a carbon-fibre or kevlar type of product, Dave. Fibreglass & epoxy resin in a crude sense.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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carbon composite materials to hold the heat at the base of ceramic molds in an induction furnace. We cast airfoils for the aerospace industry. Flat circles to fit around the actual molds. Aproximately 1/4" thick by 30" diameter but to fit the shape of the mold in the furnace. Does this sound interesting or what? Different shapes for different products that currently are being cut by hand. This device is going to ge
-------------------- Rollie Eldred Ashtabula, OH
"Making the World Beautiful...One Sign at a Time!" Posts: 66 | From: Ashtabula, OH (Really Saybrook-on-the-lake) | Registered: Dec 2007
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carbon composite materials to hold the heat at the base of ceramic molds in an induction furnace. We cast airfoils for the aerospace industry. Flat circles to fit around the actual molds. Aproximately 1/4" thick by 30" diameter but to fit the shape of the mold in the furnace. Does this sound interesting or what? Different shapes for different products that currently are being cut by hand. This device is going to get a work out!
-------------------- Rollie Eldred Ashtabula, OH
"Making the World Beautiful...One Sign at a Time!" Posts: 66 | From: Ashtabula, OH (Really Saybrook-on-the-lake) | Registered: Dec 2007
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More great advice and information that I really need. Thanks Dan for the detailed explanations. Also thanks to Ian,Bill, Pete and Dale for your insight. I will also check out Aspire software that Curtis is using. I like being able to update as my needs grow which will also be a concern in choosing the router table. Expandability will be a plus, but after checking out the cost it may be wise and cheaper in the long run to get everything at the beginning.
So it looks like I am in search of working machines in my area that I can see in action.
This post may help others who have been considering a router and not know where to go for advice and information.
Sure glad Letterville exists! Big thanks to you all for your valuable input.
Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Another thing to consider in a cnc is ball screws vs. rack & pinion. Both have pro's & cons. If you go with rack & pinion though, look for a machine with lots of teeth per inch. You will get a higher resolution with smaller teeth @ more per inch because more teeth will be fully engaged at all times. Mine has bigger teeth and I may look into replacing them with smaller ones.
Aspire is a great entry 3D program, and has a very attractive price, but it has it's limits. I hear customers are impressed with their training videos, and yes the Aspire makers are former Artcam people, but you aren't going to write 14 years of software development into an entry level package. But in my opinion, Aspire will do 75% of typical sign shop 3D work.
In my case it just wasn't enough. Here's an example with the two rail sweep function. This is what you would use to create say a picture frame molding where you have two vectors forming the left and right rails (curved or straight), and then you have a vector that forms the profile or edge view. Aspire WILL make a 2 rail sweep. But say like in my case I want to use a two rail sweep to make a 3D representation of a fairway on a golf course. In Artcam, I can shape the map of the hole with 2 rails, then make cross sections that would match the terrain where there might be left to right or vise versa slopes, but in Artcam there is another function called Z modulation where I can make another vector that represents the hills and valleys along the length of the hole, as well as the slope from side to side. Aspire won't do that yet.
This is why you need to look at as many of the Aspire videos that you can, THEN download the 30 day trial, and see if it will do what you want. The most expensive software out there is the one that you buy and find out after the purchase that it is the wrong one for what you want to do.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5397 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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Steve, what Dave says is right. However, it took me a while to learn that "sweep two rails" has nothing to do with brooms or trains.
It is what seems to be a queerly-worded explanation for a process of applying a profile, or a vector shape, or a pair of vector shapes, to a 3D object.
It is useful if you wanted to create from nothing, something like a 3D tree leaf with veins & warped curvy edges, etc, or a fancy baroque picture frame moulding, and stuff like that.
It lets you apply the shape of the open-ended vector lines, across the flat profile (the soon-to-be 3D object), kind-of like extruding icecream from a dispenser, in a way, and you get to govern the shape of the spout of the dispenser.
Hope that helps-it's a queer language!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Wow guys, that gives me more to think about! I want to see more samples of 3D creations from the router! Can anyone post some photos of these amazing 3D pieces?
I have seen many great 3D signs in magazines, but would really like to see how it was done.(or explained how you did it).
The quest continues and it's not just on youTube!
Sign-cerely, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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[ February 22, 2011, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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Steve, didn't you read an article linked from here a month or two ago-it's all just done with the press of a button-simple!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Since I'm immediately following Dan's post, let me first say that there really is nothing better than his blog for a first hand insight into brilliant router planning, file creation, and creative inspiration. You couldn't pay for such a valuable lesson anywhere (except maybe his Sign Magic Workshop, which is a wonderful experience for anyone, router or no router).
Now, let me ramble some idle thoughts for a moment...First, I think you are very fortunate to be the recipient of such sincere, detailed responses to your thoughts of purchasing a router. You definitely should take heed to the advice given so far and research thoroughly, talk to router owners, visit router manufacturers, and plan well for your personal situation. Routers are not like anything else. They require lots of space, have a heavy electrical requirement, have a tremendous learning curve, require lots of extraneous equipment and require a great market in which to sell your work in order to get your return on investment. You can go and buy a digital printer, figure out how to use it and try to sell your product with a good chance of success, but for a router you actually need a full business plan before making such a purchase. Additionally the substrates you will be using are large, heavy and costly, and the many mistakes made with them with be doublely costly.
New vs used...well, there is always the standard risk when purchasing used. You really need to know what you are buying when you purchase used. You need to be able to evaluate every little bit of the equipment and make an educated decision as to whether you are getting quality equipment or not. If you are new to the equipment and unfamiliar with all of it's many details, then you probably shouldn't be shopping used. Also, you are likely to make mistakes as a new user and damage things...with a warranty you can live with that. On the other hand, purchasing a used piece of equipment is a good way to learn, work out all your learning mistakes and find out if this equipment is really for you at a lower cost. Then you can always sell it again probably for a minimal total investment. If you do that then I would definitely equip yourself with the top of the line extraneous supporting equipment however.
Top of the line vs economy equipment...well, I'm not a good one to give advice on this. It seems that whenever I get involved with anything, I'm not happy unless I paid as much as humanly possible for whatever it is. Therefore, I suppose you can assume that my preference is to lean towards getting the top of the line equipment. Routers are a good top of the line investment. They don't become obsolete the minute you get them in the door like other equipment. They will last many years and if you're not using them every minute, they don't require any continual maintenance and don't have any idle operating costs. This is really a personal decision that you have to make based on your intended usage.
You need to be realistic in your plans and expectations. As for my own situation, I purchased a used very economical router with no experience, no market and no idea what I was going to do with it. I struggled through the learning curve, which years later is still going on. I made expensive mistakes but I also learned a lot and turned out lots of good work. Someday I hope to graduate to a Multicam and when I do, I will know every nut and bolt on the machine before I buy it. Someday, because I might have been hasty earlier but now I know I really don't have the facility to house a good, large router, I really don't have the market to get my return on investment, and my dreams just don't quite equal my reality yet but when they do I'll have cut my teeth on my used router and hopefully sell it for a minimal total investment.
In the end, the router is simply another tool in your shop and to utilize it to it's fullest potential, you must have it in you to make it work. You should really try to determine that first if possible. Practice, practice, practice if you can. Get the software first and try creating files, maybe even send them out to someone to produce your samples and see how they turn out. You can always sell the software for a minimal loss if you give up. Whatever you do, I wish you luck and hope you'll keep everyone posted as to your progress now that you opened this can of worms
-------------------- Gary Boros SIGNWORKS STUDIOS LLC Monroe, Connecticut, USA Posts: 264 | From: Monroe, Connecticut, USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Another thing, or a 'plus' to consider is that routers don't improve their resolution like printers do.
A router that might be 10 years old will still rout as neatly as a new one, all things being equal, while a 10 year old digital printer, for instance, will certainly not work as clearly as a 2011 model.
Speed IN the material also does not really change with years of age-it is governed by spindle speed & servo & spindle power, and cutter diameter & number of flutes & cutting depth. Again, an older machine won't necessarily be much slower than a new one-except maybe in the travel time when out of the material.
The power to the servos is a big thing to consider though...
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Three other things to consider are power, dust and noise. The heavier duty CNC routers have big spindles that generally require three phase power. Since my shop is 400 feet off the road and my driveway already finished (with $22,000 worth of concrete) I wasn't about to dig in new conduits for underground 3 phase service. Through my research I decided I needed a hefty spindle and settled on the Eurospindle of 11 HP. Through an inverter we boosted the available single phase power to what I needed to it and my 10 horse power vacuum pump for the vacuum hold down table as well as the servo motors. While I could have had an electrician do the work (I decided to get it straight from the factory that way. Hence it would be done right and all be under the same guarantee. I'm told that converting the power diminished the horsepower of my 11 HP spindle actually drops the rating down to about 7.5 HP still plenty for our application, but that is why we went with the larger spindle to start with. The larger (read that more expensive spindle) has four sets of ceramic bearings to insure long life. This has proven to be true. Add in a 7.5 horse power single phase rotary screw compressor and a 7.5 horse power dust collection system and we are pretty much maxed out our 200 amp service to our shop.
Initially I had my router in one corner of the main shop. Dust and noise proved to be a problem, livable but not nice. Routers generate a LOT of dust. While the dust collection vacuum picks up a lot, when we do full blown 3D work the bit needs to be extended beyond what the bush assembly will reach. That means dust chips go flying to some extent. And the noise, while not overly loud is constant and annoying after a while. Eventually we emptied out the separate back room and moved the router there. The router spindle is not that noisy, but rather the vacuum pump that is the problem. Some bits make more noise than others but I don't use them much. We are now building a very small super insulated room on the outside of the building for the vacuum pump to further isolate that noise.
The other factor to consider is that when customers saw the router working the value of our work would immediately diminish as we heard the comment "Oh a machine does this work". Now the router is not in sight of customers. If customers ask I tell them our work is either sculpted or carved... I don't tell them how for using a CNC doesn't bother me.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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All I can say is Thank You to all of the advice so far. It is overwhelming that so many are interested in helping me out on researching CNC routers.
I have had a couple great emails about used routers and will check them out as well. Once I have a good understanding of what to look for, I will be prepared when examining a used router.
The software seems to be equally important as the hardware is many responses so far. I need to decide what my goals are as well as what I can afford to spend to achieve these goals. Speed may be a luxury on some models, but cost will unlikely determine that factor! Thanks Dan for the link to your blog which I have been studying.
I will continue my search for more comparisons of brands, options and experienced advice!
This quest is just getting started....
Sign-cerely on a mission, Steve
-------------------- Steve Luck Sign Magic Inc. 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 (618)466-9120 signmagic@sbcglobal.net Posts: 870 | From: 2718-b Grovelin Godfrey, Illinois 62035 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Although there are many things to consider (and some say many perils) when purchasing a CNC router there are also many upsides in store. With the right equipment and software and the commitment to learn to use them the benefits outweigh the costs by far. Our CNC can do the work it does five times faster than I could hope to do it by hand - and I work fast by hand with good tools in my shop. It does things I would have a tough time doing on my own. I do not take on work to simply keep my router busy. I'm perfectly happy to have my router work one day a week on average.
I looked at our CNC router (and associated costs) as similar to hiring two skilled and experienced full time employees for a year. That was the equivalent investment. Add in the time it took to get a handle on things.... in our case three months before we put a paying project on the router. We also spent those three months building the samples we needed to sell the kind of work we would be doing in the future. We (correctly) figured it would take two years for the new 3D sign business to get off the ground. We financed our purchase accordingly. Then we set things in motion.
Fast forward five years... it's all on the plus side now. Our router is long paid for and we still have top end equipment in great shape. Yesterday my MultiCam tech was in the shop checking out my machine as we ready it for a trade on the new 4 axis machine. We replaced the bearing cars on the X and Y axis ( a quick and easy task) and he checked out the machine overall. We'll also replace the spur gears too, even they show only a teeny bit of wear after five years, making the machine as good as new. It pays to buy heavy duty if you are in it for the long haul!
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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I think you have great source of info here, I guess think about the work you will be doing, if its 3D then perhaps a machine with servo motors would be more productive timewise.
Gantry height is another thing that is easy to overlook, often the height is quoted without the vacuum table/board chocolate block which can add 30mm 1.5" I rebuilt my spindle backplate to allow me to raise it up higher to get ong tools in and out of 100mm material 4"?
Have actually been looking at another machine, that can have a much higher gantry, is very very fast, and easy to use, but probably not heard of on your side of the pond, a very stable, solid well built machine.
Think about the sizes of materials you are supplied with we have a 5ft x 10ft table but in europe alot of pvc/acrylic sheeting comes in just over 6ft by 10ft sheets.
There are lots of good tool suppliers, and tools for different jobs, plastics or aluminium. tapered etc.
We cut aluminium letters and then weld sides to make can letters its easy, and so maybe a router with a misting wand is a good option, I know Dan has that on his and has never used it but one of these days
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