posted
Hi there. Well, I'm having problems on an awning job. Vinyl graphics are not sticking to the vinyl awning.
Here's the scenario. When I got on the job, I saw they had the gummy stuff left from previous lettering. I was not made aware of this first ... so you can imagine my delight. I cleaned gummy stuff the best I could with goof off and denatured alchohol. Lettered up the awning, but immediately realized the lettering was not going to hold. I figure it was because I must still have a film left from insufficient cleaning.
So ... I ripped off the stuff I had on there that wasn't holding, and decided to take the awning down and back to my shop, where I cleaned it very well. I tried all kinds of solvents, but found that a combination of aerosol goof off with a squeegee for scraping took the snotty goop off, and then cleaning with mineral spirits after that seemed to work best. Seemed like the awning was very clean when I was done. (took a loooong time)
I lettered it up and took it back out.
Got a call this morning saying some of the graphix were still not holding,... bubbling up in places.
I'm at a loss as to the fix on this awning. Is is outgassing or something? (which I'm not even sure what that means)
I'm getting the feeling that only portions of it are having problems. I will need to go out and take a look to get a truer picture of the problem.
I'm just not sure what my next step should be. Seems like the areas she said were coming up, were the ones I printed and applied last on the awning.
Any feedback would really be helpful because I'm running on empty on this job at this point.
I'm printing on oracal vinyl #3651M
~ janette
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
Some vinyl awning material has barrier coating or treatment on the surface to make it vinyl receptive. It is possible that this coating is gone.
Go back and remove the vinyl. Clean the surface with RapidPrep and then RapidTac2.
For vinyl, try a test with 3M180 vinyl. Apply dry.
The reason for using 3M180 is that for me it seems to stick a little tighter. Also, the air-channels in the adhesive side will help let any outgassing have a place to go without causing bubbles in the vinyl.
posted
well... if the word "outgassing" leaves you wondering... how about "plasticizer Migration" (don't ask, because it leaves me wondering too... but it may apply)
the other thing is "items I printed last"...
I've encountered edges curling up and away from substrates when I have not allowed ink to cure sufficiently before contour cutting. The solvent inks cure by releasing solvents back to the air, giving off that toxic smell... ans as this printed piece of vinyl goes through that transition, it shrinks, as it "dries" or cures. If it is not contour cut yet, the entire sheet tries to shrink, and then you cut it after it cures, you will have better results, but if it's cut before it shrinks, the shrinking tendency shows up in the form of curling away at the edges. This situation is far worse on ink bleeding off the edge of the cut, & particularly on darker colors with a greater ink deposit.
I 2nd what Glenn says about the cleaning tip. NOTHING but nothing goes on until I hit it with rapid products as a last step because I know 100% that's what they were made for. I'm done with guessing.
posted
Glenn, I just priced the 3m180, and since my supplier won't sell me less than 50 yds of it, that's just not going to be an option for a fix. What will rapid prep and rapid tac 2 exactly in my case here? Just curious. Will it act like an adhesive activator?
Doug, I just learned something new here ... but didn't know you could delay contour cutting. How do you do that? How long do you wait before cutting?
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Incidentally, I've found goof off hard to remove after using it. It could be a simple contamination issue. I use Rapid Removal for removal although there ARE quicker adhesive releases on the market. Cleaning the remover products right off with the right stuff makes a BIG difference.
Call TrimUSA. They'll sell it in 10yard rolls. No problems.
If you're printing it and don't want to invest in a roll, why not have a wholesaler print it for you? The company I use charges $5.50 per sqft including lamination.
As for the Rapid products, the Rapid Prep will remove any silicone and oily contamination from the surface. The RT2 will help provide a final surface prep. The adhesive seems to bond a bit tighter to the surface after a short period of time if the surface is given a final cleaning with RT2.
[ August 13, 2010, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
posted
if you laminated a print that also could be the problem. Lamination lately seems to be the beast of anything not sticking. laminate shrinks more than vinyl and will peel the print right off.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
Try a small area on the awning with some Krylon, clear spray, after it sets apply a small bit of vinyl to see if it holds. Make sure the Krylon, holds beforehand.
Just a thought...
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I don't see your vinyl being the problem. I had a problem with some similar material that was being used as a banner at the time.....vinyl just would not stick to that thing. It was as though there was some sort of teflon coating on it or something. I would test a hidden area with laquer thinner and see if that gets it off.
-------------------- Bruce Evans Crown Graphics Chino, CA graphics@westcoach.net Posts: 910 | From: Chino, CA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Jeanette, I recall you have had a VC since before I got my inkjet. I opted for a 2 part process. All my prints include registration marks for setting up the cuts after lamination. I always delay cutting 24-48 hrs. I believe VC's allow for Print & Cut on one machine, without removing the prints, but if you laminate i assumed you must have that option, so I'm not sure how a delayed cut is not already within your means.
posted
Downunder, Avery (Shhhh) makes/sells a self-adhesive vinyl for vinyl banner material/marquees/awnings etc.
It's different from the 'normal' cast vinyl in that the adhesive might be a water type rather than a solvent type-I'm not sure, but it definitely makes a difference using it, I find.
I just don't want to own heaps of rolls of different grades of the same coloour- two is enough- but I've had a couple of jobs where I used vinyl on banners, rather than paint, and I bought this Avery banner vinyl- it has a semigloss finish- and it was amazingly good.
We have not had any Avery failure or shrinkage problems, ever, like what happened over in North America a few years ago...
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
A few people suggested rubbing alchohol to really clean the surface. So, I'm going to try taking off the sections that are coming off, and clean again and reapply. Keeping my fingers crossed.
I'm really over this job. haha But I do want to make it right.
Thinking that painting this thing may be my next step.
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Hi Janette, Glen and Donna are "givin you the truth" (thanks guys!) the Goof Off is probably made with Xylene (oil derivitave) and leaves oil residue to "soak into vinyl surface".
Also Lacquer thinner,mineral spirits,other solvents etc. will soak into vinyl surface, only to outgass later if temperature changes (and not clean glue as fast and easy as Rapid Remover).
The Rapid TacII is a great cleaner even if you apply vinyl dry, but if you apply vinyl wet with Rapid Tac or TacII, you MUST first clean with one or the other (whichever your using)and a cheap kitchen paper towel.
Rapid Prep is a DEEP cleaning "water based solvent" designed for getting out wax,ooil, silicone,polymer,etc..
If you use Rapid Prep for vinyl prep, you MUST clean again with Rapid Tac or TacII, if you use Rapid Prep for cleaning prior to painting, you can clean and then paint.
There are some FREE videos on my site or at www.youtube.com/rapidtac take a couple minutes and learn what thousands have about avoiding problems, saving time and money and producing better quality!
Thanks,Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Janette...WOW..I can't believe after all these years that you don't have all of the Rapid products in your arsenal!!
Rapid Remover for getting rid of the adhesive. and Rapid Tac I or II for cleaning up.
There is nothing better available.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Rapid remover is the best glue remover since...... Well crap, its the best there is! Never seen anything that takes it off as good as this stuff. I use em all. Rapid prep and Rapid Tac also.
-------------------- Maker of fine signs and other creative stuff. Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave. Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-837-0242 Posts: 4172 | From: Ages-Brookside, Ky. Up the Holler... | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Nettie, the rapid tac activates the adhesive bond, making it stick even better. However, there are just some things that go on quicker and easier (for me) dry. I use tac on all my thick reflective stripes on firetrucks. No issues with stick-ability at all. In fact, the opposite.
Rapid Tac and Rapid Tac II work very differently from each other.
Tac gives you more time to slide things around and Tac II sets up MUCH quicker which is excellent for glass.
I go through Tac much quicker than Tac II and always buy everything by the gallon anyway, however maybe you can ask for a Tac II sample to see if you like/need it. In your climate, I'd think it may set up too quick.
posted
Like you Donna..I bought Roger's stuff by the gallon.
After 3 years of retirement I still have some left in WD40 spray containers (told ya Roger!!! )
And still use them for disolving and cleaning up road grime on our humble vehicles.
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
you could always try ty-coat or aquacoat. It should seal the awning. Then your vinyl should stick with no problems.
-------------------- Charles Borges de Oliveira Borges Lettering & Design Snohomish WA Posts: 352 | From: Snohomish WA | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Janette - DO NOT use laquer thinner to clean vinyl! I agree with Donna - you probably had a contamination problem by using Goof off and other cleaners to clean off the vinyl awning. Here's what I was told by my vinyl banner supplier - he said that when you use denatured alcohol, or mineral spirits to clean a vinyl banner product - you're actually harming the vinyl material - you're degrading it/breaking it down. He recommended to me to only use Isopropyl alcohol - it's 99% alcohol and will not harm the vinyl. So when you used Goof off, you probably harmed the vinyl awning - melted it just enough to make the vinyl graphics not able to grab and bond onto the awning. I would try the Rapid products. Use premium vinyl for the graphics, and it will probably work fine. Good luck!
-------------------- Kathy Weeks Weeks-End Signs & Graphics Lake Elmo, Minnesota Posts: 249 | From: Lake Elmo, Minnesota | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
okay, since I have already used every one of those solvents that have contaminated the vinyl. Would you suggest what Charles said, and use tycoat on it now, and reapply vinyl? Would coating it with clearshield first work? I have someo of that in stock?
Coating the awning is what I'm thinkking now that I've read thru the replies again.
Roger, thanks, I would love some samples. Will email my addy.
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
After reading Kathy's reply again ... I try laquer thinnner on parts of this awning. Does that mean those parts are not contaminated for good, or will cleaning them w/ rubbing alchohol or Rapid Prep and then using Rapid Tac II still work?
I'm confused!
Thinking I may need to paint this awning. Which presents a whole new set of questions I think. haha Whether to use vinyl inks or would one shot w/ frog juice work ... as it had in the past.
Why is this job making me feel like such a newbie???? Haven't I learned anything?
-------------------- "When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"
posted
Nettie, if this was my project, I'd remove the awning, remove the vinyl, remove the adhesive with Rapid Remover,get a bucket of warm soapy water and a big sponge and wash it well, then hit it with the pressure washer. After it dries, I'd take a piece of masking tape and test it in some of the former problem areas to see if it feels like it has full tack. If so, apply. If not, I'd apply the Ti-Cote or similar product. Without a solid clean surface it'll be questionable every time the phone rings.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Yea what Rick said...very few things will NOT come clean with good 'ol soapy water & some elbow grease...forget the "Rapid" whatever....Rapid Soak, or whatever the merchant here is peddling (sometimes feels like we're in an infomercial here for "Rapid" products)......save your money...nothing works like soapy water & elbow grease! I've been doing this stuff for over 20 years & I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.....
edited to add: If all else fails, go over it with a Brillo Pad......
[ August 16, 2010, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Carl Wood ]
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
I'm not challenging you Carl however there are a number of products or they're residues that soap and water just won't take off (especially off some types of painted substrates and p.v.c.film or vinyl)that are a bit porus. The list; silicon, polymer, teflon, wax,(some wax will eventually wash off, 5 to 10 washings),urethane grease , some sap, tar and some road film, to name some. Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Carl Wood: ...or whatever the merchant here is peddling (sometimes feels like we're in an infomercial here for "Rapid" products)......save your money...
funny thing to read from a visitor...
since this site wouldn't be here without funding... at least Roger helps fund it!
posted
Guys, Nettie is asking for help, not a ****ing contest.
Just my 2¢.....
There are cleaners designed specifically for awnings. If just soap & water were the answer, no one would have needed to have created cleaners just for awnings.
For the record, I have tried soap & water on my wife's business' awning. It didn't cut it. The dirt and mildew were just too baked in.
Most household cleaners are too harsh for vinyl awnings. They contain butyl cellusove which destroy the plasticizers that keep the awning material flexible. Basically, to save a few dollars you end up shortening the life of the awning.
Awning cleaners should be in the PH7 range.
I use Roger's products because they work and I know they won't harm the client's awnings. Is his stuff cheap? No, but neither am I.
Are there other products that will work just as well? Sure there are. And if that is what you prefer, by all means use them.
I just know that when I strip vinyl from a client's awning and apply new, I've never had a failure in the 10+ years I've used Roger's products. I recommend his stuff because I know they work and work well for me.
posted
Janette, Using Rapid Remover for the goo from now on is a great idea. I use it all the time, cleans good. After you re-clean this surface you may want to try Arlon DPF 8000 to print your image on. Sometimes you can get a full roll at a good price. It has an extra strong adhesive for hard to stick surfaces. If you laminate it with a Cast laminate it will not shrink very much.
posted
I'm sorry Carl, I certainly do not want to upset you or anyone else. I was having input on Janettes' question and joining in with everyone that responded, I thought we may have conversation (even with differing opinions)without confrontations. Sorry. Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
(don't ask, because it leaves me wondering too... but it may apply)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
However, there are just some things that go on quicker and easier (for me) dry. I use tac on all my thick reflective stripes on firetrucks. No issues with stick-ability at all. In fact, the opposite.![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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