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I have a customer who is building a horse drawn hearse carriage. It is mostly ash with some pine. He would like a gloss black finish on it.Any recommendations for primer? I'm leaning toward automotive urethane finish but am open to ideas. Thanks.
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I always use oil-based wood primer- something with a degree of flexability, for starters.
I've seen too many nicely painted carrriages done in urethanes, which after about four years start to open up at the joints and then start to chip off- partly doe to improperly dry timber, and partly due to inflexible paint not withstanding the working loads in the vehicle.
I have seen one job entirely in urethanes which was good, and it lasted very well, though.
A lot depends on the competence and patience and budget of the owner, and the painter.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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I agree with Stewey on the oil primer. Ash is an open grain wood and may need a wood filler to fill the pores before priming.......unless a lot of tiny dimples are ok.
Joe,
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
-------------------- Joe Cieslowski Connecticut Woodcarvers Gallery P.O.Box 368 East Canaan CT 06024 jcieslowski@snet.net 860-824-0883 Posts: 2345 | From: East Canaan CT 06024 | Registered: Nov 2001
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I'll second that Darcy. The automotive urethanes don't have the 'give' that wood requires. I'd be checking around the carriage and Amish sites to see what they use.
More on the line of furniture finishes; maybe nitrocellulose lacquers.....
Even some acrylics might be more forgiving than any catalyzed finish. They've come a long way.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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Wow, cool project, Darcy..You know Ian is awesome when he is a true artist mastering that craft! Well, you got some good advice coming here. Send some pics when he gets finished.
( I bet Ian would like that in any stage..right Ian?)
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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Sounds like a fun project and I complement you on the research to find the correct paint.
I have had good luck with with automotive catalized high build primers. With respect to cracking and pealing of paint, Matthews offers a flex additative, for their paints, to address just this problem.
Good luck,
Joe
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Don,t forget to try whatever method you choose on some scrap pieces before moving forward... Also I have used the same method as Joe, with the auto primers but the rigs I did were mostly for show. Some training units I painted,I chose to use strictly enamels with turps...
-------------------- Jack Wills Studio Design Works 1465 E.Hidalgo Circle Nye Beach / Newport, OR Posts: 2914 | From: Rocklin, CA. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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However, there are quite possibly some really good new formulations, better than 'the old way' that I'm familiar with.
It's just that we're expected to sort-of guarantee that it'll still be mickey-mouse in ten years' time, and it it's looking sad or cracked or chipped, well I have some embarrassed explaining to do...
Essentially no one can offer guarantees like that- but there are plenty of quicky people around whose work will fall off after four years- that's the problem.
I did find a clear urethane I think, that some veteran & vintage car blokes in Brisbane are now using on their wooden-spoked wheels- can't remember what it was offhand, but it was a very good product for varnished timber, under stress, and maintains a good weatherproof appearance.
It comes back to knowing the product, being patient, pretesting stuff, and the client's budget & expectations. I still tend to stick with enamels, but the quality of product IS declining. If I can find a good urethane that won't send me broke, I'll give it a go!
Hearses are 99% of the time painted black, and gloss black shows up every divet, dimple & imperfection in the paintwork- so it'll need to be well done.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Materials change so often there is probably more than 1 way to skin a cat. My client doesn't have particularly deep pockets but I will advise him we spend proper time on prep. You're right Stewey about black revealing every little imperfection. As I recall, Matthews was PPG repackaged under a different name (correct me if I'm wrong)and is available locally.A flex additive makes sense and testing sample pieces is always a good idea.Ted, it appears a lot of coachwork is brushed on rather than sprayed over your way. I may call Phil for a chat. Deb, enjoy your vacation!Thanks everyone for your input.
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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Stewie's mention of the clear reminded me of the success I have had with two part marine clears on some mahogany framed signs I did. I would think that anything made for wood boats finishes would work well on a carriage. Bet there's a forum for wood boat finishing.
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I was trusted to work on banners and a sign with Ian while I visited Ian's and Joan's home when I was at the meet in 2007.
Ian was mesmerizing to the crowd as he double pinstriped a wheel. Wow.
But I haven't posted so many things about the meet and my experiences as trying to write a little book about it all...just got sidetracked in life and not know how to upload pics. Nonetheless, I want to share that Ian is very methodical about his work and detail oriented. I'm not surprised that he is one of the masters of restoration of those carriages.
There were quite a few different types of carriages at the meet, in the barn and outside. The one inside that was finished looked as though it were brand new. Oh, they were fabulous; pictures don't do them justice.
To flatter Ian and Joan a little more, the children are so delightful to be around. They worked together happily the entire meet and what a treasure it was to stay at their home for a week. Having children and grandchildren myself, I could truly admire what I experienced in a very loving, gifted, and amazing family.
(and the carriage restoration work is truly a labor of love, you can certainly tell).
[ January 16, 2010, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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Here are a few pics of the project. He built it from ash rather than oak to be lighter so it could be pulled with 1 horse rather than 2. It has been in a dry shop for 3 years so hopefully the wood has dried out enough. He used different features from 3 or 4 vintage hearses and updated the suspension and brakes.
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
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Great-looking vehicle- very nice- and I'm really glad it's not me having to wet-and-dry sand the background all around those ornamental bits and up the spirals- one thing I can tell you is painting a hearse, properly, is painstakingly tedious- well the sanding is!
PS The only thing I'll request, is don't cover it in lines with feathered ends, or modern-looking scrolls or striping. They were classy & sedate- understated to the point of being plain in the striping department.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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It feels good to see craftsman ship like this. Glad to see you'll have a part in the final project.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
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