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A recent post had some people mentioning that they don't like their blade signs to be free-swinging. I'm doing a sandblasted sign 4' x 5' on cedar with a wrought iron frame and single pole. What are your thoughts - to swing or not to swing..........?
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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NOT! We have Central Illinois winds here and when a 45 mph gale come blustering in, we grit our teeth and wait for the calls. We only have a few out there that swing because we try to refuse to do them that way. And if we do have to, we remind them that we advised against that and can't be resposible for the damage the sign might cause. Even a lighter wind gets the sign rocking and there is just too much chance for it to rock itself loose.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Make the hanger rigid so it doesn't bounce. Chains and other bouncy hangers are bad news in the wind. I've had an 1 1/2" sandblasted redwood sign snap in half. After I mended it I wrapped the hanger all the way around the ends of the sign got rid of the S hooks and it has been fine ever since -- I think (hahahahah!!)
I tend to overdo installations around here so that I avoid that late night calls. I've seen some weird stuff.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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I never hang a swinging sign. I use one simple rule......If it can move, it can wear or break.
-------------------- Dana Blair Blair Signs Wooster, OH www.blairsigns.com
If sign makers go on strike, is there anything written on their picket signs? Posts: 835 | From: Wooster, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 1999
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LOL. Sorry to comment on the "swingers" topic. BUT...
We were sitting on the beach the other day watching cruise ship people arriving.
We then noticed there was a lot of topless ladies..kinda rare here.
THEN there was some "interesting" activity on the beach.
Shirl and I were kinda surprised and amused and wide eyed.
Turned out that the ship was carrying 150 "swingers"
I thought "swinging" went out in the late 70's Apparently not.
We don't condemn nor condone. But it WAS a fun group of folks to talk to.
I am sure Steve woulda loved the beach that day!!! LOL
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
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Swinging allows some of the windload to slide off a sign. I figure the top bracket needs to be 1.5 times stronger than if you have two brackets (top and bottom), but it is less expensive (since you're only installing one bracket).
I've never had any problems with any of my swinging (hanging) signs, and the winds in San Francisco are just as bad as anywhere else (well, maybe not in hurricane country...).
Make sure if it swings that it can't hit the wall, and if you use S-hooks use heavy ones and crimp the ends closed.
If a sign is too heavy it wont swing much, and so it wont slough off any of the wind (which is part of the reason to let it swing). 1/2" and 3/4" MDO seems to work fine, Dibond/composite panels seem to work well, and thin cedar signs do. Large cedar signs just hang there. If a sign is too thin or too light it can "flap" more than you want and then its just annoying.
I just re-lettered a 10 year old Dibond panel, 28" x 40", and its been fine (and so have its four brothers on the same brick wall).
-------------------- :: Scooter Marriner :: :: Coyote Signs :: :: Oakland, CA :: :: still a beginner :: :: Posts: 1356 | From: Oakland (and San Francisco) | Registered: Mar 2001
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Yeah, Sonny, I think swinging signs are OK, if done properly...like Joe's seems to be. I run the straps all the way down the sides.You can even wrap around the bottom if you want. No chain; loops or s-hooks.
Beautiful, Joe.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
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I guess I'm a swinger, Sonny. I'm not into chains though. I agree with the comments about letting the sign swing to lower wind pressure and overengineering if the sign doesn't swing.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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I agree with JD - there's nothing wrong with a swing that's done correctly.
The two major points of failure on a swing are the attachment of the sign to the bracket, and the attachment of the bracket to the wall or post. The most common mistake with signs made from HDU or cedar is thinking that thickness adds strength - it doesn't. A successful DF HDU swing has some form of laminate core or internal support. I advocate using flat 1/4" steel flat bars, two vertical and two horizontal, set into routed channels on the back of the two sign faces, which are then glued back to back. The upper ends of the vertical steel bars stick out of the top of the sign about an inch to an inch and a half, enough to have clearance for a hole through the steel for attachments to the bracket. A sign made of cedar could have the same arrangement. The idea is that structural load is carried by structural material, not by signmaking material. Anyone who wants details of how I do this can call or email me.
Two - there's no such place where it's NOT windy. ; Designing for wind load goes all the way through the connection of the sign to the stationary object (wall or post). The swing points between sign and bracket should NEVER be chains! Keep the links as short as possible. I have not used S hooks in years; instead i use stainless steel quick links, which have a positive threaded closure. No amount of wind opens or breaks them.
I have dozens of swinging signs out there - wood, HDU and MDO - and, no offense, but I'm not getting late night phone calls about them.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Multiple pivot points permit the sign to hammer on the fasteners and lead to failure. If mountings are designed creating a joint where the swinging occurs at one point there is far less to wear r out. We often use these polypropolene bushings that also prevent any creaking sounds when the sign swings.
Any of you ever had complaints about noise inside the building because of a swinging sign? I've had 'em where I heard nothing standing under the sign, but inside it sounded like a loud eerie moaning. The vibration was transmitted through the bracket into the wall that acted as an amplifier
I prefer spilling the wind load.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Let them swing. All good points here on how to do it right. But one thing...I hate "check chains" and won't do them, if it's a swinger let it swing, otherwise make it a fixed sign, check chains are just asking for trouble.
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Rick, I had that noise issue with a swing in downtown Mystic, by the drawbridge. The bracket was bolted to the wall between two windows of a 2nd floor apartment, and according to the tenant, it moaned and creaked like a grade-b horror film. Ended up making a second bracket for underneath the sign to fix it rigid.
I built a fairly big carved wood sign (4'x7') back in 1992, that was hung from an existing steel post and bracket. The client absolutely insisted, against my strong objections, on having me put a big eyebolt in the side of the sign so it could be fixed and not swing. Because it was hung on big steel rings on the top, it would have swung slightly, enough to relieve wind pressure - but with that fixture on the side, it just twisted and strained until the eyebolt pulled out of the sign, taking a chunk of the sign with it. This damn sign has been patched and re-attached at least once a year since it went up (not by me; I've done a lot of other work for this client, but she insists on having her own staff work on it.) It looks like hell, having been repeatedly damaged on that side. Had the sign been installed properly - either solidly fixed on two posts, or left to move - none of that damage would have happened.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Thanks for the info everyone. I'm having a wrought iron frame fabricated around the sign that will extend above and become the hanger. I was thinking about running a threaded rod thru both ends and attaching that to the crossbar, thereby making it an "axle" instead of 2 pivot points. Any thoughts?
I'll try to post a pic later........
-------------------- www.signcreations.net Sonny Franks Lilburn, GA 770-923-9933 Posts: 4115 | From: Lilburn, GA USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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The axle idea is a good one. The idea is to make the connections act as a hinge, rather than as multiple links.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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