posted
For Starters - I would really appreciate keeping this post on topic and clear of rants regarding stupid customers and such. I will possibly be using some of the information here for an insurance claim. However, I would appreciate honest feedback as to what may have caused this damage, in particular any errors on my part.
In April I shipped a fairly large order (~$5000)of signs to a client. Yesterday I received a phone call that they had finally unwrapped their signs and they were ruined. The signs were done on blue dibond with red alkyd gloss industrial with reflective vinyl.
I'm wondering if the damage could have been caused by error on my part. I don't think it was caused by faulty products as I have used this combination successfully for a number of years. Other signs from the same batch of Dibond and roll of vinyl are as far as I know perfectly fine. I believe the damage was somehow caused due to the inability of the materials to breathe. In the future all signs leaving this shop will have "Please inspect immediately and report any damage or problems within 10 days of receipt"
I will be taking possession of the damaged signs and have asked them to leave one set wrapped so I can inspect the materials for water damage etc. I'm wondering about chemical reactions caused by outgassing if the paint was insufficiently cured, the use of brown craft paper between the signs for shipping or any other insight you can provide.
Here is a picture of the damage.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hiya Kelly, OUCH! That's gotta hurt. Did the reflective stick to the craft paper and lift off? It's tough to tell from the picture.
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kelly, your pic is too low of a resolution to be able see the damage. Can you post a higher rez pic? Something more along the lines of 400x750 pixels?
Also, if you don't want to post the big pic, maybe put a link to the full-rez photo...
[ August 27, 2008, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
My guess is that they're not entirely "ruined", and that these were stacked upside down ( top edge nearest to the floor). I would try wiping down the red cast reflective letters with mineral spirits, followed by a follow-up wipe using Methyl Hydrate ( wood alcohol). I would think that all of that red smudging will come off cleanly.
The cause was probably the client not unwrapping these as soon as they were received. Any red that wasn't thoroughly cured gave off some fumes that were absorbed by the interleaved Kraft paper, which then transferred to the top-coat varnish on the reflective material. ( Capilliary action ). As long as the top-coat varnish isn't too receptive to the red that was transferred, it is probably cleanable. If the red was absorbed by the varnish, however, it won't be salvageable.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
This is the best I can do for resolution until I get the signs. The silver that causes the glass beads to reflect seems to have dissapeared. I've seen the silver tarnish if it has had moisture trapped under there, but this just seems to have evaporated.
Also there is damage to the vinyl in areas that were applied directly to the dibond. I'm not sure if they were packed facing an area that was painted, although there would have been brown craft paper between them. Could the acid in the paper have caused this? I usually leave the protective film on the backs of the Dibond for shipping, could it have reacted? From what I can tell the damage is sporatic although fairly extensive.
Just from the "pattern" of the damage I'm guessing water damage, but should that occur after the vinyl was installed?
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi again Kelly. If you haven't yet taken posession of these signs, and they're still in the posession of the complainant, you might try to clean them up there before writing them off as damaged goods. If you want to attempt an on-site recovery, I'd take a flatsanding block, and wrap it in felt, rather than sandpaper. This will provide a flat absorbant surface which will absorb enough solvent to scrub off only the surfave of the reflective letters. Try using a couple of different solvents ( Mineral Spirits, Rapid Remover, Alcohol ). Hopefully, you might get pleasantly surprised by the result.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ken, now that I think of it, one of the customers comments was that it looked like overspray, I automatically assumed it was the fault of the reflective, but you may well be right. However if that is the case it did the same with the dibond finish as the letters on the blue appear to have a bluish caste to the damaged areas. I've emailed and asked for them to take a closer look and let me know which it is as well as to try and clean with mineral spirits if it is red on the top of the vinyl. It would be great if that was the case as the shipping alone on these will cost me a couple of hundred dollars.
The customer was understandably upset when he called, and I think my reluctance to commit to anything until I could see the signs myself upset him furthur. If it is my fault I should be able to make an insurance claim. I've been paying a premium for 17 years with no claims so it should only make a small difference on my premium.
Bill for the time being I would prefer not to get into brands. At this time I really don't think it has anything to do with the brand of vinyl, but should I suspect that at a later date I would like to be able to try for some compensation. In the meanwhile I'd rather not be the catalyst to give what I consider a good brand of vinyl a bad rap.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ken You slipped a post in on me again. I guess I need to take less time rereading and thinking about my posts.
The signs are over 400 kms from me, so it likely would be more cost effective to have them sent back. I'm very curious to see what their reply is. Thanks for the suggestions though, I'm hoping that may be the answer.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
are those lighter speckles water spots or blisters?
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't know Curtis. I realize that the photo is sketchy, but I am trying to decide whether to put the money into having them shipped back or not. If I try to make an insurance claim, an adjuster can look at them up there. I'm just trying to figure out what happened and that's hard without the puzzle in front of me and a frustrated customer on the other end.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
When you say make an insurance claim, are you saying that the post or UPS would accept responsibility for the damage? IF you specifically paid for insurance from them, then maybe, but I hope you aren't going to try to get your business policy to pay on them. I doubt that will happen. We had a window break one time WHILE Bill was working on it and the insurance guy said that if a coat rack had fallen against it when Bill had turned to dip his brush it would have been covered but since he was working on it, it was in his "care, custody and control" (I'll never for get THAT phrase!) and it was our fault and we would have to pay for it. A $600 window at Christmas time was a rough Christmas for OUR family! By the way, we no longer have that insurance agent! That is truly strange, how the color just vanished from the vinyl! I might suspect some type of outgassing problem or reaction with the red if it were painted, but if it were vinyl to vinyl, that is strange.
-------------------- Jane Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, Il. 61764 815-844-7024 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 4102 | From: Pontiac, IL USA | Registered: Feb 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Since you plan on possibly making an insurance claim, I'd have them ship back one for you to analyze. This would allow you to check out the situation, and see if it can be corrected, before submitting a claim and having to replace them. You are going to want to know exactly what is going on anyway, before you make a new batch.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged |
I spoke to my insurance agent today and she said that the damage would be covered if it can be proved it was caused by negligence or an error on my part. Part of my policy covers liability and property damage. I also suspect that the clients insurance will cover it if the same applies to them.
I've never tried to claim on my insurance before, but I don't anticipate an easy sell on this.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ya, I'm sorry to say that it's gonna be a tough one Kelly, no matter how it plays out.
More than likely, your vendors will do nothing but try to pass the blame and point fingers at each other, you or the client. So, I think you and/or your client are going to get burned in one form or another.
Did the client open and review all of the signs? If so, do they all show some sort of similar damage? How important of a client is this?
Judging by what you already said, you're dealing with an already unhappy camper. So, no matter what you do, short of a full replacement at no cost or a refund, he's not going to be happy. Also, if you request anything more of him, he probaably is only going to become more upset. So, be careful on how you approach this.
I would contact the material supplier and inform him of the situation, asking for his advice on the proper way to potentially handle a claim from the manufacturer. If you purchased the supplies from more than one distributor, contact the one that you do the most business with. From here, just about anything could go.
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had something real close to identical happen but on outdoor signs and vehicle graphics (same roll for both). I lost all the color on the reflective and you could see the substrate color underneath....but both were out in the sun. The vinyl company said that there had been no UV protection used.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just for curiosities sake I'm going to see if I can recreate the problem with the same materials by wrapping them up for a couple of months.
Two people have commented on the paper.... is this a know cause of trouble? I've always been reluctant to use plastic because I worry that it will stick if the package gets exposed to too much heat.
Can someone explain to me the components of reflective vinyl? I know there is adhesive, glass beads, vinyl and a clear coat, but what is the silver? In what ways can moisture effect the silver?
I'm not really eager to start trying to get compensation from the suppliers. That makes two assumptions, 1st that the materials were in some way faulty which 2nd in turn passes off the responsibility for the damage to me. At this point I am not ready to assume liability, I'm just willing to be open to all possibilities, be it faulty material, faulty installation, faulty shipping or faulty storage.
[ August 28, 2008, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kelly, this may be the best thing to do. I would get in touch with the vinyl maker and let them know what happened,and ask for their advice.
Then I'd go to the customers location and check for myself, the various conditions involved with the handling of the signs. Check for water stains on the ceiling of the storage facility, to verify the possibility of water damage, etc. Also check for ventilation of the storage area. If it was hot, no vents, and water damaged, the combination of these conditions could all play a role in the damage. Take photos of everything and have a witness of your choosing with you at all times. Document everything twice! Good Luck and let us know how it turns out. Don
-------------------- Donald Miner ABCO Wholesale Neon 1168 Red Hill Creek Dobson, NC Posts: 842 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
"In what ways can moisture effect the silver?" That's why you need to have it in hand to see if it really is an "overspray" or a corrosion from the back. I have seen defective reflective that ended up being "transparent" looking due to the corrosion of the silver layer. Maybe same effect can come from still outgassing paint in an enclosed package.
posted
If it was outgasing from the paint it would have affected the second line of text the same way as the top one,no? The moisture from above theory seems to make more sense considering the damage pattern.
posted
I guess I must be really stupid or something. This is reflective material used for the making of signs and if the material gets wet, it goes bad???? Uhhh, is this stuff made for indoor reflective signs?
Is edge sealing a requirement of this brand of vinyl? If not, the crap is bad.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
You can clearly see water droplets all over that sign especially on that second picture. I think Lotti is onto something. It looks like moisture entered from the top of the sign and has been sitting for a long time. If it was sealed up in a package for that long, they are lucky it isn't all moldy.
My guess is that the moisture started seeping into the back of the reflective vinyl and has reacted with the aluminum. We were always taught not to apply reflective vinyl wet so that the backing would not corrode. I'm thinking that is what has happened.
I would say the blame lies with whoever spilled the water on the sign and then let it sit there for a few months.
Good luck, Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well folks, I have the signs in my possession. When I shipped the signs they were wrapped face to face with brown craft paper in between in order to keep the reflective from rubbing against itself. The edges were protected with 6" strips of coroplast by slitting one side of two flutes to form a channel which was wrapped around the edges. The purpose if this was to keep the edges from being dinged in transit. The customer leaned the signs against the side of a storage shed where they sat unopened for close to four months. Some rain managed to get in along the corners and because they were not allowed to breathe the signs stayed wet for a long period of time. The paper served to wick the moisture up and keep the signs damp. Moisture was obviously the number one culprit here. I don't think it was the only one however. The dibond in the damaged areas has also been affected and I am not sure how compromised it is. The finish has a pebbled or very fine orange peeling to it and there is a "bagged" effect evident in the glossiness of the finish. The painted areas are unaffected. I suspect that the paper may have migrated some of the solvents from the paint onto the surface of the dibond. Who is to blame? Definitely the customer holds a share of it for not inspecting the signs and for storing them in a manner that they could stay wet for a long period of time . This caused damage ranging from blackening of the vinyl to complete disintegration of the aluminum layer leaving a transparent film under the glass beads. However the solvents in the particular paint used likely played a part in allowing the moisture to permeate the finish of the reflective. The damage to the Dibond affirms the fact that there was more than moisture in play. My method of manufacturing definitely voided the instructions given by the vinyl manufacturer. Realistically I haven't got the time to allow the paint to dry for even close to the suggested period (one month after cure). Other warnings in regards to plasticiser migration from certain paints and vinyls (yes vinyls!) compromising the surface of the reflective, tarnishing caused by touching the reflective and then applying it to an area that is exposed to warm or moist conditions, disclaimers as to how the warranty is limited to replacement value of the vinyl only, etc. etc. made me feel that approaching the manufacturer of the vinyl would be a fruitless effort. I highly suggest everyone takes the time to read the manufacturers information of the products they use, but in the real world I doubt that those application rules can or will be followed.
I think it would be difficult to prove to insurance that all the blame lies on my shoulders. In the end the simplest and probably most economical solution is to simply replace the vinyl, although it will be a chore to remove the damaged vinyl. I will be forwarding pictures to my supplier who will in turn forward them to the vinyl rep. I may be able to get replacement vinyl. I have agreed to fix the signs N/C. Although I don't feel I shoulder the bulk of the responsibility, my reputation for commitment to customer service and standing by my product seems worth the effort to maintain. The customer has been alerted that this will absolve me of any future failures due to this situation. It's by no means a win/win, but the best I can make of the situation. Thanks to everyone for their input and support. It never fails to amaze me how many "quiet" people respond from behind the scenes. It makes me realize how big a resource this board is.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
It sucks that you have to eat this, but I think that's a very professional way to handle it.
This is a perfect time for everyone to take another look at their paperwork and make sure it says "Shortages or damaged goods must be reported in _ days".
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I already have some notes at the bottom of my invoice form in regards to usage of art, payment terms etc. I have now added a disclaimer to that which states that all work must be opened, inspected and any claims made within 5 days of delivery.
I will also be printing up an information sheet with instuctions for storage and mounting that will be included with the invoices for the appropriate signs. Finally I will clearly mark any wrapped signs with the same information, as often the invoice goes to another facility and communication may not happen.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think there are several factors combined that caused the damage.
From your standpoint, I don't think this would have happened if the paint had cured long enough before lettering it. Cured oil based paint and relective vinyls are two of the toughest outdoor durable components out there. Signs to my knowledge don't need to breathe unless curing is still taking place.
The moisture from the way it was stored (wrapped up AND wet) probably inhibited the curing process. Slowed it down if you will, hence the bleeding.
Reflectives don't neccesarily have to go on dry, but the manufactures like to say this due to the fact that if excessive moisture is not removed during a wet install, a deterioration of metal beads result. Because the board was curing (damp) PLUS being stored in wet conditions (double wet), there was no chance for the reflective to stay dry. Hence, the metal of the reflective reacted.
I've delivered 'still curing' signs before due to a rush job however I delivered them unwrapped and encouraged my customer to 'leave them be', warm AND dry as is for awhile until fully cured. (no fingernail dent possible)
I'd be curious to see if the same thing happened lettering a very cured sign sample.
Take your pick. Signs not cured plus wet storage plus customer wasn't told HOW to store the still curing signs... just an unfortunate mix all at the same time.
It's my bet simply relettering the signs will work just fine, IF you can remove it ok. Reflectives off a board not fully cured can be a tough recipe to overcome.
Sorry for your misfortune Kelly. And thanks for posting this. It's a great reminder for all!
[ September 08, 2008, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
posted
How long did you let the paint dry? Did you spray it or roll it? With or without hardener? What type of reducer did you use? Would it have been an option to use colored dibond and vinyl overlays vs paint?
I worked in a shop where the "painter" was the boss's kid and thought he knew everything about painting. He took a gallon of Dupont green and painted aluminum sheets-straight from the can. Yeah, 5 days later the paint was still wet, any reasons why????(that was sarcastic).
Unless you used a temperature variant reducer (low temp or hi temp vs the conditions) incorrectly and applied vinyl too soon or didn't add hardener or the proportions were way off incorrect, or installed waaay to soon after painting, I really don't see this as being your issue.
I have seen reflective go on tankers less than 24 hours after they were painted and the outgasssing (as you can't fit a tanker into a heat booth) did discolor the reflective.
Obviously, something happened with the wet storage, but I am inclined to think that the lack of airflow, combined with the osmosis of the water and outgassing was the final straw.
What paint type did you use? It would be interesting to set up a bunch of scenarios( I do this all the time)to brutally test crazy situations that these signs would end up in.
-------------------- Nikki Goral Image Advantage Signs 4050 Champeau Road New Franken, WI 54229 920-465-4500 "Finish every day and be done with it. Tomorrow is a new day."-Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 928 | From: New Franken, WI (East Green Bay) | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The interesting part is the paint dried from over 3 weeks to 3 days (the order placed and added to over a couple of months, but the vinyl was all installed just before shipping). There isn't a difference that I can see. They all seem to be pretty much the same for damage. The damage is in a wavy line that goes across the bottom. The paint itself is the only thing that wasn't damaged. The dibond has a hazing and a bit of a bagged effect below the damaged vinyl. There isn't any difference between the damage on the first batch painted and the last batch. The signs were wrapped in the three batches, so one batch had dried for at least three weeks before the vinyl was applied. They were rolled with no hardener or reducer using the same system I have used for the past seven(?) years. In other words the exact same process using the exact same paints and exact same vinyl on Dibond. What has never happened before is the signs having moisture trapped on them for four months. I haven't the time or desire to try and recreate the situation. With the amount of signs I have done using this same system eventually there was bound to be something go wrong. Unfortunately it happened to a big order rather than the one or two that are usually ordered. I'll take steps to see it isn't repeated.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kelly, We just had this same damage to vehicle lettering. Only a small portion was damaged on two vehicles on exactly the same location (back right quarter-panel.)
This is very strange because there is vinyl all around the vehicle with no damage.
What kind of reflective did you use?
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Laura Butler: I had something real close to identical happen but on outdoor signs and vehicle graphics (same roll for both). I lost all the color on the reflective and you could see the substrate color underneath....but both were out in the sun. The vinyl company said that there had been no UV protection used.
Did they mean that the roll was defective? What kind of vinyl did you use?
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I guess I need to take less time rereading and thinking about my posts. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic