posted
I recently moved my business into a hundred year old house. It is supplied with gas, but I refuse to use it because this place isn't very well insulated. (I've been using electric space heaters, but that's proving pretty costly too) However, there are several fireplaces in here, none of which are safe or sound to use as fireplaces. I'm researching installing a wood stove/heater, as I have a really cheap source for firewood (and I'm a pyromaniac anyway) I window shopped online yesterday, and Northern Tools seemed to have the best prices/selection that I found. The space I need to heat is less than 2000 sq. ft.Does anyone have a good idea of a better source for wood stoves? Or any other suggestions?
-------------------- Nancie W. Phillips White Dove Painting Studio 74 Dacula Road, Dacula, GA 30019 678-887-3339
I know I'll get flack for this but, I heat my shop with coal in a nice antique coal stove.
Burns cleaner than wood not to mention when I first moved into my shop which is a tiny old barn from aroun 1900 or so, there was no insulation and this thing was made for buildings with out any insulation.
You may be able to find one locally, just make sure it is safe.
Here is a link to the guy who restored mine, so you can see what I mean. Stove hospital
By the way I bought my stove for $500 with total nickle restored and all, so they are out there.
[ February 01, 2008, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just be careful about having a woodburner. Make sure to check with your insurance agent before installing one. My homeowner's policy will not cover a house with a wood burner!
I have a wonderful old overhead Reznor gas heater from a department store in my garage. Makes it warmer than my living room. Only problem is, I haven't been able to afford to turn it on for two winters now! I use kerosene torpedo heaters when they work, and also electric heaters which are about as effective as tits on a boar.
Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Right now we have an exterior propane tank and it runs an overhead heating in our shop. Does ok with the space, but we will be installing a heat pump so we can have AC in the summer too.
-------------------- Cody Reich Columbia Signs Posts: 300 | From: Vancouver, WA | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
I used to use a Oil forced air heater. I used to fill up the tank for $300...this year fillin git up was over $700. No way. I switched to an old homemade wood stove that a farmer had for his shop. I already had the chiney so I knocked out the hole and fit the pipe in. It has been the best thing I ever did. The fuel oil I purchased in October for over $700 is still there, didn't use a drop. I did spend $300 in good Oak firewood that has gotten me thru the very very coldest of days. I love the smell, the heat, and the SAVINGS! Yeah sure, it's work. I don't mind.
My wood stove is probably not covered on my insurance like Jill said. I will be re-doing my chiney and heat sorce for my back room as well this summer....the outdoor wood burners that pipe in the water is a real popular source here in Minnesota. Bob, I would like to try coal but we can't get it here like you can in your area.
The wood takes work, and time, but it's a good payoff.
-------------------- Mike Meyer Sign Painter 189 1st Ave n P.O. Box 3 Mazeppa, Mn 55956
We are not selling, we are staying here in Mazeppa....we cannot re-create what we have here....not in another lifetime! SO Here we are!!!!!!!
posted
I actually saw a couple of models that burned coal and/or wood. I'd consider it, even more now. And Mike, I'm with you, I love the smell and don't mind the workout of cutting my own wood either. I think I could use a wood burner here with little effect on the insurance, as long as it was safely installed.
-------------------- Nancie W. Phillips White Dove Painting Studio 74 Dacula Road, Dacula, GA 30019 678-887-3339
posted
When we lived in a house with a fireplace in town we bought a Norwegian Jotel fireplace stove. Its a fully enclosed stove and you pipe the smoke up the chimney. Because it is sealed all your heat doesn't go up the chimney like a open fireplace. Some folks around here and in farming areas use corn stoves, my cousin has one and loves it you fill a hopper with corn and it feeds itself. I don't know how the costs compare to wood, they grow their own corn on the farm. Mikey didn't you have a corn stove once?
We now heat the shop and house with propane, solar and wood, we have a forty acre supply out back.
I'm a little ****ed at the propane company, their driver destroyed the bridge coming into our property Wednesday. We've been landlocked for the past couple of days while I rebuilt the bridge in the below zero weather, I just came in from finishing it. It was a unique excuse not to see customers the last couple of days. I'm going to burn a little more wood to keep the propane trucks away I guess.
-------------------- Silver Creek Signworks Dick Bohrer Two Harbors, MN Posts: 236 | From: Two Harbors, MN USA | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
We have over head radiant heaters in our shop the cost to heat with propane went through the roof. So last year we put in a 170,000 BTU corn stove so far the corn runs about 1/3 the cost of propane. We use about 600 bushel of corn per year. Plus we buy the corn from local farmers instead giving our money to the big propane suppliers. We try to keep the money local if we can
-------------------- Dennis Raap Raap Signs Posts: 839 | From: Coopersville, MI | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I feel really chilly and sad at times, cause I don't have any heat in my shop, unless I open the doors on a sunny day. But...when I see the bills I DON'T get every month, I get all warm and toasty inside.
Sorry, but I spent about 50 winters in Ohio, and enough is enough.
-------------------- Dale Feicke Grafix 714 East St. Mendenhall, MS 39114
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me." Posts: 2963 | From: Mendenhall, MS | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5273 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
First, I'd be very leary of anything that comes from Northern Tool and has the potential to burn your house down. NT isn't exactly top-quality, it's basically a 1/2 step above the traveling tool trailers. For light use tools, it's not a bad choice, but when it comes to something that could burn your house down.....
Jill's right, you really need to check with your insurance company. Not only do a lot of them not like woodburners, they also won't cover a building if a space heater, such as kerosene or a torpedo heater are used either.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Spend the money on insulation ...it's worth every nickle of it in the long haul then look for a central heat unit from a mobile home about the same size you want to heat...they are realitively inexpensive (especially a used one) Place it in a corner and run the same type of duct they use in the trailers across and around the room.
The duct can run around at base board level or at the ceiling and is easy to install.
These heaters come in electric or gas... your choice.
[ February 02, 2008, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
i have a used mobile home furnace for sale. and an air conditioner. they have to be removed from my burned trailer. they are not hurt.
-------------------- Jimmy Chatham Chatham Signs 468 stark st Commerce, Ga 30529 Posts: 1766 | From: Commerce, GA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
I'm no expert in this field but I have a wood burner and have wrestled with your concerns.
If this was your perminent location, an oil burner would be a consdieration. The cost of waste oil delivered to your shop is very cheap. However, due to the set-up cost I'd doubt it would be a consideration.
I purchased one of the Vermont Casting stoves a few years ago and it's a dream. Never smokes, even with doors open. Mine is the "Dutch Burner" model which comes with a catalitic converter. This cleans up the exhaust. I paid $1,100.00.
You might be able to back the stove up to one of your chimneys and thread the exhaust pipe out there. That's what I did. It's a strait forward process.
Like Jill says there is allways an insurance consideration. She's always right. Good lookin too.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
I've gone through several high quality cast stoves, Jotal, Waterford, etc. Cast stoves have many qualities of metal and you can't tell just by looking. They expand and contract at differing rates and if you heat them too fast they crack. The inner baffle plates are usually the first part to go. For a shop that you don't keep the fire always going, I'd suggest a welded steel stove with a 3/8" thick top and a cast door. At home our Lopi has proved well over tha past 22 years. Our shop stoves have been locally made from old propane tanks. (Not to be touched without proper flushing) Having a means to prevent all the heat from going up the pipe is something to look for. Spend the time to search for both quality and efficiency, it'll be well worth it over the years.
Next topic is stove pipe. Double or triple walled where it goes through the ceiling. I like single walled stainless from the stove to the ceiling. Use the approved pipe like Metalbestos. This is not a place to try to get by cheaply.
Then, learn how to build a fire and work the vents.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rick has a very good point about stove pipes.
In our last shop we moved our stove across the shop, about 50 feet and angled the stove pipe up across the room. That was an un-insulated pipe. It increased the heat output dramatically. Of course we used the insulated type at the top.
Another advancement with the new stoves is the catalytic converter. When it heat up, and is activated, the increase in heat output is amazing.
Prior to my woodburner, I purchased a pellet stove. After a week it went back in exchange for the real thing. They are much cleaner and easier to fuel. Within a few minutes of no fuel, however, they go dead.
I know Rick agree's with me on this; The quality of heat from one of these stoves is hard to express. It goes to the bones.
-------------------- Joe Crumley Norman Sign Company 2200 Research Park Blvd. Norman, OK 73069 Posts: 1428 | From: 2200 Research Park Blvd. | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
For small electric space heaters, the ones that heat up oil and look like little radiators are the best. They take longer to heat up but they are much more efficient.
Jill, those kerosene torpedoes are nothing but trouble if you hand letter! When I used to do a lot of race cars on site, if their heat was a torpedo, I'd refuse to do the job until they got another type of heat or it warmed up.
Another option for heating a small space like a garage is a motel heating/cooling unit. They can be picked up used for about $250. They will easily heat a one or two car garage plus you get a/c for the summer. You do need a hole to an outside wall the dimensions of the unit.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
What keeps the corn from popping? I think you should insulate if feasible. We had a coal stove and wood the coal was slower to start but easier to run and more even heating. When I put dry corn in dry heat it pops and burnt popcorn stinks.
posted
Back in '78 we had a multi-fuel furnace installed, to replace a totally inadequate unit. This was between the two oil embargos, and fuel prices weren't real stable.
One end is a firebox for either wood or coal, the other end is an oil burner, with a common heat exchanger. Each end has a thermostat, one for controlling the oil burner, the other controls the air damper under the wood/coal side.
Heat with either fuel was uneven until we had cold air returns installed from all the rooms---originally, there was only one.
An internet search a couple of years ago comparing heat sources versus cost per million BTUs heat output showed coal to be the clear winner. Since petroleum costs are headed for the moon again, and coal is for the moment fairly stable, I think coal is an even better heat source cost-wise. With heating oil now over $3 a gallon locally, I don't mind the aggravation of bringing coal/wood in and ash disposal. The best part is that the house/shop is warmer for lower cost.
FWIW
bill preston
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
In many areas there are emission standards. Where I live we can still burn wood, but I think there are stops on it in new construction. We need a secondary heat source also, whether or not we use it. I assume coal burning doesn't fit in with any "clean air" standards. I remember it burning hotter than most woods and longer, and generating a very industrial smell when you go outdoors. Might do well to consider any neighbors that could be downwind.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6712 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
George, belive me, I never use a torpedo heater when hand-lettering. Fisheye city if you do! When I have a paint job, if it fits in the house, it gets painted there. Glad you brought that up! Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
The town next to ours will no longer issue permits to install wood fired boilers that are located in their own separate building. I guess the epa has a problem with them. Coal is a little stinky when your outside and get a whiff of it. I remember boot camp at Ft Know Ky. I would gag during pt as all the barracks had coal boilers. But I liked the coal here at home more than wood.
If you have acreage where you can get free wood then the wood might look better. All the work cutting, and splitting, and hauling, and stacking, and hauling, and loading can save on gym membership!
I haven't been in the shop a-lot this winter but I have an older hot air furnace OIL FIRED. It heats up fast and I leave it at 50 degrees when I'm not there so things don't freeze or rust. My shop is well insulated and has a minimum of window area.
[ February 02, 2008, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Dana Stanley ]
posted
I agree, Nancie, to spend your money on insulation. You can get that up yourself between the studs. You don't have to drywall it by yourself, but it's not that hard if you have two people. I did it when I was in Ohio in my garage. As for the floor, you could put down a sub floor and do something with that if it's a cement floor. As long as you're remodeling anyway, the insulation would help you with whatever heat source you find anyway. You don't really use flammable materials anyway do you. Well, good luck, Nancie.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
The only feasable way to insulate this house without losing its charm (think turn of the century clapboard walls now painted semigloss white) would be to do it from the outside and reside it. I don't know if I could justify that expense. There are a few weatherizing things I could afford to do. I'm not sure that I will be able to stay here for decades, but at least a few years (until the owner decides to sell commercial). I may decide to just buy a few more of those radiator/oil heaters to finish out this winter and spend some time doing homework on what exact product would be best to suit my needs for the longer run. I know now that I need to do something pronto to heat this place up without costing too much. I have a big backdrop job that I need a warm place to work on, and it has some tight deadlines. I also need to consider a better cooling source come summer... Many of your suggestions are very good. It gives me a lot to research.
-------------------- Nancie W. Phillips White Dove Painting Studio 74 Dacula Road, Dacula, GA 30019 678-887-3339
They run on gas but convert it to infrared heat without producing any flames in the process, perfect for shop areas with flammable stuff.
The fact that it's infrared heat means it will heat objects in the room directly (ie: line of sight), not indirectly by heating up all the air first, thus you don't lose any effectiveness of the heat because of poor insulation.
There are electric infrared heaters you can get too but if you already have gas available you might give the catalytic ones a shot.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nancy, Blow in insulation is fairly easy to do yourself and inexpensive also. You drill two holes through the siding. Top and bottom between the studs and blow it full. Plug the holes with wooden plugs, sand them flush and paint. You just have to be careful that you don't hit a "bottomless' space. I filled the whole space around our bathtub and started a good pile of cellulose in the basement before I realized it was taking a bit longer than the rest of them. The good news is the bathwater stayed hot much longer.
-------------------- Bill Modzel Mod-Zel screen Printing Traverse city, MI modzel@sbcglobal.net Posts: 1356 | From: Traverse City, MI | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
I bought a coal stove from the same guy as Rochon. Coal comes in several types; for home or shop heating it should be low-sulfur anthracite (hard) coal. Unlike wood, there's virtually no smoke, no creosote buildup in chimneys (those chimney fires are what the insurance co. get worked up about.) My shop also has a propane-fired unit much like seen in mobile homes. Between the two I keep it comfortable in here on the coldest days.
I buy coal in forty-pound bags from the local feed store for $6.99 a bag, usually 5 bags at a time, which lasts about two weeks. If I was to build a bin and buy it by the ton I could get it quite a bit cheaper, but space is an issue. I try to use the propane sparingly, as prices are very high in New England.
For folks in other areas, check with your Agway or other supply places. Hard coal is ONLY mined in one part of Northeastern Pennsylvania; coal from anywhere else is bituminous (soft) coal, which is smoky and smelly.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Joe, you haven't looked at pellet stoves lately. The new ones use exterior combustion air, automatic augers to feed the stove and electronic self starting igniters. Course wood pellets are made around here so they might be cheaper. Everyone I know that has one just loves them.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
if you can affoprd the upfront cost and you'll be there for awhile look into geothermal, we have it and infloor in our new shop and love it so far, can also run the system off a generator,SHOULD heat the shop for around $700 a year in electric, can also work with existing forced air ductwork for cheap summer a/c
-------------------- Pete Payne Willowlake Design/Canadian Signcrafters Bayfield, ON
posted
1st off.........DONT SAY DIDLY TO YOURE INSURANCE CO!!!! they got more regulations then you HEALTH CARE PLAN HAS!!!!! we had our insurance cancled in sarasota..because it was WOOD HOUSE!!!! if you got a rotwieler or pit bull or doberman, they will cancel you!!!! we put in a wood burning stove..... again thank you boone, curt, and a few others. we dont use it much but boy when it goes down below 40 here, its cold. and the heat is wonderful, being an old country boy from PA. grew up with COAL FIRED MONSTER in the basement. 1st one didnt even have a blower!! for my shop here i bought a TORPEDO they sell at HOME DEPOT, $140.00 PROPANE ONLY!!! and man what a nice heat that is. 5 min and 24x30x16 space is shirtsleeve warm when temps are in the 20's!!!!!! similar to this.. http://www.masterheaters.com/propane/blp55v.html
[ February 05, 2008, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wish I hadn't given away my woodburner to make room for my printer. I bought a 40,000 btu propane fireplace 3 years ago and this year it cost me $250/mo. to run.
-------------------- Darcy Baker Darcy's Signs Eureka Springs. AR. Posts: 1169 | From: Eureka Springs, AR | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Geothermal sounds like a winner. I've been watching the home improvement shows off and on and I say the more natural the better. As far as the blow in insulation, that would be my first notion to an already existing wall. There is a new product out that is super duper blow in insulation too but it expands so you can only use it for newer walls that only still have the studs exposed before the drywall goes on; it's much more efficient, but the original blow-in insulation sounds prectical for now. No matter what you use, Nancie, make sure you have the proper masks and protection plus ventilation. My dream is to have an eco=friendly home with maybe straw bales that have been treated, etc. (the solar, geothermal, natural half underground, living roof, etc. That's my dream come true). You should post some of the pics of your house, as well as Donna; it would be fun to see the progress? you GO LADIES! You rock!
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
[ February 05, 2008, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
| IP: Logged |
posted
What does it cost to set up a geo-thermal heating/cooling source? I figured it was outrageous...like setting up solar powered sources. If money were no object, that would be ideal... Hey Deb, Did that trip to Door County, WI this summer where we ate at the restaurant with the goats grazing on the roof inspire your ideal wish-list for an eco-friendly home? (Just kidding!) When you mentioned "living roof" that was the image that popped into my head.
-------------------- Nancie W. Phillips White Dove Painting Studio 74 Dacula Road, Dacula, GA 30019 678-887-3339
posted
Nancie, I was taking environmental science courses and learned about the geothermal in depth along with the living roof concepts. My major in college was interior/architectural design and I've always been fascinated with development of homes out of earthen materials. In Wisconsin when I was a child, we used to frequent the "House on the Rock". Since age 6, I've been crazy about living more "outside" than inside. The cliff dwellers are also inspirational to me as they use the earth to survive; anything along those lines is great. Why not figure it out before we run out of resources; heck, this winter storm has knocked out power for many and it helps if we have alternate resources even if it is for emergency! Loved that restaurant though!!!! btw, Chicago is huge into the living roof concepts; We grew up in an old large drafty house with old fireplaces and marble bathroom fixtures, etc. My dad even made a driveway with coil heating underground so it looked like the snake river when he heated up the snow. He also lived in the Fla Keys and used only solar heat to heat his water; ran copper tubes along his roof and of course, he bragged to us snowbirds how he cooked eggs on the rocks! My dad was an inventor also.
[ February 06, 2008, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey folks, check this out if you haven't already. www.backhome magazine.com. You might be amazed at what you see, and read. Rob Roy's books are great, I used to live near him in days gone by. He lives what he writes. I am checking to see if another buddy has ever set up a web site on his home in NC. Will let you know if he has. Don
-------------------- Donald Miner ABCO Wholesale Neon 1168 Red Hill Creek Dobson, NC Posts: 842 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic