posted
I have a client with a 6' x 10' two-sided free standing pole sign. The old faces are embossed pan style. His budget is very tight and wants to use flat faces. One of my concerns is hot spots from the fluorescent lamps. I've encountered cabinet boxes that are only 5" wide...flat panels were not a viable option, however this particular sign's cabinet is 9" wide. Has anyone any experience or practical knowledge if this width will allow flat panels without objectionable hot spots of light?
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
I had the same situation where the guy's budget just did not allow for the Pans. And yes, the lamp bulbs show through some. I explained the concern before hand and even though he understood, he just could not afford the right way. Even though they show through, it is not real bad and I'm sure I notice more than the average person.
I used .118 White UV Polycarbonate and applied translucent adhesive vinyl that has the printed artwork on it. Maybe trying to use a thicker polycarbonate might work better. The cabinet was also 9" so really only about 4" from bulb to outside.
-------------------- Bob Noyes Digital Graffiti 310 Main St NE Mapleton, MN 56065 Posts: 130 | From: Mapleton, MN | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Or........... an old method. Use a saber saw, cut the old faces out leaving a full 3/4" between the edge and the roll over of the pan. Use Acryweld to laminate the new acrylic panel to the edge of the pan shoulder and reuse them. I believe we've done this easily a dozen times over the years when the pan faces required new logos and were painted or yellowed. If done carefully you barely notice that the new panels are an overlay on the shoulders.
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I mis-spoke. Its not Acryweld, its Weld-On.... and there's a definite difference. Bill, Weld-On melds the products, so it actually shouldn't make a difference as long as he doesn't use a substantially heavier face than the original. He could even use a clear 1/8th" polycarbonate backsprayed with white Grip-flex without a problem, don't you think?
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
yes,.. Weld-on is the magic bullet in this one. That stuff works...
Or in a pinch you can make your own weldon by mixing a load of acetone with some sawdust from the plastic. Mix it it let it set until it is all dissolved. Keep adding in plastic dust until the mixture is like thin snot or egg whites.
There ya go.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
The hot spots would be the LEAST of my worries on this job. That face is entirely too large to use a flat piece of plastic. DO NOT DO THIS! The reason the face was embossed was for strength. Even if you get a waiver from the customer holding you blameless, you will probably still be on the hook for the consequences of the face(s) blowing out.
If the cheap bastard does not heed your warning, then walk away from the installation of this job. DO NOT INSTALL THIS JOB! YOU will be liable. Your insurance company will probably rule against you. Way too much liability here. Is making a couple of bucks worth your reputation or your future? Hell, NO!
I have done Pierre's trick before. It works. However, when you weigh in the extra trip for the removal of the faces and the extra amount of labor and materials, the savings are minimal at best. Besides, you still end up with a rinkydink looking project.
It is your job as a sign professional to educate this customer. Ask him if the amount of difference is going to cover his deductible when that face blows out.
Keep us posted on what happens!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Bruce, (and Rosemary says "hey!") that size or even larger should be no problem at all if he simply installs a hanger bar.
P
Hey!! I just saw the "rinky-dink"! Bruce, if he takes the acrylic/polycarb right out to the edge, Weld-On's it, waits for a cure and then runs the belt sander over the edge to bevel it, its barely noticeable right in front of you and dead clean and finished looking from the ground. As for a flat face, it could be 12' high and 24 feet long as long as he uses a hanger bar. Latigo has a criteria for wind load when he installs a hanger bar. Typically we use aluminum with slightly oversized holes for the shanks. That allows for expansion and contraction.
P
[ January 19, 2008, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
im with bruce on this one ....tell the cheap-o to except the hot spots or get off his check book and do the job right with a pan face!!!! you ALWAYS get what you pay for and yes you can short cut this and rework a pan face with a cut out but that is 2nd best and open to failing on a job this size and will come back and bite you on the ass
stop trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear
-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Tell ya whut, bud......... We've made a lot of silk purses that are still up in the air.... But if you inist that we stop, why then.... of course we will!
P
Bored this afternoon. The scheduled band in the studio cancelled because of a huge storm with sub-zero temps headed this way..... so..... I'm hangin' out and bein' a wise guy.
BTW, Aaron...... Are you not familiar with the strength of hanger bars?? Why would you worry about such an installation?
2nd BTW........ Aaron, do you know the Brune family in Napa?
[ January 19, 2008, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I've got yer back Pierre, sometimes you have to work with what you've got(and what the customer has). I've done them that way and they've looked fine. By the way, I was talking about wind deflection with a flat face only , not one welded to the old pan. A hanger bar would take care of that it can be retrofitted for one
posted
Thanks, Willie! We did a 10' by 28' double sided Polycarb on thursday with full length hanger bars. The original cabinet was designed for the flex faces with all of the weird little PITA stretchers. We typically use stainless bolts, washers and Nylanuts every 18" on something that long. The holes are overdrilled by 1/32nd. Latigo put those up in the air now. My sense of equlibrium is shot so I don't go up anymore. Happend two years ago.
P
BTW...... If you've never done this before make sure you tighten the nuts down to touch the face and then back off 1/2 turn. You definitley don't want to secure the hanger bar to the face tightly.
[ January 19, 2008, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Pierre, I'm not sure what your talking about with this "hanger bar". I looked at a website signcomp.com who mfrs sign cabinet extrusions. In their side view drawings the top extrusion has a channel for the face and a lip for a hanger bar. In the case of a simple angle style retainer that essentially creates a channel for the face...how does one create something for the hanger bar to sit on? As for a flat face would screwing on the top edge of the sign directly to the cabinet face, then attaching the top angle retainer bar accomplish the same thing. The next guy who has to service the sign would have to remove these screws in order to slide the face off...but he would only have to do one side.
Since a well est company like SignComp is mfr 9" wide cabinet kits for DS faces...I assume "hot spots" may not be an issue with white .177 polycarb faces.
-------------------- Tony Lucero Eagle Graphics Waterford, MI www.eaglegph.com Posts: 305 | From: Waterford, MI, USA | Registered: Apr 2000
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Tony, I'm at a disadvantage. I'm in Lost Prairie and not in town at the graphics studio so I have no way to illustrate it for you. Unless someone else can give you a schematic, I'll do it first thing monday. Its not complicated at all and very easy to change out but you do need a visual. You definitely do not want to screw the faces to any part of the retainer or extrusion. I do have "gotomypc.com" but the computer in town is shut off so I'm unable to illustrate for you. BTW...... that gotomypc.com is fantastic...... as long as you leave the home computer on.
P
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
One difficulty that has not been mentioned is welding an acrylic to a polycarbonate. I'd want to make sure both the pan and the patch are the same "schtuff." Is that the right word Pierre?
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6713 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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My point on the re-using the old face is not one of not be able to get it done but one of cost factor. Labor always costs more than material. I have used this method when dealing with the cheap POS signs the mail order salesman sell. Yes it did work but only because it was a small face and it was cost effective. However, in my opinion, it still looked rinkydink. To use the method Pierre describes might look better but we get back to the cost of labor versus the cost of material.
As far as the hang rail goes... No one mentioned that that there was a hang rail in the sign cabinet. If there is not a hang rail and you have retrofit one, then it goes back to cost effectiveness. Rebuilding a cabinet in the air is no treat and would not be cost effective.
It is not the job purpose of a sign man to lose money or forgo making a profit on a job in order that his client save his own money. I, for one, do not buy into the theory of "I can't afford it so you have to give me a break". Making a profit and getting fair prices are not criminal acts! Honest!
I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts, that at the end of a comparison, and using real and true figures (no signpainter arithmetical theories allowed), that the pan face with vinyl graphic overlays applied first surface will be far more cost effective than the other avenues presented.
Tomorrow, I will looking into the price of a pan face and I will present my findings. If I am proven wrong, so be it. I do believe, however, that the figures will back up my position.
Time for some lunch...
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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Yo! Dr.Caz! I'm betting an easy $850.00 for a pan face that size. Let me know what you find. And, I also like Chivas Regal with my baked crow. P
Bruce......... Forgot to mention.... There's an easy way to use the hanger bar without altering the cabinet or retrofitting. It will depend a bit on the extrusion, but if its a standard one its not a problem.
[ January 20, 2008, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Pierre St.Marie ]
-------------------- Pierre St.Marie Stmariegraphics Kalispell,Mt www.stmariegraphics.com ------------------ Plan on knowing everything before I die and time's running out! Posts: 4223 | From: Kalispell,Mt 59903 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I did 2 8x14 pan faces a while ago the faces cost about $1500 with shipping all done ready to hang lexan.
All to easy. The job looked great. Brand new shiney panels with no worries about anything.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I may be wrong here, but wouldn't the cost of the flat faces, hanger bars,labor to cut out the pan faces, and the labor to install the hanger bars come pretty close to the same as new pan faces?
I'd do the cutting of the old pan faces first in case Murphy's Law crops up. You don't want to have useless flat faces sitting there if the pan face breaks while cutting. Just a thought.
-------------------- Dave Sherby "Sandman" SherWood Sign & Graphic Design Crystal Falls, MI 49920 906-875-6201 sherwoodsign@sbcglobal.net Posts: 5396 | From: Crystal Falls, MI USA | Registered: Apr 1999
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call around to places that sell PAN FACES & FLAT SHEETS..you will find the pan face AINT THAT MORE....then you will spend in YOUR labor TRYIN to save HIM SOME MONEY!!!!!! he dont want to spend the money for replacement pans...WALK AWAY........
[ January 20, 2008, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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pierre no I dont think i know the Brune family here ya i know all about hanging bars and have made a bunch of them over the last 25 or so years on flat faces but if a guy wants to take the chance and spend the labor to rework a pan face and take a chance of a sign that large failing and falling on someone go ahead the project most always will look like a patch job over time over the years i have made plenty of silk purses with what ever was on hand but im still with bruce and joe on this one, except a flat flat with hot spots (with or with out a hanger) or a nice clean safe new pan face,and make a better living
-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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you know what bottom line no need to explain. buy 2 pan faces and replace or DONT DO THIS JOB. these faces are too large for flat and instead of screwing and glueing and all that do the right thing.
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
If the job is done well, there is minimal cost difference between flat & pan. So why not do it well AND right? 9" is too narrow a df cab for flat faces at best, and the lamps are probably spaced too far apart to get by with it if you wanted.
posted
If you go ahead with the flat faces, try taking a strip of black vinyl and putting it on the lamp side that is facing the face. I haven't done this but my old mentor that builds all my sign cabinets said that this will stop the hot spots.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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-------------------- Aaron Haynes Aaron's Signs & Windows Napa Ca aa4signs@sbcglobal.net ------------ Important Rule For Life: "Look out for number one... Don't step in number two" ------------ If your never the lead dog on the sled...the scenery never changes. Posts: 241 | From: Napa Ca. USA | Registered: Dec 1998
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Hi Guys. What do you suggest for someone that wants to exchange one of those interchangeable copy pieces with the polycarbonate flat face? The customer has an "uncle" who works in a factory that they want to get from him the piece. Should I make any suggestions? I'm only going to be designing and lettering the front, but I feel a little responsible to see the job gets done right with the correct materials and thicknesses.I told them not to accept acrylic but instead polycarb and wrote it down. It's [i]not a pan face,[I]but there may be qualities that need to be considering when not interchanging the exact same thing. If I don't show some knowledge, they may just take it to a sign shop near the plastic factory too, as I am still at the stage of quoting. Any suggestions on interchanging those two types of faces?
[ January 23, 2008, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Deb Fowler ]
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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