Consider the company you keep when making a statement like that.
Letterheads are "Keepers of the Craft". A large part of that is carrying on the traditional methods of sign making...read that as passing on the craft of painting by hand.
So, are we all just wasting our time here? Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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"But this is a new age of 'Evolution for Mankind' and things will change as we progress."
I don't know that using digital technology qualifies as the benchmark for the next stage of evolution of the human race. I do know that is is a technological step in this industry, not necessarily "new". The technology has been around for over 20 years, but the cost of doing digital output has come down ten fold in the last decade. Even desktop printers, which sold for hundreds of dollars when they first came out, can easily be found for less than the cost of the ink used in them.
My only issue is saying that it is a waste of time to continue painting.
In my market, it's still an effective way to separate from the pack and offer services that other shops around me do not. Pinstriping, airbrush work and hand lettering has become less common over the years and there are still customers out there who prefer that kind of work, They are generally considered a "skill" that is valuable, so the profit margin, as Joey pointed out, is worthwhile.
At my first meet, a Letterhead I have the highest respect for told me that I had an "arsenal" of techniques. I have added digital technology since then. Like you, I do a lot of work with digital imaging. Scanning, photo editing, vectorizing, vinyl plotting...all tools of the trade. I have never considered having the ability to paint a waste of time, and since becoming involved with the Letterhead movement, feel that passing it on to others can give them added weaponry in their daily business battles.
Add the feeling of pride and accomplishment when they step away from a panel or project they created with their own imagination and hands, and I know that it's never a waste of time.
Regards, Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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I applaud your new learned talents, for most won't ever make the transition. Although I find you perspective a bit short sighted.
Possessing both sets of skills will provide a better income than one or the other alone.
Digital IS great, but it is NOT the answer for everything.
Just to reinforce my post, this week I redid a logo for digital printing on some site signs, and are currently hand lettering on vinyl 2 sets of truck doors of the same logo becasue that is what the customer wants. Along with that I had a nice gilding job this week. It is nice to be versatile.
[ May 25, 2007, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Hey Stephen...by what authority do you become so qualilified to tell everybody else, how to act?
I think Rapid's got it right...
To quote the man...
"Add the feeling of pride and accomplishment when they step away from a panel or project they created with their own imagination and hands, and I know that it's never a waste of time."
That's such a good summary of what we're all trying to do.
Amen?
[ May 25, 2007, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Ogden ]
-------------------- Jeff Ogden 8727 NE 68 Terr. Gainesville FL, 32609 Posts: 2138 | From: 8827 NE 68 Terr Gainesville Fl 32609 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Well buddy, once again you have successfully set fire to the cats tail
Great way to get some discussion started, but some times your choice of words seem to really upset the folks here.
I for one take much greater time to try to analize what you are trying to communicate than I used to. . And as usual I find by watching a thread unravel I can sometime better understand your point if view.
That being said: I have at least one thing that you seem to be overlooking in "your" point of view.
What if all the electricity in your area is NOT working???
How do you or any of us get our "digital" ideas from point "A" { our minds}, to point"B" {the finished media}?
BTW: That would include but not exclude this discussion on this electronic medium? NO?
Just something to ponder... OH!!
BTW;
Having a bucket of water near the computer will be helpful in the future to extinquish those cat fires, but use caution around the electrical appliances.
-------------------- Bob Cole American Sign Company 14163 Akron Canfield Rd. Berlin Center, Ohio 44401
A.K.A. Vinylman® Posts: 575 | From: Berlin Center, Ohio, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that before you post these things you decide to because you heard jesus and elvis talking discussing it inside a bottle of ketchup. Did houdini stand you up?
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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If only Stephen would put as much energy into the t-shirt he owes me from last years shirt swap as he puts into coming here and trying to p*** everyone off......
-------------------- Mike Murray Murray Signs Freeport IL Posts: 193 | From: Freeport IL USA | Registered: May 1999
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If the power goes out I could use the air in my tires to do a little airbrushing.....can you power something with tires that will do a nice freehand "digital" airbrush piece...mmmm
couple thoughts
Who makes more money per job???? An original True Fire by Mike Lavallee or a stuck on "digital" flame print by the one and only Stephen Deveau?
Digital equipment and technologies are great "Tools" but if you don't know how to use them, they only cheapen the whole industry!
excuse me....I have to go work on a one of a kind wedding portrait for some friends of mine!
posted
Hi Stephen. In Ontario, there is a fairly good market for handcrafted items, and there do exist people who are willing to pay significant bucks to acquire those things. Mennonite furniture, hand thrown pottery, hand-knit sweaters/clothing, tailored made-to-measure suits, etc. Hand-painted signs sort of fall into that category, and those people who have a preference for that sort of look are willing to pay MORE than what they might, for a sign produced digitally.
With the technology advances digital has become more cost-effective, but most often I do see it as signage that's devoid of any "personality", that hand-crafted brings. It has a "sameness" look about it, and I feel that many of the designers using technology are becoming too reliant upon it....rather than their own natural abilities. Just last week, a first-time poster put onto the Portfolio page, a banner that they'd done on butcher paper, using just tempra paints. That banner was most refreshing, and the banner had far more "personality" and eye-appeal than most digitally-produced efforts that I've seen lately.
Essentially, what I'm attempting to say is that there is a market for digital, to be sure....just as WalMart has established a market for their style of merchandising. Fast, cheap, instant gratification. However, not everyone chooses to shop at WalMart, but rather seek out those handcrafted items that speak to their souls of such matters as quality, value, and uniqueness.
Everyone will choose which path on which they will walk through life. Some avenues will prove to be more satisfying, but there will be others that'll get you there faster, but with less ambiance and grace. Good luck with your preference for digital.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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Hey Stephen, please post a portfolio of pictures of all this new age digital work you are doing... we'll have Rapid post a few of his pics, just so we can make an educated decision about what looks better and is more effective.
I keep hearing how you say you're way ahead of everyone here but so far have only seen a couple of strange photoshop concoctions and a melting snowman....
Show us some actual useful stuff, man!!
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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Stephen, where as I see what you’re saying, I don’t quite get where you’re coming from. I guess I would consider myself a “pixel puller”. At our shop each one of us has our own niche(s). It just so happens that my niches all involve working with computers. This, however, does not mean that I don’t appreciate the work that is done by hand. I’m not really sure what type of work you do (maybe post a few photos of your work), whether you paint at all, or if you have been to any letterhead meets? But my “assumptions” lead me to believe that: A. either you don’t do hand painted work …or B. you do a little but you excel more on the computer (like me)
Sometimes it can be easy to say that one method of getting a job done is better because you don’t know how to do the other method or you don’t have understanding of how it is done. If that is the case I invite you to check out a letterhead meet or a walldog event (keep in mind this is based on the assumption that you have never been to a meet, if you have disregard this whole reply of mine).
You should check out the Algoma meet. I guarantee you that you would be humble-ized in a nano-second. Or at least gain an appreciation of what some of these guys do and an understanding of why some of them might be upset by your comments that what they have spent a good chunk of their time perfecting is a waste of time.
Even though I don’t get to do much painting, I find nothing more fun than spending a weekend sitting my pasty white butt out in the sun on some scaffolding with a paintbrush in hand next to a bunch of old farts while they tell hilarious jokes and stories with some good old fashioned blues being played in the background and old men spectators crack the same wise ass remark about how we spelled something wrong and the rest of the community truly gaining from a beautiful work of art that we all created that will last for years to come. Now if that is a “waste of time”, I must be crazy.
[ May 26, 2007, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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...SD, the only people who whold ever say "Paint is a waste of time" DON'T KNOW HOW TO PAINT!!!
...And if you think that DIGITAL is where it's at then YOU CAN'T BE A LETTERHEAD anymore! (like you ever were).
...But if you ever want to (attempt to) be a L'head again, repeat this mantra; keepers of the craft, Keepers of the Craft, KEEPERS OF THE CRAFT...! ...get it?
posted
Boy, Stephen. I really don't think you get the picture of "Letterheads" in general.
Joe described the phenomenon pretty well.
Many here, including myself, are very capable of digital design and make use of that "tool" when it is needed, but many are also passionate craftsmen and strive to create top notch designs first and then apply whatever techniques are needed to make the actual sign, decal, monument, vehicle job etc.
Everyone has their expertise and preferred method of production to get to an end result: a quality design that benefits its intended environment and use. To single out something like "paint" as a waste of time means nothing to someone who is an expert with that medium and is backlogged with work because they have perfected their craft.
Tell Mike Lavallee or Eric Grohe(muralist) that paint is a waste.
There will always be digital work and there will always be a need for handcrafted things. There will just be fewer craftsmen to produce the latter and I believe that will create a certain demand for that type of work.
Keep pulling "pixels", Stephen. If that's what you do, then do it to the fullest. Learn your craft. Perfect it. There's nothing wrong with that at all.
As for me: I'll keep pulling paint, pixels, power tools, sandpaper, postholes, rock etc. Whatever it takes......
posted
To echo the comments of many here... paint isn't a waste of time... anymore than any other medium might be.
I don't consider myself a 'painter' but we do a lot of it in our shop. I've even made a very good living painting murals by brush in the past and could do a lot more if I wanted.
The signs we do in our shop are out on the fringe compared to the work produced by most here. Its my hope that does NOT SEPARATE us from the others who may do diffrerent things... it just makes us unique. I use my computer as a digital tool to produce my concept art. The computer and the files produced there also drive my router. We also build things by hand, we sculpt, carve, weld and a thousand other things...
But all of the above are simply tools and methods which are used to produce the work I am so passionate about.
The tools and methods by themselves (no matter what they may be )are not what make me (or anyone else) a letterhead... but rather the PASSION to learn and share the things I know with others who have this same desire. This is the essence of the Letterhead movement as I understand it.
Letterheads is a movement which empowers and encourages others. Its not about choosing sides, or tearing others down.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8740 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Obviously Stephan has lost his roots and become an Inkhead!
quote: SD, the only people who whold ever say "Paint is a waste of time" DON'T KNOW HOW TO PAINT!!!
...And if you think that DIGITAL is where it's at then YOU CAN'T BE A LETTERHEAD anymore! (like you ever were).
...But if you ever want to (attempt to) be a L'head again, repeat this mantra; keepers of the craft, Keepers of the Craft, KEEPERS OF THE CRAFT...! ...get it?
-------------------- WR Pickett Richmond, Va.
A quick look at the Portfolio Table will show what I mean!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Mike Murray, what size T-shirt are you? Email me & I'll send/print you one of ours, if you like!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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It is truely amasing to see how people react when you post something different. Talk about their fur being ruffled.
As I stated the times are changing and the new age of digital is here. Most everyone has a plotter or Ink Machince/CNCs these days.
Web Pages/Blogs/YouTalks/Business Cards/Flyers/Logo Designs/News Print or Book Covers/ just look around yourself and see the new digital age.
Sorry are you staring at one right now!
And yes I have pulled paint for over 30 years but enjoy the fact and comfort of being able to sit down and create a design with this Etecth-A-Sketch Box.
Digital print media is now overlooking the old days of handlettering.
But I am still not talking about digital prints! I am talking about the new era of digital displays..... It is coming around the corner hard and fast!
Step outside and look around, you will see the New Age of Electronics.
Thanks for all the kind words people... as usual!
[ May 27, 2007, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
-------------------- Stephen Deveau RavenGraphics Insinx Digital Displays
Letting Your Imagination Run Wild! Posts: 4327 | From: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Most towns around here won't let businesses have flashing lights, LED message boards, even neon. It will be a long time before they'll let anyone have a digital display.
Now in Atlanta, that's a different story. ...and it's old news. Get with the times man.
posted
Like Dusty said, that’s great for some shops and towns, but now we’re talking about lighted and electrical signs. Our shop has not gotten into electrical work for many reasons. But probably one of the main reasons would be that we live in a city with historic downtown and a strict ordinance that states that no lighted or electrical display signs are to be used. And I know other towns do the same thing. This does not stop us from doing vinyl signage in our town but we still get a lot of jobs requiring us to paint by hand.
Actually, I’m trying to think of all the services that we provide that are almost impossible to do with out paint. One of our best selling services is semi work. We probably do 2 or 3 a week. Now I realize that a semi could be easily done without paint. In fact, when we do trucks the majority of it is vinyl and digital print. But, I like to think one of the reasons so many truckers like to come to us is because we can pinstripe their trucks. I’d say a good 95% of the semis we do leave our shop with pinstriping on them. Then there’s sandblasted signs and dimensional signs. You got to paint those. There’s no way around it. “Real” gold leaf work… Fine art… Murals… Hell, we paint a lot of signs that we could have easily been digitally printed or covered in vinyl, only to get the longevity that paint can offer our customers.
But I do agree with you on this Stephen, there’s no reason for anyone to get all worked up when some presents a different way of looking at the sign industry. I just think it’s the words you use. Like many people have already said this board is full of people that are “keepers of the craft” and you know that. In fact, you had to know that some would react the way they did to your original post. I for one enjoy posts like this, not because I like seeing people get attacked, I don’t like that part of it at all, but I like seeing people strongly stand behind their opinions and I enjoy hearing a good debate about the different ways to run a sign shop.
In fact, part of me wishes more sign shops would have your mentality Stephen, and throw away all their brushes. That will make some of the handcrafted services that much more valuable. Because there will always be a need for that type of work. No mater how far technology has progressed …well, at least in my life time
-------------------- Joe Diaz Diaz Sign Art 628 W. Lincoln Ave. Pontiac, IL 61764 www.diazsignart.com Posts: 538 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Aug 2005
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I can think of many things that are still around & doing well in spite of newer technology - cedar shingles draught horses bicycles genuine leather cotton...... the list goes on I'd suspect that there'll always be a market for hand-made & natural things, even if they do cost more. There are a LOT of people out there who don't shop at Wal-Mart, & who aren't interested in the latest thing. A Bed & Breakfast with a flashing digital sign will be quite unlikely to grab any of my disposable income.
-------------------- Rodger MacMunn T.R. MacMunn & Sons C.P.207, Sharbot Lake, ON 613-279-1230 trmac@frontenac.net Posts: 475 | From: Sharbot Lake, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
Joe Diaz mentioned trucks and striping. We do a lot of truck work too. Our simple jobs take about an hour on an 18 wheeler and we charge $400 and up. It takes about 1/2 ounce of paint, a few drops of catalyst and a little lacquer thinner for clean up. A good striping brush costs about $25 and will do about thirty trucks before it craps out. Total material cost is under $5 I'll let somebody else do the math.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
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That would include but not exclude this discussion on this electronic medium? NO?
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or behind or something............let's see, where is my cave.....I know it's around here somewhere........... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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