posted
Let's just call this a general post. I'm not personally asking this question, but it is one that many employees may face one day. What are your thoughts and/or advice for this Letterhead?
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I know this is long, but I’ve cut it down as much as I can. I need some knowledge to help me make a decision. After reading the last few posts belittling employees I wanted to ask some advice from the employees point of view.
I've been working for the same company for better than 10 years now. When I started I expected the job to just fill a gap until I could get anotherjob with an advertising firm again. Somewhere along the line I realized that I loved making signs, and had a talent for it, so I've been here ever since.
The business operates as three different companies. One shop handles all the routed, electrical, and neon work. One shop does nothing but screenprinted signs and shirts, and the shop I'm in does nothing but vinyl.
In the time I've been here this shop has evolved to where I run it almost like an owner. I handle all the inventory, pricing, maintenance, and a good bit of the production. I rarely see the owners, when I do it's only for a few minutes here and there when they pick up supplies of come by to get materials from us to use in one of the other locations.
The end of the business is starting to crack around the edges. The owners are both in their late 60's and are not willing to take the risk of investing in "that digital printing trend". Almost daily we have to turn down jobs because customers want full color and we have no cost effective way to give it to them.
The only company they will let me sub the printing out to is charging us $18 psf for Edge prints. Our two biggest conventions both BEGGED us to go digital. Both ended up going to a different shop this year. The owner's answer to me telling them about it was, and I quote, "Well if that's how they want to be, we don't need them." Our plotters are outdated, I got tired of taking artwork home at lunch to use my scanner so I bought one for the shop, along with my old 15" monitor, and both the computer systems here are hodge podge collections of parts I assembled.
I know, nobody wants to believe they are actually letting a once profitable business die but the owners given up. They've made enough to retire. The business is nothing more than a hobby for them now and there aren’t a whole lot of old signpainters that would consider “vinyl signs” a hobby.
I've offered to buy the place. I've begged them to give me a price, I've even shown up with my loan officer and a check ready to negotiate a price, but they are not interested.
I know it's their company to do with as they please. I'm just an employee. They don't actually owe me anything other than a paycheck, and I'm paid pretty well. My problem is that I have no retirement plan and no benefits through them, and now no confidence that I'll still have a job in a few years.
Now my question: Should I open my own shop? I know EXACTLY what it would take inancially, material cost, insurance, etc. Like I said, I've done 99% of the accounting for the vinyl end since I started. All I don't do is write my own paycheck.
I don't want to steal their business, but for me to succeed I'd have to take most of the major clients with me, the same clients who are pushing me to do it now. I'm currently sitting on about 18 months salary, I have financing approved for up to 3 times what I predicted as the highest possible amount I'd need, & a decent location with a landlord who is offering me a cherry deal on purchasing the building within two years. My only other option is to try to buy into a partnership with them, with a definite plan written into the contract for them turning the shop over to me upon their retirement.
So, does anybody have any thoughts on this? Be brutally honest, attack me, and call me whatever you wish. This is one of those major, life defining decisions and I’d appreciate anything you’ve got to say. If it needs to be cruel and painful, I’ll take it, I just want outside opinions.
Thanks in advance.
-------------------- Steve Shortreed 144 Hill St., E. Fergus, Ontario Canada N1M 1G9 519-787-2673
posted
I think you should be above board. Have integrity. Maybe you should inquire about buying the business. Explain how it is not staying with the times and is going to fail if something is not done. Give them a price and see if they accept. I wouldn't agree to any partnership, or other ways of milking money out of you. Just a straight forward purchase.
posted
Well, I guess we all know I'm doing this now, though probably not on the same scale. I'm not with the same mentallity that says if you're an employee, you should always stay an employee and not go off on your own. I'm sure we've all started out working for someone.
I completely backed this person, until I read this part:
quote:Originally posted by Steve Shortreed: I don't want to steal their business, but for me to succeed I'd have to take most of the major clients with me, the same clients who are pushing me to do it now.
I do think that is crossing a line. If you can't make it on your own and develop your own clientele, then you're success is basically based on someone else's failure.
If this was the case, I would recommend: open a shop in another town, develop a successful marketing plan, and build your business from the ground up, just as your former employer had to do.
-------------------- Tracie Johnson Signovations Ventura, California Posts: 444 | From: Ventura, California | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I do not think it is right to go to work at a sign shop in order to learn the trade, with the intentions of stealing their techniques, graphics files and client base to start your own business after a year or two.
However, I don't think a person should feel guilty quitting a job in the sign business and opening his/her own shop if the situation calls for it.
After all, you have to learn the trade from somewhere... I've seen a lot of people buy a vinyl cutter and try to make a business fly with no experience, and it's tough for them.
I've also made the mistake of not doing the right thing for myself because I felt too much loyalty to my old employer. The first sign shop I worked at was owned by two brothers. I was the manager of the place after a couple of years, but the one brother ran the business into the ground by spending WAY too much money all the time.
Well, when the bank finally shut them down, I had the opportunity to buy all the equipment and start my own business, but felt sorry for the other brother, who I felt got the short end of the stick. So I told the money man the only way I'd be interested in it was if the *good* brother could be my partner. They were hesitant and warned me, but I thought it was the right thing to do.
BIG MISTAKE. I ended up running the whole show, but my partner was getting a salary also. His wife talked him into getting a second job at the paper mill (for the insurance) which quickly became his first job. If he wasn't at the paper mill he was at his hunting camp. I wouldn't see him except for him to come by to get money... no help whatsoever. Finally, after a couple years of that, I got burned out and we sold out.
Moral of the story: I should've swallowed my guilt and listen to my advisors... cut my ties with them and moved on... it was a golden opportunity and I'd be in much better shape today if I had been thinking just a little more of Number 1...
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
This scenario, as presented, is a no-win situation. On one hand you are an employee who feels trapped on a sinking ship, but the owners don't see their peril. Their lack of vision or willingness to re-invest in their company, is ultimately going to result in the company dwindling away, and your job will go with it.
Since their major accounts have already gone elsewhere, they're unlikley to get those back or retain them for any length of time if they do.
It's time to call a meeting with the owners and lay your cards on the table, together with your "final offer". Should they refuse to deal with you, then, at that point, you should feel free to open a competing shop without any qualms about professional ethics. It's obvious that you see the need to upgrade, and that you're eager and willing to do so, but they are not.
Time marches on, and unfortunately, it waits on nobody. The present owners have had their moment in the sun, but are on longer seeing their business as a living, growing entity. In your own best interest, it's time for you to move on, and do what you have to do......but not before you've made them that fair, but final offer. That way, you'll still be able to shave in the morning, and like the person you see looking back at you.
Good Luck.
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
All good responses so far. The only question I have is what is your experience with design and the latest digital technology. Are you ready, or can you can you hit the ground running with full color printing? If so, gather up your support, your banker, attorney, accountant and insurance agent and make sure your ducks are in a row. These "partners" will help you determine the value of the business, make sure everything is on the level, and protect your ass-ets if something is not quite right. Then draw up two separate business & marketing plans together before you make your "final offer"; one for buying your bosses company and one for going out on your own. If they refuse to sell, be polite and give them your 2 weeks notice, and then get going. As Ken put it, time waits for no one. It sounds like you have a good opportunity to expand your horizons and make life better for yourself and your family. Don’t let it pass you by. Just be forewarned though, starting and running your own business is a lot more difficult than running someone else’s. In your own business, all the pressure of running the business falls on you. Judging by the sounds of things, you’re probably going to need employees and these people are relying on you to make it a success. So, if you don’t have a good plan to implement and follow, you’re already starting off with a handicap and you may end up putting others livelihoods at risk.
Good luck,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Present them with the two obvious choices before you....buy what they have or start your own and perhaps one will happen or a new answer will develop. Doing this upfront and with love and integrity and respect is the criteria for every move.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6713 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
The guy I buy my digital prints from is being sued by his former employer for stealing clients. I don't know how this will pan out but it is a real possibility to all who consider your hypothetical situation.
This brings up another question, how do you really steal other shop's clients? Do you think they are not aware of your competition and have probably worked or talked with them already. That as soon as they realize they are dealing with a superior person with better prices they will jump ship? Most people stick with who they have been working with if they are taken care of and are treated professionally.
I would like to talk to your hypothetical in a few years after he convinces the owners to sell to him. There were probably be a whole bunch of eye opening experiences that he didn't see as an employee and find out they were much more on top of things than he realized.
And who on earth would not at least stop and hear you out if you were serious about buying? No business person I have ever met would.
-------------------- Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Posts: 2785 | From: Wyandotte, MI USA | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
There is also a 3rd but more risky option which I forgot to mention, which is this: Stay with them as an employee until the realization hits them that their sales are dwindling, and they MUST do something to stop the hemmoraging. At that point, they just MIGHT begin actively looking to sell the business. By that time it will have deteriorated in value so that it might be possible to make the purchase at substantially less that today's price.
You'll then be dealing with the situation where you have to resurrect the business, but performing a "pheonix type" salvage operation won't be easy. More accounts will have departed and formed relationships with other suppliers. They may be reluctant to return, but then again, they may....depending upon how confidant they would feel about you as the New Management/Owner. To me, it's the least attractive option, but I felt that it should be pointed out as a "possibility".
-------------------- Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail: kjmlhenry@rogers.com
Why do I get all those on-line offers to sell me Viagara, when the only thing hardening is my arteries ? Posts: 2684 | From: London,Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 1999
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posted
From what I read, I think this letterhead is in good shape to venture out on his own.
But beware, it takes 2 years or more to get a business established. Advertising, equipment, shop costs and building client base is no easy task and then tackling the learning curves of digital printing to take on all at once.
Expect to spend a great part of the day selling your new business and a large part of the night getting the work done.
Then there is the winter slow downs, 3 months of very little income.
Our shop has had to create a niche, form a new wholesale division, take on non-sign related construction projects to keep going. We've added large format printing, t-shirt printing and LED lighted signs.
We're busy, but the expenses, both $$ and stress and the end rewards are out of balance and will be for another few years.
My advice is have a backup plan, or another income. Example: Buy a fixerup house, fix it up sell it, buy another, fix it up sell it, so that you can be busy generating income when the sign business is slow. (it doesn't have to be a house flipping scheme, but something that generates income quickly.
I know a couple of kids (20 year olds) who make more money selling old video games on e-bay than I pay myself. They go to garage sales, buy whatever they think they can sell, and post it on E-bay, and they have gotten very good at it!
You'll do fine if you work hard at it and keep your options open to dong whatever it takes to generate income, sign related or not.
posted
Ken, that's a good point about the salavage operation. If the company has clients jumping ship from the lack of capabilities and concern about accomodating them, then the employee may not want to be associated with the owners, business name or fellow employees as he starts his new business.
It's hard enough marketing a new business without having the stigma of the previous company's failures unfairly transferred to you. When I purchased the equipment from a failed business, we moved locations, had a new name, look etc., but people still came in for years looking for the *bad* brother who owed them money. And he had never stepped foot in our store.
It sounds as if the shop he works for would have outdated equipment, and with equipment much less expensive now-a-days, he might be better off buying new and making a clean break.
If there is a big demand for digital printing in the area, Mr. Hypo could concentrate in that area, and therefore not be in direct competition with his previous employer.
Just some more thinking as I type...
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Is there any possibility that this is happening too fast for the owners? Would they be interested in a more gradual process? Would they consider your purchasing a digital printer and doing the actual sub work for them? I don't think this is the kind of thing that calls for a two week notice, life decisions shouldn't be made at the snap of your fingers.
You can do this more ethically by sitting down with the owners and expressing your concerns, giving them a reasonable time frame to absorb and adjust to all the information you have put forth here and letting your intentions be known in full.
ie: In three/six months I will be making an important decision as to whether I will be purchasing an existing business or starting my own from scratch. I'm most definitely interested in purchasing and expanding this business, but am also willing to start fresh. One of my concerns is the impact this will have on your business as I suspect a number of the customers who are used to dealing with me may follow. I will not be actively soliciting their business, however I suspect that many will wish to continue the working relationship we have established . In the meanwhile, I am interested in purchasing a large format printer and doing the digital work we are presently subbing out. I'm concerned that we are loosing a number of larger clients due to the fact we are not keeping up with the technology the competition is offering. While I realize you are reaching the point where you are more interested in maintaining than expanding, I am at the point where I have the need to plan for the security of my future.
I do not feel it is ethical to use the client database to advertise, however I also don't think you have to turn those who follow away. 10 years is a long time to dedicate to any employee. Be grateful, honest, courteous and fair, and make the break with your integrity intact.
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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posted
The way I see it....they don't want to put any money into the biz, but don't want to sell it to you.They are going to let it slowly die.
The vinyl side is fairly inexpensive to set up, and the printing side a lil more so. If you have the finances, open your own shop, push the print side, and the vinyl end will follow.
Contact the 'walked away' customers and get them for yourself. Word will get out, and IF you are producing quality, the rest will be easy to attract.
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8827 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I totally agree with Ken Henry's first answer. Now is the time to make an small, reasonable offer, or start your own business. Going after there customers is just part of the business world. This happens to all of us.
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
I suspect once you seriously consider setting up your own shop you will never again be happy working for someone else... especially if it is a long held dream. Life is like that.
It sounds like you have more experience in running a shop and are better financed than most who start and that is a good thing.
The dicey part is "taking the clients from the old shop with you". This can be done ethically or unethicly.
If you solicit their business while in the employ of the current employer it would be unethical. Same goes for taking any files, addresses or contact information WHILE EMPLOYED THERE. That isn't your territory... PERIOD. Telling clients of your plans while employed there is also unethical in my view.
I'm not much of a believer in partnerships... especially where things are not equal and they seldom are. So that leaves you three options... stay where you are, go work for someone else or set up on your own.
Count on a couple of things if you go out on your own. It will be harder than you think. It will cost more than you think. It will take longer than you think. It ALWAYS DOES!!!
If you really want to have buying the old shop as your first option I would make a serious offer to the owners. Let them know that if you are not able to come to an agreement then you WILL be setting up on your own. Be prepared to DO it immediately if they don't accept. Be fair in your offer (to both parties) and do it with gratitude for all they have provided you with in the past.
With the little amount of information you present I would advise you to GO FOR IT... but do it with integrity. It will pay in the long run.
I just had a long term employee leave me (Phoenix)and set up his own business. He happens to be my son-in-law which made it even harder for both of us. We are still good friends and we help each other as much as possible. We are careful NOT to step on each other's toes. I am sure as his business grows and time passes we will become more independent from each other.
He knows who my long term clients are and instead is catering to a different market base. He went after a market which I purposely didn't serve in my history. We had many discussions in the last couple of years about it. In the end he wanted to go there and I didn't. He moved on to serve that market and I continue on in the market I like to work in. WIN/WIN.
-grampa dan
-------------------- Dan Sawatzky Imagination Corporation Yarrow, British Columbia dan@imaginationcorporation.com http://www.imaginationcorporation.com
Being a grampa is one of the the most wonderful things in the world!!! Posts: 8738 | From: Yarrow, B.C. Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Hey Dan "right-on" I agree with Dan's statement 100%
-------------------- Greg DePauw Art Rod Foundation 206 S. Davenport Metamora,IL. 61548 (309)-367-4496 Posts: 52 | From: Metamora, Illinois. USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
My thoughts: I don't think you could "steal" their customers if you wanted to. In a free country the customers can use who they choose to. However, as others have pointed out, there are ethical and unethical ways of getting their business. I would be careful about how or if I would notify any of their customers I'm available.
-------------------- Chuck Peterson Designs San Diego, CA Posts: 1050 | From: San Diego, CA USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
It's time for this person to strike out on their own and there is no harm in sending an announcement card about a new business to all the existing customers along with everyone else in a targeted mailing (after leaving the other shop, that is). As far as I can tell, business names, addresses and phone numbers are freely available in the white pages - they're fair game. Send a press release to the newspaper about this new biz and get some REAL (and FREE) press!
It really looks to me like the present owners are willing to let their business die off so they can retire.
Do NOT buy into that company!
Building your own reputation from scratch is EASIER than trying to repair a poor one! The damage has already been done there.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
"I don't want to steal their business, but for me to succeed I'd have to take most of the major clients with me, the same clients who are pushing me to do it now."
Consider this. Those same clients may or may not come to you later for business. Nature of the beast. Your success shouldn't be based on them, but your own efforts. If they recognize those efforts, it will be their decision to leave the other company and hire you. The rest you have to earn.
Best of luck with your decision. Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Hmmmmmm. Keep in mind that for 10 years you have also been learning the business. I don't think you walked in there 10 years ago with all the information you have in your brain now or you would have been considering opening your own shop 10 years ago. But you didn't. You went to work for someone else- to learn.
"The only company they will consider letting me sub out to is charging us $18 psf for Edge prints"
That says something to me. To me that says they have to spend time with the files that are being sent to them. And that company is the only one that the owners trust to spend the time. Can you send out a file to someone who charges wholesale rates and get a satisfactory print? Because there is a jump there. A learning curve from sending out a design- and receiving a print that is the colour and quality you want/need. And you may find that buying a digital printer does not make that particular jump for you. You as the designer have to make that jump. And once you have your own printer- if you haven't already made the jump- it could cost you not only some material and time, it could cost you those clients you think will be loyal to you. If you are ready- start your own shop. If they are your loyal customers and they see your advertisements they will follow you. But don't steal from the people who gave you the opportunity to learn the business- and paid for all your mistakes for the last 10 years. I don't imagine 10 years ago when you started that the owners let you run it by yourself. And if they did you had a heck of a hand up learning on their pocketbook. Just my 2 cents.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
well the bottom line here is you have to follow your heart and do whats right for you. if you feel you are ready to run the business and handle everything on your own...then hey...the skys the limit. the only thing i would see as totally unethical is if you stole all the customer files "because you felt you already did the work"...that i would NOT agree with and if that was the case then you would have some scary-ass karma coming back to kick ya in the teeth. we live in america...free enterprise...business is business...if there is a need for digital and the current owners don't want to jump on it and you have to insight and desire to learn then go for it! if you don't do it then someone else will and that company will be in no better position. i personally never worked in the industry before starting my business. i just had the desire and mindset to learn it while i worked 2 other jobs. i still won't go after someone elses account and i sleep fine at night. good luck to you fictious person.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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If the company is in a downward spiral (or even if it isn't) and you feel the pull to be your own shop - by all means GO FOR IT.
As Dan and Karyn mentioned - DO NOT STEAL FILES AND TAKE THEM WITH YOU. That certainly would be unethical.
It's easy enough to duplicate the files when the time comes for a reorder - should those customers elect to move their business to you.
I don't really believe that any loyalty is due an employer just because you worked for them for 10 years and made your mistakes on "their dime."
This is why I feel that way: If a bad economical situation arose, or just plain mismanagement caused a financial hurt on your employer - they would not hesitate to release you or any combination of employees to adjust their bottom line and keep themselves solvent.
Plus - as an employee....you earned your wage by providing business opportunities to your employer. You traded service for money. You are not a lowly surf - indentured for lifelong service.
This is business....but, by the same token...my thought is you owe your employer nothing except for honesty, hard-work, respect and dedication while under their employ.
If the company this man/woman is working for is failing him financially, losing customers because of neglect, etc....or for no reasons except his/her dream is to become an entrepreneur - he/she should feel no guilt in beginning his/her business.
AND....I would expect he/she would go after any and all contacts after the split that they feel could bring them business.
They don't call it "free enterprise" for nothing. Competition is a given. To think that a break-away employee should not compete for business his ex-employer has is a self-centered, selfish dream of the ex-employer.
Business is all about "may-the-best-man/woman-win."
Customers have every right to purchase from who they wish. The loyalty that we all seek is generally the result of treating the customer with respect, honor, and competitive fairness as well as developing a personal relationship.
If employer A won't deliver those essential attributes, then break-away employee will win the race.
posted
I am not saying that the employee owes the employer anything but respect. And I am also saying that perhaps once out in the "Own my own shop world" things may not be what they are cracked up to be, (judging by the employee saying the employer won't go to a wholesale shop for some unknown reason). As a small business owner I know there are a lot of learning curves- and having never worked in the profession before owning my own business- I can show you in my books exactly where every learning curve is. Right from the first week with the cutter and trying to take cut rubber stencils off the backer and putting them on the boards -because I had never heard of transfertape. If these people are ready to retire why dish out to another learning curve? But respect them for not wanting to pay for someone else wanting that learning curve.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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