posted
I've been doing a bunch of squad cars the last few days here, and having a heck of a time with getting bubbles under the reflective. It seems no matter how I lay it down, or how hard I squeegee (with a new, un-nicked blade) I wind up having dozens of little bubbles. I'm using FDC's reflective, which has a nice bit of play for going over corners and curves. Anyone else deal with this or what am I doing wrong? All the cars have been out of the sun, but in a garage with no airconditioning. Heat has been steady low to mid 90's, with high humidity (typical eastern PA summer weather!)
Rick
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
That's pretty tough Rick - heat and humidity...
Check with FDC and see if they allow for using a wet method with their reflective.
Avery has cautioned against it with theirs...
If it's ok with them...use the wet method solution of your choice.
Also...have you tried the "hinge" method? Aligning the graphic...applying a vertical piece of masking top over the center to hold it in place on the car...and then pealing back one half of the graphic up to the masking tape barrier, ripping off the backing paper....and then firmly squeegeeing the exposed reflective vinyl back on to the auto surface starting at the center masking tape barrier line going outwards to the one end of the graphic?
Then you do the same with the remaining half?
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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Hiya Rick, A quck look at FDC's site was useless. They offered no literature, specifications or installation instructions on their site. I suspect that technique will play more of a problem than temperature, but I've been wrong before In hot weather, technique is critical. The adhesive on just about any vinyl will become quite agressive in high temperatures. The vinyl can not come in contact with the substrate until it's positioned correctly and you use a squeegee to push the vinyl down on to the substrate. If the vinyl makes contact before you squeegee it down, you will get air bubbles. Application or positioning fluids may help in two ways, but check to make sure you can use them. It will cool the surface a little, making the vinyl adhesive less agressive. It will also act as a spacer or slip sheet until you apply pressure with a squeegee, assuming it doesn't evaporate first
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Rick, I do reflective over reflective all the them. I do it wet (regardless of the mfg recommendations). Key thing to remember, is your squeege smooth! If it isn't, bubbles every time!! I spray both surfaces until saturated. After regeresting, use a felt squeegee to lay it down. I really lean into it with a good smooth squeegee (from the center on out), no problems!
Here's what we do with a fleet of Wreckers: Layer of chrome, White Reflective, then Blue Reflective on top. Looks Bitchen' during the day (Chrome stands out), but at night, the whole deal "lights up"!
Hope this helps. Mark
-------------------- Mark Neurohr "Ernest" Paintin' Place 141 Sunnyside Road Kittanning, PA 16201
posted
Thanks, all. Yep, tried the hinge method, the "tape in the center" and work your way out method, and just about everything else. My squeegee is smooth - if it isn't I usually sand the edge against another's rib until it is, unless the edge is too far gone. Funny thing is I never had this problem with Avery, even in this heat last year. Gave up on Avery when I had to re-do an entire fleet due to their vinyl failure(s), and my local distributor switched to FDC and 3M, which is going to be my next choice to try. Mark, I'm very wary of a wet application. Waht do you use, and have you had any sort of problems with getting all the fluid to release (evaporate) from under the vinyl?
Rick
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I'd recommend hosing down the car to cool it off before you start, and try to do it in the morning or the night, not in the hot part of the day.
We did some dark blue trash trucks last year with reflective and it was the worst nightmare ever. The vinyl was practically liquid in the 100 degree heat, and due to the concavity of the truck, the stuff stretched and was very sensitive to the pressure of the squeege. Ever seen tiger striped reflective?
We had to redo one side 6 times to get it right. Ate alot of the profit right out of the job. Starting before sunrise and stopping by 7 am was the only way it worked well.
posted
I don't know why my first post isn't showing up, but my suggestion was to hose it down to cool it off. Or do it early in the morning or at night when it's cooler.
Edited to say: Well now it's showing up. Go figure.
posted
Rick, most instances of "not evaporating out" are a result of cleaning the substrate (vehicle,etc.) with window cleaner,solvents,alcohol. Rapid Tac or TacII are "application fluids, not just positioning fluids" they will make easy work of your reflective applications etc..
I will send you some product samples if you promise to read and follow the instructions, or visit my site; www.rapidtac.com for more info.
e-mail your street address for the free samples.
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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Rick - in regards to reflectives: Don't do wet application on reflectives WITHOUT first checking with the manufacturer.
Avery expressly cautioned against using wet apps with their reflectives. Ask around, and see how many failures resulted in not heeding that advice....after awhile, the reflective looks like it's growing black mold all over it from the inside out. Ask me how I know.
3M works fine.
Side Note: All fluids used in the applying of vinyls to a substrate are "application fluids." You are using the fluid as an aid to apply one thing to another. The soap within that fluid is what allows repostioning.
Main Entry: ap·pli·ca·tion Pronunciation: "a-pl&-'kA-sh&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English applicacioun, from Latin application-, applicatio inclination, from applicare 1 : an act of applying: a (1) : an act of putting to use <application of new techniques> (2) : a use to which something is put <new applications for old remedies> (3) : a program (as a word processor or a spreadsheet) that performs one of the major tasks for which a computer is used b : an act of administering or superposing <application of paint to a house>
posted
Dusty, that's what I was getting, too. Tiger stripes. Hosing them off isn't an option since I'm working in the municipal garage. Roger - I'll give the RTII a try; I have some here at the shop. I was always under the impression that one never used anything under reflective! Todd - My Avery failure was the same - "mold" or delamination, but I never used an application fluid under it - it was strictly a vinyl issue. If you have been using the 3M with the RapidTac, I'll give that a try!
Rick
-------------------- Rick Tam Arte Design Studio Downingtown, PA milne2@msn.com Posts: 278 | From: Downingtown, PA | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Todd, its fairly obvious to anyone reading here that YOU are trying very hard to cast doubt and mistrust in my word or my products. Go play a different drum Todd, you are just an annoyence (in case I'm not spelling that correctly, why not make a big damn issue of that too?).
You Can't be that stupid to think posting definetions regarding the word application make a rats ass difference to anyone other then yourself in your relentless effort to discredit.
In my advise to others I point out that soap&water soluton was NOT designed for applying vinyl or any other self adhesive films. The BIG point is that Rapid application fluids do MORE then just delay bonding and therfore are MORE then "POSITIONING FLUIDS" GET IT TODD?
Then again, maybe you are that stupid ?
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
Ive noticed thatif you apply your vinyl while eating a PB&J that it makes it a much more enjoyable time..just watch out for crumbs between the substate and vinyl..
Jason D
-------------------- Jason Davie 193 Front Street Deposit, NY 13754 Posts: 976 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Roger - ?? I'm not discrediting anyone or anything...I've used your products...they work just fine...In fact, I have a bottle of Rapid Prep sitting here that I just bought and used on a job...
A lot of other products and solutions work just fine too.
I wouldn't cast dispersions on soap and water either (since you brought it up) because that method has worked for it's intended purpose for decades.
I'm just pointing out that once again...it seems to me that you are advising people to use a method (not specifically even pointing out your product) before ensuring they are recommended by certain manufacturers.
Why would you do that? That is not in the best interest of installers.
Like I said, Avery had specifically advised people NOT to use wet applications with a specific reflective vinyl of theirs - pointing out that it could cause failure. I simply, wisely, point out that it would be prudent to know what other reflective manufacturers recommend in regards to wet applications before you use them...whether it be soap and water, Rapid products, or cow whiz.
Are you smarter than the lab personel employed by the vinyl manufacturers?
You don't have a patent on the word "application"....
That word has been around a long time Roger...you don't appear to me to be a few hundred years old.
Based upon the definition posted...spit could qualify as an application solution. How do you know what soap and water was *designed* to do? If you have such intimate knowledge on the design purposes of soap and water tell me this:
1.) Who invented the soap and water technique? 2.) Where are published documents stating it's use - by the originator - and development as a quote/unquote positioning solution for the sign industry? 3.) What year and what location was it invented?
Scotchguard wasn't intended nor developed to be used as a fabric stain repellent...but it seems to work just fine.
I'll quit throwing out worlwide approved definitions straight out of the Webster dictionary when you quit trying to make them exclusively your own.
quote:You Can't be that stupid to think posting definetions regarding the word application make a rats ass difference to anyone other then yourself in your relentless effort to discredit.
That's an ironic statement - apparently YOU give a rat's ass about the word "application" and are yourself relentless in trying to twist it's meaning to your own benefit.
I have every right to call anything I want an application solution, especially when it's compatible with the common understanding of it's definition in the english language.
GET IT ROGER?
And I resent your constant inference that I'm "stupid." Shall we compare degrees? That kind of borders on defamation of character.
Edit: Rick - in the case of Avery applied dry exhibiting "mold" appearance and delam - water from rain, washings which come into contact with unprotected edges could cause the same problem. Avery had a ton of claims on some of their reflectives.
Without getting too technical, I had a similar problem. I ran Gerber reflective along side Avery, and the Avery had many issues. Gerber had zero problems, so it wasnt an application problem.
Avery sent replacment vinyl, and suggested that I apply it without any fluid. So, I did it dry just like the initial installation. Might be good to review this old post.
[ July 23, 2006, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3487 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Dang, I'd swear I've heard this argument about 40 times now.
Rick, get a bottle of Rapid Tac, soak the hell out of the reflective, slap it on there and squeegee it out. I've used it with 3M reflective, Avery reflective, Jesco Reflective and Nikkalite reflective. No failures, no mold, no rust. The stuff just works.
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Id like to slip in one more comment, then its back to the one on one with Roger and Todd.....
I had metalic gold vinyl turn black. Wet applied it, no problems for over a year, then it starts this black grunge growth.
The maufacture asked me to ask the customer if they bought a new power washer and was using that to wash the truck...so I did...and the customer said "YES, HOW DID YOU KNOW?"
Seems that the pressure washer they were using was so powerful it blew moisture under the edges of the vinyl and the grunge started and just look horrible after a few months.
The manufacture wouldn't stand behind the product, the customer is really put out with me (like its my fault) and wants the whole job redone for free!
I told the customer the manufacturer's "give a damn" was busted, so there wasn't much I could do for him. I asked him if the letters were curling up or coming off..and he said "NO"...so I said I did my part of the job right!
Sorry for the interuption....back to the good stuff!
posted
Thanks Pat, I know for a fact there are many many more folks that have your great results when applying reflective with Rapid Tac or TacII, we recomend TacII.
Most of our "mold testing" points at the residue under the vinyl (film) left from improper cleaning. Amonia (found in window/glass cleaners) is the big culprit, these residues (in a southern hummid environment)can grow mold under film in just a couple months.
Using Rapid Tac or TacII will NOT promote mold, we have had no mold growth due to cleaning and applying with Rapid products.
BTW TODD, does soap and water CLEAN the substrate without leaving a contaminating residue ?, does soap and water stimulate the adhesive to bond faster ?,the answer is NO,to both, thats why we refer to Rapid Tac and TacII as application fluids in comparison to the single benefit of soap and water being a slip (or positioning ) fluid only.
I don't lay claim to any words or terms, I use them, especially the ones that best describe a situation, method, etc..
I'm sure you understand the difference in benefits from the two, I'm also sure you don't care ! If your happy with soap and water, and wish to refer to it as a application fluid, well be my guest TODD, but, like you have stated to me "be sure you know what you are recomending people to use and what the consecuences may be" !
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
"Stimulant" or "Activator" makes much more sense Roger. A better marketing term might be "stimulator."
You don't see me promoting any particular wet application....people can use what they like. I've used yours, I've used mine.
Recommending ANY wet application without first knowing the manufacturers recommendations is HORRIBLE advice.
In the case of a particular Avery reflective, my buddy used Rapid Prep and Rapid Tac to install on a fairly large fleet of Police Cars. He experienced the same "mold" problems described. His distributor informed him that Avery did not recommend any wet application, and voided the warranty of wet apps with that particular reflective vinyl.
Now whether it was attributable to the wet app as a generic application or powerwashing that allowed water under the edges of the vinyl by the police garage during cleaning - he doesn't know...the point being that NO wet applications were advised by Avery.
I/he wouldn't put the blame on Rapid products per se, but rather not following Avery's advice and doing a wet application in general. Is this making sense?
Here is a link to Avery's installation/specification data sheet if quality and facts are important to you:
posted
I just wanted to say -- that I just experienced an issue with white avery reflective turning black with mold/mildew. I had three areas on the patrol care done - 2 done dry, and 1 done (larger area) wet with (soapy water/alcohol solution). All three areas turned moldy. So the dry vs. wet made no difference.
That being said, I do want to say one thing about Roger's products. Roger's glue remover--- man --- it just totally saved my butt this last friday, when the cars we're returned to me to replace the word 'police' which sits on top of black which in turn sits on red. I figured on having to strip the whole door from scratch. Well I managed to just get the 'police' off and then used Roger's stuff to get the glue-- it came off WITH EASE... and saved me HOURS of time.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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I think everyone here will agree that the Rapid Remover is a necessary tool in any vinyl environment. It is quick, clean, and smells better than anything it replaces.
The constant contraversy seems to be with the necessity of application fluids, (Rapid Tac or otherwise). The mold issue is a new one on me. Never had that happen here. But, we pretty much apply dry here.
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3487 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I just installed 215' of reflective 3M red on a gas station canopy in the air with a temp of 98. I did a wet application as recomended by my local 3m rep. and didn't see any bubbles. Before I did it I asked my local rep (3M's Mark Somonian) what fluid to use? He told me JOY soap and water. But he said only Joy soap. Why? I Dunno. But it worked great for that flat surface.
-------------------- Blake Wright The Sign Shop of Florence Florence S.C. Posts: 78 | From: Effingham, S.C. | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Blake - that's because it probably has no "hand lotion/skin softeners" in it...straight soap.
Same is true with classic Dawn. I've used this method for 20+ years with zero failures and zero complaints...
I'm not knocking Rogers products (as he thinks...) because I've used them on occasion too and they work well.
Agree with Rick on the Rapid Remover - great stuff.
AS far as the wet method - personal preference...I am happy with my home brew. Has been very reliable and after using a gallon of it, I figure I owe me and the wife a meal out on the town with the savings.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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As the saying goes, “I don’t have a dog in this fight”, however, I will mention part of a conversation I had with a knowledgeable Avery executive a couple of years ago.
We were discussing wet applications and the reason they are not recommended and he brought up the issue of oxidation of the Aluminum layer. The black moldy looking spots did not come up in our discussion since I hadn’t heard of, or experienced that.
After I mentioned Rapid Tac, he said, “If anyone’s wet product would work, it would be Roger’s. He has really done his homework and has done extensive testing. It is unlikely there would be any problem with his product, but our policy is that we cannot recommend wet applications.” In order to keep manufacturers’ warranties in effect, I still do my reflective applications dry, although, after that conversation, I feel confident Roger’s product won’t hurt on reflective. I guess you could sum this up with “caveat installer”.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Todd, FYI, Avery sells application fluid, called "Right On" they also sell adhesive remover, appropriatly named "Right Off".Guess they know what it sometimes takes to do the job right !
I doubt they would be steering folks in my direction !
Blake, sounds like your 3M rep at least understands the need for wet application of reflective (hes no doubt been there and done that), Blake if you would like a free sample pak of Rapid Products, email your street address to; mail@rapidtac.com We won't annoy you with calls or emails or mailings (ask anyone, honest)
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
The only comment/question I would have is..
After a year or so, how would anyone know if stuff was stuck to stuff with "application fluid" or "done dry"? After all, aren't you supposed to squeegie out all of the fluid to start with?
All the manufacturer has to go by is the installers word?
If I had a failure, I'd be hiding my Rapid Tac, every bottle of Shirl's dishwashing detergent, and turning off the water supply at the shop before a rep came to check things out!!!
It's like the edge sealing of SignGold thing...Manufacturer recommends it..but in well over 7 years of using it I have never edge sealed it..and as of today I have never had a failure. (But then I got lucky on the Avery failure thing too)
[ July 24, 2006, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
quote:Your last question Todd, check with some others here that followed Averys' instructions on films, and what they think of the warranty issue.
If that isn't belittling Avery's product, I don't know what is...
quote:Maybe I spoke and don't remember ?
That's entirely possible.
So, Roger...you never answered my question: Who makes Right On and Right Off for Avery? Since you brought it up...and mentioned they wouldn't steer anyone to your product?? I'm genuinely curious.
-------------------- Todd Gill Outside The Lines Potterville, MI Posts: 7792 | From: Potterville, MI | Registered: Dec 2001
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I don't know how MISS INFORMATION got started but I heard that MISS PUERTO RICO is the new MISS UNIVERSE. I think she was sponsored by Jif and Smuckers.
[ July 25, 2006, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
-------------------- Jon Jantz Snappysign.com jjantz21@gmail.com http://www.allcw.com Posts: 3395 | From: Atmore, AL | Registered: Nov 2005
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Todd, heres a thought; call Avery and find out !
And Todd, a product is what a company sells, a warranty is NOT a product nor are instructions, a warranty is simply a promise to perform in the event of a failure of said product.
You should maybe look THAT up in your Websters ;>) Want to continue, I have a large blader?
Roger
-------------------- Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated 186 Combs Dr. Merlin Oregon 97532 Posts: 3020 | From: Merlin Oregon | Registered: Dec 1998
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OK, everybody out! It's the cleaning lady come to do the stalls, this washroom is now closed for cleaning, please don't slip on the wet floor on the way out.
Are you guys for real?
-------------------- “Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?” -Winnie the Pooh & A.A. Milne
Kelly Thorson Kel-T-Grafix 801 Main St. Holdfast, SK S0G 2H0 ktg@sasktel.net Posts: 5496 | From: Penzance, Saskatchewan | Registered: May 2002
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quote:Avery sells application fluid, called "Right On" they also sell adhesive remover, appropriatly named "Right Off".Guess they know what it sometimes takes to do the job right !
I doubt they would be steering folks in my direction !
I just wonder where "Right On" comes from....you say Avery wouldn't "steer anyone in your direction." It must come from somewhere...I doubt they make it.
C'mon Roger...if you know tell me....is Right On any good?
posted
Belittling Avery's product? The same Avery that refuses to stand by their product? Ask Bert Quimby what he thinks of Avery after re-lettering over 100 trucks due to Avery's failure. They have totally abandoned the people who got screwed by their vinyl failures.
I myself will NEVER use another Avery product. 3 Police car redo's is enough for me.
"Some are born to move the world, to live their fantasies. But most of us just dream about the things we'd like to be." - Rush Posts: 1192 | From: Washington, NJ | Registered: Feb 1999
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Dan - you have to read between the lines regarding the Avery comments.
Mainly: the issue, once again...is manufacturer B recommending an application procedure for manufacturer A's product which may be specifically determined by manufacturer A to cause failure, and void a warranty. It could be Avery, or it could be any number of manufacturers.
It's not the only time this has occured here and I don't think it's in the best interest of sign makers. How can one argue against checking the application recommendations/specifications with the manufacturer before doing an install?
I no longer use Avery myself, but you can hardly recommend a method of application - no matter the manufacturer involved - that may be specifically advised against by the manufacturer and which may have adverse warranty implications.
If a manufacturer recommends against a "wet method" in general, one would assume that any wet solution is advised against. At the very least, when the question arises, Roger should advise checking with the manufacturer first.
posted
Roger, For a guy that makes a great product that is an industry leader you have an incredibly juvenile attitude. I think your responses and hostile language loses more customers than it gains.
And this is from someone who just ordered another gallon of Rapidtac.
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