posted
hey folks...i was just wondering if any of you folks use this type of paint on your carved/routed hdu signs. the reason i ask is i want to gold leaf the name in a sign i just did and i'm wondering which size you've had good luck with. i know that the porter acryllics and lefranc size don't work well together unless you paint on tycote first. i want to avoid any paint or size failure on this. when i was talking to my paint guy he told me the rule of thumb is no oil base over latex....and here i thought it was the other way around...lol...he said there are exceptions depending on whether or not there is alcohol in it and shellacs are a whole different story...this paint thing is way confusing.
anyhoo...ben moore 100%acryllic...will one shot slow set size work?
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
well a sample would mean do it and see what happens in a year or two...i'm just trying to see if others have used the combo successfully...ya know b4 i look like an ass.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Hey Karyn, I use BM (no pun intended) quite successfully , and yes, you can use oil over latex but not the other way around. I have used 1 Shot fast size, but let the paint "set up" for several days first. The combination of the gold and the soft gloss looks really nice. Rodger MacMunn uses latex all the time but I don't know what size he uses. Hey, Rodger....... MUR
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
haha murray...all the information i just googled is saying the opposite...latex over oil but not the other way. but i know plenty of people who use one shot over latex and haven't had problems. oy, there's got to be an easier way to color signs...lol
i guess i'll suck it up and do oneshot size and hope for the best...its a gift....not that it should matter...but it kinda does.
[ July 03, 2006, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Well now, karyn, gawd knows I wouldn't want to argue with google, but I have tried latex over oill with disasterous results. Think about the primer you use...if it's latex based, can you use oil paint over it? I believes the answer may be yes? The only exception that I know of is BM Fresh Start primer over well sanded oil paint. Sticks like sh#t to a blanket. MUR
-------------------- Murray MacDonald OldTime Signs 529 Third Ave S Kenora, ON. P9N 1Y3 oldtimesigns@gokenora.com Posts: 781 | From: Kenora, ON | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
At the Zoo meet a couple of weeks ago, Gary Anderson stated that the reason Ti-Cote is necessary now on any waterborne acrylic paint is that LeFranc has changed the formulation of their size slightly to meet USA environmental standards. Kent Smith confirmed this. Ti-Cote is not required on oil based paints.
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
i hear ya murray...i always thought the way you do(& still do)...plus i know many people who use oneshot over latex and its fine. i'm so confused by paint these days, i just would like to find something that works 100% no bullshyt...no fans at an angle..no put your left foot in, take your right foot out crap. when i said to my paint guy...."well how come i can use a waterbase primer and use an oil topcoat and thats fine?".....primers don't count i guess...depending on the primer you can sometimes mix...but he said its best to use the same base primer and topcoat.... yeaaaaah okay.... dave...yeah i spoke with gary about that...thats why i wasn't going to use lefrancs...but one shot slow size hhmmmm? i wasn't sure on that but i think i'm just gonna try it and see. i did do a goldleaf w/one shot on a porter paint sign. we'll see if it messes up like lefranc would without the ticote. gosh luckily these are gifts...lol! hey i'm gonna experiment on the gifts. thanks for your input.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I have been using LeFranc for several years and don't plan on changing because it works so well for me. It has been the most consistent of all sizes that I have used as far as set times and my gilding window. I still have some of the old formula in stock.
When going to the new formula, adding a layer of Ti-Cote would only increase my labor by a few minutes on a job where it is required. The majority of mine will not need Ti-Cote since I usually have shellac under my Gold (I mostly gild Granite).
-------------------- David Harding A Sign of Excellence Carrollton, TX Posts: 5089 | From: Carrollton, TX, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I have been using nothing but Ben Moore Impervex Latex Enamel, (sprayed, rollered, and brushed) for the last 8+ years.
I have been gilding on latex with great results for years. I use LeFranc slow size, and gild anywhere from 24 hours, to 3 days. (once again, depending on humidity.
I make sure the surface is well coated, and not porous.
The key to latex is really "working-it" into the HDU with a spray gun, roller, or brush. If it doesn't get into the pores, it is just sitting on the surface. Let the paint cure properly. I hear so many people saying they can "get 2-3 coats on in a day",....that is not good!
Let your latex paint cure for at least 12-24 hours per coat depending on humidity.
Buy a Sling Psycrometer, (a dual bulb thermometer with a "wet-sock" on one bulb to determine humidity). Bacharach Inc. Pa. Learn to read humidity in your shop, and you will sleep better knowing your paint will cure properly, and survive.
Humidity, and air quality are important to curing of latex paint. In the winter months, the warm dry air from the furnace is ideal to curing latex paint, but in the summer, the humidity could be a real pain.
Like most paints, more thin coats are better than few thick coats.
Latex paint does "out-gas" like any other paint. If your paint is applied with too many thick coats, without proper curing, the "skin" of the paint will soften when it rains the first few times, the paint could blister and show as bubbles. Avoid this by allowing latex paint to cure between coats 12-24 hours.
OK, I rambled on too much.
Peace out, Bob
[ July 04, 2006, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: Bob Kaschak ]
-------------------- "The 3-4 minute mark of "Freewill" by Rush.
Bob Kaschak Artisan Sign And Design Peru New York Posts: 1875 | From: Upstate NY | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
a good reasonably priced infraRed heat stand as used in body shops can cure any kind of paint much faster without upsetting the apple cart of life at a sign shop. Watching paint dry, dries up the fun of doing your job
posted
The full issue that Gary and I were referring to is that pure acrylic waterbased and waterbournes will adhere well to all paints, varnishes and sizes and they to it. Where the breakdown occurs is in the formulations of "latex" which contain either real latex, vinyls or emulsifiers which may contian either. For the record, we created Ti-cote as a pure acrylic which could be used as a primer, a tie-cote (intermediary coating between other finishes allowing them to adhere to each other) or a top coat. As a pure acrylic, it naturally has protective values and a natural surface tension/texture to allow good adhesion. These same properties can be true of many high end pure acrylic paints, but not all. The reason for considering Porter is that they have been forthcoming, partly because their parent company once owned OneShot and because of Gary's efforts, we know their formulation is similar to Ti-Cote. As to which gold size, other than a smooth finish, the choice is but one of personal preference. No oil or varnish gold size will adhere to any latex which contains a vinyl or real latex anymore than an enamel or varnish.
-------------------- Kent Smith Smith Sign Studio P.O.Box 2385, Estes Park, CO 80517-2385 kent@smithsignstudio.com Posts: 1025 | From: Estes Park, CO | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
so basically if i want to use latex i need to be putting on ticote b4 i size. well alrighty then i guess i need to buying that too. is there a specific brand of ticote...or is there just one? i'm sorry i sound like such a doedoe but it's confusing. now if a latex is 100%acrylic...does that eliminate the ticote step?
thank you btw for explaining this in my terms~
[ July 05, 2006, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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I just completed a sign using 100% acrylic Ben Moore. This was my first departure from One Shot. Be prepared to laydown at least 3 coats. Also, the idea of using this stuff for lettering is absurd.
Victoria
Posts: 17 | From: Sausalito, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Hey Karyn, I have been using Latex house paints since 1993. I have probably one hundred or more signs out there with gold- one shot fast size. Always used them on HDU or wood. Never had a problem with it. But 2 months ago I was working on a cement piece. I have never done cement before- I did let it cure the 28 days before painting, but I used a cement primer on the entire thing. I may regret that yet. (It was my construction husband who talked me into that one. Should have listened to my letterhead buddies and used regular latex primer)Then on top of the initial paint I went in and sized. The gold came off in layers- chunks the size of my thumb. I freaked- called Pete Payne "AAAAAAA Pete I got gold problems". This was just before he went down to Cinncinati to the meet. Pete phoned me back and told me what Gary Anderson had said. I have now sanded off $350 worth of gold and Ti-coated and regilded. Finished Sunday afternoon at 4. We had a wicked storm blow in last night. Tornadoes touched down etc. So this morning I scrambled to town to check the gild- as I am a little leery- but all is fine. To make a long story short- 6 months ago I would have said not to worry, size over latex 100%, but this "change" in the make-up of the one shot size scares me. Use the Ti-coat to prime. It doesn't take long and hopefully will save you some grief.
-------------------- Deri Russell Wildwood Signs Hanover, Ontario
You're just jealous 'cause the little voices only talk to me. Posts: 1904 | From: Hanover, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 1998
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posted
thanks again for the replies. deri it was lefranc that changed it formula on size...not sure about oneshot though. that's what i'm really wondering...is it still safe to use oneshot on latex? or is the ticote the best way to go regardless? do you think it was the cement primer that caused your failure or was it only the size that came off? too many deadlines to work on the gift now but i know i'll have to get to it soon.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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