quote:Originally posted by Tim Whitcher: Maybe I'll hold off on buying that printer.
I have said it time and time again... There are too many companies out there that are doing digital printing, that its just not worth going to the expense of the printer/supplies/shop upgrades/training/ etc.
For these prices, smile, take the customers money, and tell them "yes, I can do you a multi color banner, and have it done in a couple of days."
-------------------- Mark Kottwitz Kottwitz Graphics Ridgely, MD www.SeeMySignWork.com -------------------------- Imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein Posts: 746 | From: Ridgely, MD | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
but it is kinda nice havin one...and there are many people that just would have no idea what kind of file to send for print...so we are a great source....but yeah the future should be interesting. what may work for some depending on location, is to get acquainted with a few large corp accounts that just want to send you an email stating the facts and you design it produce it and everyone is happy. i think service definitely is going to be the deciding factor between the online & local business battle. for instance, say a customer gives me a file...i open it...check it out for obvious errors and produce it...or if the bitmap was too fuzzy i would call back and say..hey this will look like crap when i blow it up and print it...and we will find a solution...one of the "blow it out online places" aint gonna give a rats asss...you are responsible for what you send.
-------------------- Karyn Bush Simply Not Ordinary, LLC Bartlett, NH 603-383-9955 www.snosigns.com info@snosigns.com Posts: 3516 | From: Bartlett, NH USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Patience, patience....these people have a way to wipe themselves off the business world....same thing happens in the vinyl world...stick to your pricing. They can only do it for a while!
-------------------- Mario G. Lafreniere (Fergie) J&N Signs Winter did show up! Posts: 1257 | From: Chapleau, Ontario | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
"There's to many out there doing vinyl cut letters and designs", "There's to many out there doing digital printing".... what's the next "There's to many out there doing.....?"
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
i have to agree....it is not worth it AT THIS MOMENT to purchase one. i would rather order it and not have to worry about the machine itself cracking up.
but as karyn said it would be nice to have one at your side
-------------------- You ever notice how easily accessible people are when they are requiring your services but once they get invoice you can't reach them anymore
posted
I don't quite buy into the notion to *not* buy a digital printer because too many other people have them...and they sell the product too cheaply.
There are plenty of customers that are not comfortable buying their sign products *on-line* and don't know how to get them installed if they did.
Most talented sign people - like those posting here - would be surprised at how busy they stay if they had that service to offer in-house.
But if that doesn't work out in your vision, David makes a great point about subbing it out.
My buddy had his digital printer running a job from 11:00 am Friday morning till 4 am Saturday morning on various jobs.
He stays plenty busy, and he isn't even all that great a designer....
I know that without the printer, he'd have a whole lot less business these days. The fact that somebody else sells it for almost nothing hasn't seemed to affect him at all.
Again, not saying it's a *must*....and there are other ways to get the output and owning is not the only way to skin the digital cat, but it's one additional venue to add to your sign-shop arsenal, and one that I believe is positive.
Owning also gives you more control over the end product....let's you test output before generating it, ensure all colors meet your expectations, etc.
How about you Karyn? How has having your digital printer impacted your business?
posted
We need some form of digital printing in our shop, for our customers, and the rest we sub out.
My Edge 1 has really been a nice investment, but now we need something bigger.
What some folks forget is that many customers need digital printing NOW, same day or bright and early the next day and they need it perfect with some layout help. That's where we have made out good with the Edge for our regular customers.
I can't count how many times we were lettering a vehicle or a banner and the customer relized we could add a digital graphic of something, and either brought in a picture or we took a picture of the product and added it to the job.
That's when its nice to have the printer in the shop. To depend soely on the printer to make a living, we couldn't do it.
posted
Its a good thing the construction business doesn't have some of the same attitudes as demonstrated in this thread. Imagine refusing to purchase a new fangled hammer because it makes building homes faster and cheaper.
Digital printers are just a tool. How much money they generate is up to you.
I'm seriously considering buying a wideformat printer. The market has finally grown enough that it is becoming feasable and self-supporting. The only thing that really confuses me is which machine will best fit my needs.
posted
The point isn't the tool, but the value (i.e. selling price) of the product produced. I remember (a short year ago) when people here were giddy about selling 3 x 10 full color banners for $300.00 +; printing from the customer's file. Now, the customer can email the file to any of the hundreds of online printing companies, and pay $80.00, some places include layout and shipping. How many $80.00 3x10 banners do you have to run through a Versacamm to make your payments? Staples will print 24 x 36 digital prints, laminated and mounted on foamboard for $40.00. They're doing banners, too.
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
IF someone gives us a file with good quality
These shops bought printers because the sales people showed them a mighty full colour image and told them "If you had one of these printers, you could produce stuff like this too". The reality is they can't. They can only print something fancy if the customer gives them a design on file. The end result is that to pay for the machine they need to offer low prices to get the work.
Designing and laying out a banner usually takes a lot longer than printing and finishing a banner so these shops could make money by producing more banners in less time. The reality is that the image quality supplied by the customer is usually crap and so will the final banner be.
All these budget shops can compete on is price, they have nothing else to offer. Most of our customers prefer to get a good design which makes their signs or banners more effective for the job they were intended, hence they get better value for money.
-------------------- James Kelly Ireland Posts: 43 | From: N. Ireland | Registered: Dec 1998
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-------------------- Jon Aston MARKETING PARTNERS "Strategy, Marketing and Business Development" Tel 705-719-9209 Posts: 1724 | From: Barrie, ON, CANADA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
It's the modern day equivalent to the wave of vinyl only shops...everyone's on the bandwagon and, even if they have the design skills of a labotomized ferret, they figure that being in the market means that it will be profitable.
You can re-read every commentary ever written on how vinyl plotters changed the sign industry, both for better or worse, and easily replace the word "plotter" with "digital printer". So much for for speculation. They're both computer output devices, and no different that the rest of those products, the cost of the machinery will continue to drop and be readily available to people who don't have design backrounds, don't understand the market and think that "keeping busy" mean they will make more money.
The basics rules still apply...
Quality design work is still the foundation. Without it, you just have another machine in the building that, although capable of doing some great work, isn't. The shops who concentrate on good design will survive.
It's fairly new technology. There' plenty of manufacturers out there that have sold these machines based on warranties and the longevity of the output materials. Hard to know if a digital print job is going to last 5-7 years until some have been out there that long. Until then, it's unproven.
Personally, I think they are pretty cool machines and I've done some neat stuff with them since moving to Georgia, but in all honesty, I can't see where the wave of enthusiasm is coming from to get one. The majority of them are popping up in the same shops that crank out vinyl with reckless abandon and, like it or not, it''s gonna be the wave until the next new machine comes along...and flood the industry as much as low cost vinyl has. It's a tool, no different than a hammer. Unless you know how to use it to it's fullest, you're likely to have a lot more than sore thumbs when you "miss" the target. That'll result in jobs being done several times wrong instead of right the first time. Lotta profit gets lost there.
The value of a tool is only equal to the skill of the hand that weilds it.
My 2 bits... Rapid
-------------------- Ray Rheaume Rapidfire Design 543 Brushwood Road North Haverhill, NH 03774 rapidfiredesign@hotmail.com 603-787-6803
I like my paint shaken, not stirred. Posts: 5648 | From: North Haverhill, New Hampshire | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Ray Rheaume: Quality design work is still the foundation.
it may be a foundation somewhere, but not in the majority or areas. There are a plethera of sign shops cranking out stuff you can't read and making a boat load of money. So tell me again how quality design is the foundation?
-------------------- Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA 508-865-7330
"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you." Posts: 5149 | From: Millbury, Mass. U.S. | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Quality design is not the foundation of all or even most shops, but is an effective way to compete with low priced competition.
So if you can sell a well designed 3' x 10' banner for $300, does that mean you should own a printer?
I wrestle with this every year, because I would prefer to produce these (and many other things) in house.
But if I can produce the quality file that allows me have a good looking $300 banner printed for $80, am I still better off printing my own?
Every time I do the math, the cost of the subcontracted prints has dropped and the price of the labor, printer, media and with rare exception the ink has risen.
I keeping increasing our sales and I'm no closer to justifying this now than I was three years ago.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Ya'll are the biggest bunch of pessimists I have ever seen! Don't you realize you are as "valuable" as you think you are? If you are good at what you do--maybe the best in your area at a specific thing--act like it and charge accordingly.
But what I keep hearing from this crowd is the fallacy that your price is determined by what the OTHER GUY is charging.
Here's a novel idea--CHARGE YOUR OWN RATE--and stick to it. And then watch your reputation GROW.
Why?
Because of perceived VALUE! When you hit people (the customer base) over the head with the money stick, the best of them will see that you are worth what you are charging.
LOOK, people buy 150.00 nikes and 300 dollar jeans when there's a Wal-Mart on every corner.....why?
Think about that--and you might be wanting that printer after all....
I charge close to twice as much as some of my competition. My customers know when they want a carved sign with 23K gold, or a custom paint job on their Harley there isn't anyplace else aroung here. It also weeds out the tire kicking bottom feeder who doesn't have two quarters to rub together that wastes my time.
If you don't think this works, I am booked until mid July.
EDIT: I want to clarify that even though I charge quite a bit more, I give them quite a bit more. It is not an apples to apples comparison.
[ May 17, 2006, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Jerry VanHorn ]
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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posted
I guess the reason I brought this all up is that I have a customer who laid out their own file for a banner using an $80.00 software package they downloaded off the internet. They have very little computer experience, and no layout experience that I know of. It was the typical digital print type layout: photographic image with a vinette, bold type with a beveled edge and pattern fill ("green marble") and a color fade background. Actually looked pretty good, and would've "wowed" the typical customer. The guy did it in a half an hour. Wanted me to print the banner. I didn't get the job. Staples or Office Depot probably did. I know this is not the norm, but in a few years... I know my first website cost $3,500.00 to be designed six years ago. My new one, with all the bells and whistles (not on line just yet) cost $1,500.00. Do I see a trend, here?
-------------------- Tim Whitcher Adrian, MI Posts: 1546 | From: Adrian, MI | Registered: Mar 1999
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quote: I don't quite buy into the notion to *not* buy a digital printer because too many other people have them...and they sell the product too cheaply.
HHmmm...Kinda sounds alot like "there are too many snappers with a brush now adays" don't it?
The strong will survive. Just gotta put up with a little crap along the way
-------------------- Snow's Sign Works 865-908-0076 snowman@planetc.com www.snowsigns.com
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... Posts: 1640 | From: Sevierville, TN | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug Allan: yep...us minority with printers have cornered the market... no sense in any of the rest of y'all bothering to get one now
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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posted
I'll tell ya I'm glad theres not a CNC on every street corner. How would you like to see carved signs for $5 Sq/Ft?
-------------------- Jerry VanHorn, Pres. Pure Sports Designs, LLC Pro Sign Design / United Wholesale Signs www.prosigndesign.comwww.unitedwholesalesigns.com West Liberty, OH 937-465-0595 866-942-3990 Since 1990 Posts: 925 | From: West :Liberty, OH | Registered: May 2004
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