posted
another BAD DAY!!! ...actually yesterday was the peak of this miserable situation... but it won't fully be behind me for a year.
sorry in advance for the long rant, but I know you folks willl better understand the injustice of this situation then most people...
Some of you may have seen a yellow page ad I designed last September. During my negotiations I ended up getting upsold to a half page instead of a quarter page because I decided it was a good investment of my advertising dollars.
Please don't make this a thread about how nobody else thinks YP ads are worth the money... I know I am in the minority... but I am on a small island in the middle of the pacific & a lot of things are different here... YP ads work here... 10 years experience, believe me, they work for me... especially if they are designed well!
...so, the book came out yesterday & even though I committed to paying for a half page ad, I designed & submitted high res. art for a half page ad (& should have received a proof)...some loser in their "design" department must have got some relic of an earlier discussion mentioning a quarter page... & without so much as a word or a question to anyone... proceeded to attempt to force a landscape orientated ad into a portrait orientated space.
The result, as one might suspect, is so far from the original.... that me not paying for the ad won't nearly compensate me enough for the lost advertising value when I've already determined that this year will require a serious step up in my marketing to support last falls renovation, equipment purchases & increased staff (not to mention this springs projected staff increase)
and wait till you see the horrorshow they have distributed all over the island with my name on it...
in addition to lost advertising value... this is like slander to broadcast my name in the midst of the entirely chaotic mess these fools have burdened me with... I practically feel like I've been shot! I pasted in my approved ad design over 2 other competitors quarter page ads that should have followed my bigger ad.
My sales rep has been the same for the last few years & she agreed yesterday to rush to the higher ups to see what form of "adjustment" they would make. I told her "my not paying for this ad at all was a given"... but beyond that... the additional marketing I will now have to do to make up for this crisis is where I hope to see some attempt by them to right this wrong. I told them I wished they owned other local advertising mediums, because this is where the only solution lies.
The "offer" came today & stings almost as much as the initial offense.
Before hearing any offer, I went down the list of showing how my ad attempts to determine my messages, then prioritize the importance of each element, then attempts to display the message in an esthetically pleasing manner.
Their ad wrecks havoc on both fronts...
The branding of my new sign (& logo) was given a full 50% level of priority in my ad (about 20% in theirs)
the short "digital printing leader" blurb was intentionally downplayed to less then 10% relevance in my ad... with the "NOW OFFERING" in all caps & centered as a bit of a focal point... their ad gives it 25% priority in size & top priority in contrast... while at the same time chopping up the line breaks & making "NOW OFFERING" look ridiculous. (plus they changed 60" to 60')
My secondary panel showing a list of products & services was laid out carefully, flush right & left... as it has always been done in every ad & business card for 9 years & amounting to less then 15% of the ad... but again, well framed for overall balance. but their pukejob layout crammed a CH away from the border is laid out so ugly it wastes half the space it uses...AND USES 3 TIMES MORE THEN IT EVER SHOULD!!! (and the wrong font)
well... disregarding the altered placement & version of credit card logos I provided... my last gripe is the phone numbers. Mine were like 5% of the ad... big enough to read, but not smacking people upside the head with them... & mine were in the font I have used on every marketing piece for 9 years... their butt-ugly BS takes up 20% of the ad & ends up twice the size mine were on an add half the size!!!
...OK, rant over. I know you folks see the difference without me spelling out all of it, but this post may get used if I need to justify my concerns in writing at some later date.
After stating the design flaw & marketing sabotage issues described above they wanted to tell me their offer... I told them to take an hour & really think about all the new information I just gave them before they made any offer... because I didn't want a rush offer, I wanted a fair offer. They called back in an hour & only offered me 30% off this year... & a 3/4 page ad next year for a 1/4 page price.
I told them I may not be in business next year if something isn't done NOW to correct the harm they have done me with this ad. I told them I would have rather been left out of the book, then have this blasphemous mockery of the basic rules of design being attached to my name in public. I will not pay for this ad & I'll never look at this phone book again this year! I threw away my 2 copies already... (sorry... I'll recycle extra this year to make up for it)
In retrospect, maybe I would suffer more if they had left me out of the book... & I know most people won't see how bad this design is... but I am pretty bummed today for sure... can't concentrate on work at all
posted
I can sympathize. I've had errors in my ad, including a wrong address one time and a wrong placement another time. The address was wrong for the same reason your ad got mucked up, for some reason they decided to relay out the ad. I have been through the mill with them and there is little that I was able to do. I settled for a discount in the end.The consumer protection/attorney general etc all have no real power here, the yellow pages is not the same as the phone company, it's not considered part of the "public utility". And though I agree with your assessment of the differences in the ad, I doubt any type of court would see the same "damage". So.. I would just keep battling to get the best deal you can. Good Luck.
posted
If you need this for ammunition. I got my college degree in Graphic Communitions in 2000. so here's my take on it. Doug, your ad reads like a book. The eye starts at the top left and reads across the page, down a line, across the page, etc. The eye ends in the bottom right hand corner and then the ad draws the eye back up.
Their ad: My eye goes to your logo, then the NOW OFFERING (missing everything in between), then down to the next blue box (but doesn't do anything to encourage the eye to take in what the text is saying, then my eye goes down to the phone number and just kinda stays there. There isn't the movement in the ad that makes the eye want to keep reading the ad over and over.
Just my take on it.
ps. I didn't even notice the first time reading that there was payment/credit card logos in the ad.
-------------------- Laura Butler Vision Graphics & Sign 4479 Welch Rd Attica, Mi 48412 Posts: 2855 | From: Attica, Mi, USA | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Pretty much shows how much better you do layouts than their in-house graphic artist, huh? And your layout is a lot better than the one next to it, too.
Hope you get this resolved, Doug.
One more thought, you may be right when you said, "I know most people won't see how bad this design is... " Even tho it isn't what you ordered, it still DOES look better than the one next to it!
Cheer up
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Welcome to the club Doug. I'm sure you remember my rants over verizon's worthless yellow pages... ya know, where I was suppost to get 1 free listing & 1 paid listing. I got 1 WRONG listing and a bill...
I know this is no consolation to you, but... at 1 of my networking group's meetings, we had an impromptu "bitch session" about the YP. Out of the 20 people there, not 1 had anything even neutral to say about them. At least 15 of the 20 had an ad that was severly screwed up by the incompetents the YP hires in china to slaughter the ads they are supplied with. (wrong phone number for example, wrong category, or wrong name... who in their right minds would look for Wildfire Signs under Signs Wildfire?????) 2 can't advertise in verizon's book cause 1 doesn't have a business line, he has a cell phone as his business line. (even though it's a verizon phone, hmmm, that's a different rant altogether) and another has a different phone company for his service.
My point being, I assume your target market is businesses. A vast majority of businesses have been screwed by the YPs. They may not hold your ad against you as much as a retail consumer may, because they've been bent over by the YP just like you are. However, I think taking a few $ off and giving you an upgrade you don't necessarily want next year is a huge insult.
The snake oil salesmen the YP sends around try to convince us that advertising in their directory is necessary for us to succeed in business and that we have to waste oodles of $ for a bigger ad than someone else. Then when they screw the ad beyond belief, they don't want to compensate us for all that "lost advertising". I smell a rat. Why is it worth so much when they're selling, but worth so little when we buy & they screw it up? Know that list of car dealers & realtors that we don't like? Add YP thieves to it.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
For the past few years I've put a notice on all of the "proofs" we've sent to the YP folks that we are not responsible for payment if the ad is modified in any way without our expressed written consent.
posted
Doug, that sucks man. Been there...had it happen twice to me and a couple of more times when I was still working with my dad ( they got the phone # wrong one year!)
I'm with ya on not paying them. If you did a sign for there local office and it didn't look like they approved it, they wouldn't pay. So why should you.
Fight to the end.
-------------------- Snow's Sign Works 865-908-0076 snowman@planetc.com www.snowsigns.com
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... Posts: 1640 | From: Sevierville, TN | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
YEs, the ad is nothing like what you want. However, it is stil lbetter than the others in all repsects.
30% off the 1/4 page size BLACK AND WHITE add is not all that bad.. But 30% off the half page add is nothing but a friggin insult.. Plus next years huge discout will be good. PLUS a distinctive RING option for free too. Then you can test your yellow page effectiveness. This could turn into lemonade..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Not to change the subject or to derail the train, but THAT'S the exact reason why I no longer purchase YP ads. 9 times out of 10, the ad is absolutely wrong.
Like cheap is to realtors, retardation is to YP ad sales and designers!
[ January 04, 2006, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
""Good judgment comes from experience; and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" - Will Rogers Posts: 3487 | From: Beautiful Newaygo, Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: I smell a rat. Why is it worth so much when they're selling, but worth so little when we buy & they screw it up?
exactly Kissy, I told them this morning that the cruel irony was that my best justifications for my claim for compensation reads just like a sales pitch for YP ads... The value of the ad they sold me was supposedly worth so much more then it costs... so now that they robbed me of it... how can 30% off a medium ad ever take the place of getting 0% of a big ad?
I just got off the phone with the customer service person my sales rep hooked me up with to point out another fact. Behind my paste up of the ad I ordered, there are 2 more 1/4 page ads... both are 1 color ads. One is for a guy who downsized & he does deserve the top left position (by their rules)... but the other ad that got ahead of me in this book should have come after both the color ads, because that guy had a smaller ad then both of us last year & signed up to spend less then each of us this year.
Guess who that was? ...yep, the guy who started up the supply company thats ripping off my name.
Ray made a good point (short, but sweet) so I mentioned that too.. how can they expect me to pay anything for a quarter page ad when they have absolutely no authorization from me for anything to do with a quarter page ad? She said that was a good point & she would go back "upstairs" I also asked for 60% off instead of 30%... not 1, but 2 years of a 3/4 pg ad at the price of a 1/4 pg. ad.
wish me luck
[ January 04, 2006, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
posted
DONT foreget the distinctive RING option...
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
ok... I think you may mean the same thing as when they run a unique phone number in their book only... that I don't give out anywhere else... & when those calls come in, they are routed top my same one & only actual phone in the office (but with the douible ring) & I will recognize whenever I get calls from that specific book & will also be provided with specific logs of all the calls on that number.
I've always wanted to try that, & around here, they don't charge for that service, but they offer it to an exclusive few business's & never 2 in the same business... & they get to use the tracking data for their sales purposes also.
I never took advantage of it, but getting a big ad next year may be a good time to try it. (the unfamiliar phone number was always a slight concern of mine... but I guess people looking it up, obviously didn't know the number... so it wouldn't make them think I sold or moved or anything)
posted
I did the d ring years ago,, It was great, It proved my theory that genuine lead calls are few. Yes, the distinctive ring came in and got a number of calls. However, there were a lod of them from present clients just callign for info anyway.. So, I proved to myself that the yellow pages did not need my several hundred bux a month..
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Doug, Breech of contract sounds good. It's like putting the wrong name of a loved one in the obituary! Well, it sounds cruel, but, to an excellent sign designer it is you that feels it and is harmed professionally. It sounds like someone is walking over you, but you are the better man. I say hit them in the pocketbook, demand enough money for a full color ad in the newspapers (and watch them as they do the setup), therefore, each week everyone will be reminded if they don't read the paper the week before. Also get enough money to silk screen or do enough edge graphic prints for magnetics to be sent to each business listed, old and new. That may be the resolution to "future damages remaining." You know what I mean. Doesn't hurt to try, but I do want to say that some of the folks won't notice as much as you do. I'll say one more thing. I know that the point about taking credit cards not being seen is a valid issue you can bring to the table for negotiating since they don't have a clue about design problems to start with. You did complain in the right place, Doug.
-------------------- Deb Fowler
"It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney (1901-1966) Posts: 5373 | From: Loves Park, Illinois | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
They're supposed to be all about communication, but their own attempts at it make you wonder just what business they really are in.
I've been in the same boat on a different scale- I sent them a vectored design, and they wanted a bitmap, so I did that, and they couldn't open that version, (they used Pshp5) so I redid it, and also sent seps in both aged vectro formats & bitmaps, and they put the fuzziest excuse for a 50 dpi scan of the logo in the proof they sent me that I've ever seen...colours wrong, red outlines on black text, just as different as Doug's two designs, but to the uninitiated, very similar...
Good luck with your negotiation!
PS I think I may be in the market for a 60' banner, I'll email you a layout!
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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Doug - I know ya gotta be P.O.'d - I would be also - however they did do a professional re-work of your layout - don't blame the person who re-created it - he/she only takes orders from boss - they prob'ly had to create or re-produce 10 or 15 ads that day - - all that being said they should comprimise big time on cost - I would offer 20 cents on the dollar of original contract. . .
-------------------- Carl Wood Olive Branch, Ms Posts: 1392 | From: Olive Branch,MS USA | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
One thing to be really careful of, if this YP ad is really that important to you in the future, they could decide to not renew you in the future. I have seen business's in my area not get ads because of non payment in past years. Your hardball could end up being hit out of the park.
-------------------- Carper's Signs 594 Union School Rd. Mount Joy, PA 17552 carpersign@earthlink.net Posts: 157 | From: Lancaster, PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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That sucks Doug, it really do. I can't add anymore than what's already been said, only to try and get as much compensation as you can get, you deserve it.
And by the way thanks for all your support on my issues as well.
-------------------- "Keep Positive"
SIGNS1st. Neil Butler Paradise, NF Posts: 6277 | From: St. John's NF Canada | Registered: Mar 1999
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Take these useless c*cks*ckers to court. Don't settle for a free ad, sue for damages inflicted by the unauthorized butchering of your most important advertising. Seriously, Doug, find the most obnoxious junkyard-dog shyster in the islands and beat them with an ugly stick til they howl. Unless this costs the YP company a pile of money - and gets whoever responsible fired - it's not going to make an impression or get you any respect.
Are you all starting to get the sense of how I feel about the Yellow Pages?
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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Doug, you art lucky they didn't change your logo like they did mine. They had someone with no talent redo my logo so it looked very unprofessional. That is probably the worst thing that can happen to a sign company. I did not pay for that ad and have down sized our ads ever since. Good luck on the outcome.
-------------------- Bill Riedel Riedel Sign Co., Inc. 15 Warren Street Little Ferry, N.J. 07643 billsr@riedelsignco.com Posts: 2953 | From: Little Ferry, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Feb 1999
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Doug, I'm pretty stunned at how they can mess up THAT much. You say they should have sent a proof, and then the book just came out.
Were you not aware of the deadlines for final proof verifications? Whenever I've designed ads, I've always obtained their proofs and have known the deadlines in which they worked with.
I realize it's hindsight at this point, but I simply don't get how it got this out of hand to begin with. I really like the warning of withholding payment unless proof had been seen and signed off.
I hope you gain decent compensation. Perhaps they can give you FREE advertising for the entire following year as part of the deal.
quote: I simply don't get how it got this out of hand to begin with.
...well Donna, you have a point there. Amidst the massive ball-dropping, client-screwing, design-hacking going on down there, I am not blind to several small contributing factors resting on my shoulders.
For one, I have consistently waited until the absolute last 11th hour deadline to begin my ad designs. It has always worked in the past & although there is no logic to that behavior... it's continued because it had worked, & the pressure forced me to design fopr myself... when under all normal circumstances I am inflicted with the all too familiar design blocks on my own marketing due to an overload of design work due for my clients.
A second bit of involvement in the resulting mess is that I did discuss a 1/4 page ad previous to my decision to go with the 1/2
The last & most serious share of the blame for me is to not have inquired after a proof. Because we have 3 different phone books, & I designed & submitted ads for all 3, each in sequence, seperated by a few weeks... the whole annual ordeal drags on long enough with 2 or 3 rounds of final proofs on top of the sales haggling & initial ad design submission (oh, this is why they call it "submission" )... that this one proof got over looked.
If they sent me an ugly proof... of course it would have been dealt with... but can anyone say coincidence? ...no, I didn't think so
Cam, I have talked to my lawyer & will seriously consider taking things down that road. Glenn... I appreciate the little glimpse down that other road. Ron... very good point to watch out for. I am aware of their importance in (my perception of) my future marketing, so I am angling for as much agreement from them on a solution & hoping to feel no need to default in any way.
posted
Go for the throat Doug; you got all the marbles buddy.
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Well You can look at the Bright Side they Did get your Phone #'s right.. Didn't they. I had to change Phone #'s when we started as the put some else's on my First Ad. Luckly the person with that number was real cool and didn't mind letting me have it.
posted
Even though I think that Cam treated the YPs a lil too kindly...I can also sympathizew with the ones cutting and pasting the ads! By your own admission, you waited until the last possible moment! Having always used 1/4 page ads, they had already reserved a spot for you.
I can just imagine what happened! "Look at this! That %$#%# chenegd to a 1/2 pager, now we have to do the whole layout over again!" Boss "F*** him, squeeze it into a 1/4 pager!"
Gotta admit, rather than putting it in rotated 90°, he did a fair job of preserving the 'look' of your ad!
Regardless...I still would go for their throat!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
yeah, I suspect words like "F*** him, squeeze it into a 1/4 pager!" may have occured... but not from having "reserved a spot" I never did a 1/4 page ad... & the "last minute" is within their deadline... if thats not enough time... the fault is on them to revise their deadlines... besides it was the "last minute" for getting a proof... well ahead of the "last minute" if I didn't require a proof.
I don't get it... how can anyone say they did a "fair job" besides knowing how to type & how to spell.... what did they actually do a fair job of? oh maybe the guy did know how to create a faded background... & I'll give him/her credit for being able to create radius corners & a 2 color border... but beyond that, how can anyone call it a "fair job"? IT SUCKS from any design standpoint, without even considering my desired ranking of prioritization of the copy!
I will say, from a marketing perspective it is somewhat reassuring that some people might think it is ok... but it still ain't.
posted
Doug, No their attempt was NOT a fair job for advertising a professional sign and design company. It would be the same as if you allowed a High School student design and fabricate your sign.
This is your first impression to your potential customer base. If you are not connected with 50% of those potential customers or they aren't urged to use you because of a flawed design, you will never know. You can't prove your loss, but I'm sure you can estimate it. As much as their saleperson believes the ad can "produce" for you, quadruple that as damages.
With that said, it is a fair representation of a yellow pages ad and it does at least have your name on it. I would offer them $12 a month for at least not screwing up the entire listing. I would also accept their offers of reduced cost advertising for the next couple years.
The 60' instead of 60" is ineffective for you. They also decided to "correct" your spelling of "showcards". That implies that you don't even know how to spell an item that you produce. More insult to injury.
What a$$holes, or is that a$$ holes!?
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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Carl, the number of designs a Yellow Page designer is expected to create in a day is between 50 & 100, depending on the size of the ad and the amount of color. The logic being that a 1/4 page ad should take 1/4 the time to lay out as a full page ad. Seriously.
And Doug, breach of contract sounds perfect to me. Screw them, make them pay for a couple of years after you get this year for free!
[ January 06, 2006, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Patrick Whatley ]
-------------------- Pat Whatley Montgomery, AL (334) 262-7446 office (334) 324-8465 cell Posts: 1306 | From: Wetumpka, AL USA | Registered: Mar 2001
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Riddle me this: I designed my own ad, exactly as I wanted it. The YP twit, er salesperson, wanted it on paper. I asked about giving it to them in whatever file format they need (so they can't screw it up) and you'd have thought I suddenly grew a couple spare heads from the look on her face. Why can't we just give them the file, saving them time & us frustration when they screw it up?
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
What I REALLY don't get is, if you submitted your design and it doesn't work within their space limitations, why didn't they call you to verify this and request another design from you?
I'm assuming of course they don't normally redraw the thing, but utilize what the customer provides... or am I wrong?!?
Crazy. Why redraw the ad if it's already drawn?
Edited: Yeah, what Kissy said! LOL
[ January 06, 2006, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
posted
The funny thing here is that if anyone had posted on this forum that they did this or a similar thing to a sign customer who provided them with a layout,we would have had,by this point,at least 11 posts applauding the decision to alter it anyway the mood hit them and giving the standard canned line of "dont give them what they ask for or want to pay for,give them what you think they need because we are sign professionals".....then be absolutely astonished when after the fact they go to the competition,touching off an ensuing debate on lack of customer loyalty that folks can participate in while surfing the net trying to get aluminum $2/sheet cheaper than their normal supplier. Perhaps since you didnt meet their deadline they used this same logic and gave you what you always got?.....and sorry but it differs almost none from the original except for a slight bit in size,there is absolutely no way someone could read the top version vs the published version and think it was a totally different company. Things could be much worse,they could have not included your ad,changed the art work,wrong phone number etc etc. Been self employed longer than about 90% of the people here so am i saying not to seek compensation in some way? Depends on if they've billed you for half a page or 1/4,it gonna be a my word/your word thing and whether or not you were actually late in replying if it was close to the deadline they will make it an issue ad act like they were doing all they could to help you out.......should you let it go? no,pressing for free advertising from them is warranted....personally i would look for a full page color ad next year at the 1" bold price,along with the ring option curtis mentioned... but between winding yourself up like this is going to close your doors tommorrow and people trying to call you will get a whorehouse instead and the aortic accident you gave yourself trying to tell someone else what to name their business recently,you will spend more time obsessing over what over time becomes trivial details than producing and not continue to stay in business,or if you happen to suffer a really traumatic setback business wise it will have you tossing yourself off an island cliff. Despite of what people here will say what happens to your business does not have to consume your personal life...believing you cannot disconnect the two is bullsh*t.....making the two the same is a key to a shorter life...both business and personal. There is absolutely no reason why this cannot work to your advantage. Prepare a postcard size mailer with as large a version of the ad you thought you were getting as will fit on the front and on the back say something like "since the phone company didnt print our ad like we wanted,heres what it should look like" and list contact info and everything you do on the back,and do the same similar thing with the gu with the similar name......instant ice breaker on cold calls too since everyone at some point has a dilemma with the phone company about something and you have the advantage of having them see your name alone without your competitions next to it.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Hiya Doug, I couldn't read all of what Gavin typed, but he appears to bring up some valid points. I may be wrong because I didn't read everything. But, chances are that you missed the deadline for when the pages are dummied out. This is when the decision is made on ad size and placement and how the book goes together. So, in theroy, they did you a favor by saving you any space for your advertisement. If they put your larger ad in after this point, there would be a lot of hours required to rebuild all the pages that came after signs. Also, depending on the press run, it could also add several pages to the book that they could not account for. So, what would you rather pay for, a smaller, butchered ad or a full size ad and the design time to reposition all the pages and ads that come after "S" in the book and possibly several blank pages too? With all that said, I do feel that you got screwed. Good luck and let us know how it works out.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
-------------------- a.k.a. Brian Born www.CheckersCustom.com Harrisburg, Pa Work Smart, Play Hard Posts: 3775 | From: Harrisburg, Pa. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 1998
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Donna, Gavin, Checkers & everyone... I appreciate all the feedback, this is a bothersome enough issue to warrent some consideration on my part beyond just letting it go, & so all opinions are of value to factor in while I give this issue the consideration it deserves.
It is becoming a long thread & I don't expect everyone to read it all... BUT... when not reading it results in misperceptions of the facts being discussed, I want to restate the facts... just to improve the chance that further opinions are relevant to the facts, not to the misperceptions inadvertantly put forth...
SO, it is not intended as being unappreciative to anyones attempt to offer advice that I point out:
the ad submission was NOT late! (it wasn't early, like they hope everyones will be... & like mine will be next year... but it was not after the deadline)
it was not submitted in the wrong size
the 1/4 page I got was not a "default" or a standard from me, I never bought a 1/4 page ad.
They were NOT laying up the final paging already (there was an entirely different, later due date for ads where no proof was required &
they would still be accepting ad submissions for weeks)
...also, Gavin, first I'll say I always respect your opinion, partly because I think the intense, acidic, & sarcastic style, as well as the the borderline exaggeration & inflamatory zeal with which you state your case... reminds me of myself, but it also serves to communicate very real opinions often not seen or unmentioned by other, more soft spoken replies.
Thank you for your postcard suggestion, it is exactly along the lines of my first damage control action & I just returned from a printer regarding this. (partly to have their numbers ready for further negotiations with the YPeople.. and also to get started doing it as opposed to talking about it)You have added some additional insights to this approach, as did Brian the Brush yesterday in discussing this same approach.
I do have a reply to on other comment:
quote: sorry but it differs almost none from the original except for a slight bit in size,there is absolutely no way someone could read the top version vs the published version and think it was a totally different company. Things could be much worse...
I never thought someone would confuse the ad they ran with another company... most people looking at that page are not familiar with me (or they's be in the white pages, or at my door) ...so they have no reference point, but they will get a "first impression" that IMHO is the wrong impression. Yes, without a doubt... "it could be worse"
BUT, where you say "it differs almost none", I think your area of expertise is in paint & solvent products, not design... to compare to your specialty,
if you gave me the formula for mixing base coat, pigment, hardener, & reducer to get the right coverage for x number of square feet, in a given hue (and reduced for spraying, hardened for longevity & pigmented just enough... without compromising the adhesive qualities of the base)
then when I foul up ALL the percentages... & come up with a half batch that won't cover the required area... & has too much hardener, not enough reducer... but has the right hue...
well, the untrained eye may say hell... a half gallon of the right color "differs almost none" from a full gallon of the same color.
Not everyone sees the significance & importance in proper balance & proportion of various ingredients... & that fact is in my favor with the lay person reading my ad... BUT it is still VERY different, & it's effectiveness WILL be compromised as a result!
"aortic accident" thats why I like to rant here... to purge that anger out, get some unemotional feedback & prevent any aortic accidents!
you're right though, I do obsess over trivial details... & even less trivial details, may still be obsessed over too much. Point taken!
posted
I get ****ed when solicitors call me "Ma'am" on the phone, I'm glad I don't have things like this to bother me.
I don't know... going for a discounted larger ad next year sounds just like a way for them to keep the money you've already spent on an ad you're not getting, and to also get you to commit to paying again for an ad next year. It seems to me THEY are still the winners in this situation and are only manipulating you into feeling better about it with their little discount.
What happens next year when they screw up THAT ad too? giving you a 1/4 or 1/2 page ad when the deal was 3/4 page. You know it's gonna happen. You gonna agree to a discounted rate for the following year's ad too?
Sounds like a scam to keep people advertising with them!
I'd be more inclined to either not pay for this ad at all or maybe beat them down to 1/2 price of a 1/4 page ad since it's still not what you wanted, then not give them any more business next year.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
good points Mike, but they are the most used of 3 books & my informal analysis tells me they are an important part of my marketing plan. I want to advertise there next year, as I have done for 9 years already... BUT I agree that this offer has problems.
I plan to get the numbers from them in the difference of the cost of the 3/4 paged ad offered, & the 1/4 page they would charge for. Multiple x12 their monthly rate & arrive at a monetary figure they are in essence "offering"
I know they will be able to offer "more" if they have something I want that is worth more to me then what it costs them... so if they are offering 5K in discounts... I know they would never give me 5K in money... BUT what I need to repair the damage is to spend 5K on advertising in other media right now.
So, I will counter-offer an agreement to sign contracts for advertising next year at normal rates (not "list" ..but the same rate I already negotiated for this year AND for just a half page... I never wanted a 3/4 page & that offer in itself is an attempt to upsell me forever in the future) If I agree (on a contract) to pay next year for my ad next year... they should pay this year (in dollars, not as many as the discounted ad value... but in REAL dollars) to remedy the damage done to me this year!
posted
screw em.. thats what they deserve for outsourcing anyway.. AT&T just about went out of bizz because of outsourcing. They screwed it up. No need to make it complicated. Make em pay,, huge discount this year,, FREE distinctive ring next year. YP's are just one small pillar of good marketing system. You gotta have a lot of pillars doing the work for you. Referals, mail outs, flyers, truck, signage, and lots of free logo stickers to give to every body. They stick them to the back of their cars. Lots of fridge magnets. Give these to every body too. Make me from scrap magnetic and scrap print material.
-------------------- Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate. Posts: 5274 | From: Im a nowhere man | Registered: Jul 2001
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department must have got some relic of an earlier discussion mentioning a quarter page... & without so much as a word or a question to anyone... proceeded to attempt to force a landscape orientated ad into a portrait orientated space.![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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I pasted in my approved ad design over 2 other competitors quarter page ads that should have followed my bigger ad.
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