posted
For discussion sake I was wondering how others approach the sometimes delicate issue of not getting stuck for art time in the course of a sign sale. Selling is tricky - there's only so far you can go in a negotiation till a design has to be generated, but the sale is still only 'pending' until that all-important design has been accepted.
Do you ask for a full DEPOSIT first, a token RETAINER amount to cover design time, or a flat design FEE upfront? With the goal being to take your prospective customer out of the 'shopping' phase into the 'buying' phase without scaring or alienating them, how do you even broach the subject? This used to scare the hell out of me.
I think we could all agree that someone we don't know, showing very little commitment to actually spend money (or any number of other red flags) would be a pretty poor risk to speculate on with design input. Stating a design FEE might be the best course in that situation, and if they balk, well, at least nobody got hurt...
But what about times when a new client has shown enthusiasm, stated a clear grasp of their objectives and acknowledges a realistic budget figure? Would you spend some time on a presentation before any currency changed hands? Frankly I would, and often do, especially if that lead has come by a referral. This has very seldom lead to FREE design but there have been times I misread my cues. What works for you?
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
it is a difficult one which i often ask myself, i'm still the new boy as i see it, so i go outta my way to be as accomodating as possible (i dont mean price !). 9/10 i will always come up with a design, after consultation, and include it free within the job, i see that as my only way for now,
I have however, on larger jobs, outlined a design for the customer, and added a few T&C's on the quote, namely that once the job is agreed, a 50% deposit is due, at the same time finished art will be supplied (tweeked if neccessary) to be signed off (along with these terms) as agreed,
if then the order is cancelled, time for design will be charged at the rate of $45per hour, along with any genuine costs incurred. and the balance returned,
I nkow it's not a 'charge' for design as such, but it means i'll at least cover my ass if someone comes along to undercut me during later stages of the job.
posted
It often as not depends on the customer and the task at hand,....If I haven't done business with the client before I usually cut thru the chase and ask them what they had in mind and what their budget is.Often as not they don't have a clue as to what they want and or the cost,... so I ask them if they have seen any signage that appealed to them on other businesses in the area. I try to stay vague at this point so as not to leave any money on the table so to speak.Many times they will have a budget but are apprehensive about telling me what number they had in mind and at that point I assure them that my objective is to give them the most for the money they have to spend,...I can do them a ten dollar sign or a ten thousand dollar sign the choice is theirs,...At no time do I try to discuss hourly rates with them until the subject has to be addressed.
After we come to an understanding of the task at hand,the terms of payment and production come into play. I try to offer them several levels of quality and effort,involved with the project and discuss price ranges for these efforts. At this time I discuss the design process with them and the required retainer to protect my time invested in the design. Never does the retainer come into play until some sort of deal has been struck and then and only then will I proceed until said retainer is recieved. Before I accept a retainer I try to set up any production schedules & dealines etc. and then explain any production deposits and or progress payments due upon approval of a design,along with payment terms. The whole process can be very tricky often as not but in the past I have always found it pays to be patient and listen to the customer and his or her needs and then try to accomadate them within thier budget.
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
on logo designing I offer a free consultation, do a little sketching while we talk... do a lot of picking their brains as to what they like, want & expect... show samples of other design work & try to get to a place where I can suggest a time frame that I can produce something along the lines of what was discussed.
On the occassion where the client seems clueless as to what they want, I suggest that they either go think about it & come back, or I can also politely offer my services at $75 an hour to keep guessing what they want & they can keep saying no untill I guess right... by "politely", I mean that I say this knowing full well that some people really do need this & really will pay for it (not many, but I say it that way & let them decide to kick themselves out of my shop till they get a clue... so I don't have to)
Once I can say that should be 4 hours... or that it could be 6 hours, I tell them I have no way to ensure that they will be happy in 4 hours... only that I can get a few ideas on paper in that time. They understand that by giving me 50% of that fee... I will call them back in for a second consultation before I spend all the projected time. At this point I will have a few half baked ideas, with some shape, color & font variations. Usually this second consultation will result in a minimum of revisions & preference choices & will result in a final consultation where the design may be tweaked while they wait, signed off on, paid for & provided on disc.
If they are real picky at the consultation after spending half the budgeted design time, I will offer to increase the budgeted time (& the deposit), or to scale back their expectations to fit their budget, or to cut our losses & go our seperate ways while I only did half the design, & they only paid half the fee. (That last option only happened twice)
If it is a sign design, I usually "sell" the job with sketches & if the design aspect of the sign seems involved, or the client seems picky enough to cost me extra time... that is factored into the sign price & I collect half the price of the sign before I move too far from the hand drawn sketch phase.
I will also admit drawing up many finished computer layouts for clients that I get a better feeling of loyalty from... or a bigger client that I think my risk of an hour or 2 is a more worthwhile risk if it could land me my first several thousand dollar job with a big hotel. I think I have struck out completely on landing any hotel work from free sketches though... so I will probably never do that again & in fact that is what I tell them up front, along with my suggestion that they pay me a consultation fee to help convert their vague description of what they wish they had into a complete bid request package that could then allow them to seek competitive bids on a clearly designed (& approved by the variety of people within their organization)sign proposal with all specs spelled out so they aren't asking 3 different sign shops to make up 3 different ways to bid on meeting their needs. So far this isn't working either, so I just don't care much about the hotels at this point.
posted
Interesting post Joe. I show them the portfolio and samples until I can see the "Light go on" in there head. They start saying yes! Yes I like that. Or yes . . ."you know what I want". Then I ask if they would like me to make some drawings? Of course they say "YES". Then I reach for my receipt book while explaining to them that the work starts with the drawing. I also tell them that that is the most important part - the design. I tell them that I take a $150 deposit to start. This will usually cover the time it takes. If not, I simply add to to the cost of the project. If I'm working on a new logo for them, I tell them that the fee is paid up front. Then he see the drawings. I seem to do at least a dozen jobs like this every year that they never come back to even see the drawings! I don't have a pile of drawings that have never been paid for like I use to do. No deposit No drawings. The first thing my customers see in the shop is a "Deposits Required" sign. Everone would like to have free drawings. . . .So would I. This method I use seems to work for me. Sometimes I trust people too much and get burned now and then. But not like I did before The letterheads slapped me around at bit. I let some walk. . . .I've learned to just say no. John
-------------------- John Arnott El Cajon CA 619 596-9989 signgraphics1@aol.com http://www.signgraphics1.com Posts: 1443 | From: El Cajon CA usa | Registered: Dec 1998
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quote:Originally posted by Doug Allan: pay me a ]i]consultation[/i] fee to help convert their vague description ~ into a complete bid request package that could then allow them to seek competitive bids
That's a good one that's come in handy many times Doug. Even without the 'competitive bids' part, the concept of partnering with a prospective client to help solve their needs is a great way to spin it - a comfortable, natural way to ease them into accepting the design part isn't free.
Almost twenty years ago I did a lot of work for a designer who just amazed me with his ability to convince people to pay him to 'come up' with ideas. He'd bring in simple hand drawn sketches that he got paid to produce, have me flesh it out, spec it and quote it, then go back and sell it with a healthy markup. He brought me some of my most creative and high-paying work of my young career and he never understood why <with all my knowledge> I had trouble asking for design fees myself. Looking back now, neither can I, but I sure did then. And I suspect plenty of young people in this business now STILL grapple with it. So I appreciate all input to this thread.
Anyway, he helped me a lot when he explained that he didn't know any more about signs than his clients did - he was only a facilitator, able to listen and interpret things in sketch form, then use me to pull it all together. With my vastly more intimate reference-base I was much more qualified than he to do what he did. It all boiled down to me being afdraid to ask for money. I'd probably still be afraid but at 51 I feel I've run out of time to be timid about it.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I basically ask questions to detrermine if they are price shopping or ready to buy a sign, When i determine they are price shopping , I give them a vague figure based on their description and ask them for a financial commitment, LIKE A DEPOSIT!! and if they don't want to do that I smile at them and tell them to come back or call when theyre ready to rock n roll.
posted
I try to educate on the difference between a layout and a logo, and generally try to sell the latter. Once they know it is a seperate service, and a logical first step, it usually isn't a problem to secure the design fee in full up front, with the guarantee that they are gonna end up with something they can be happy with.
[ September 19, 2005, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
quote:Originally posted by Barry Branscum: I try to educate on the difference between a layout and a logo, and generally try to sell the latter. Once they know it is a seperate service, and a logical first step, it usually isn't a problem to secure the design fee in full up front, with the guarantee that they are gonna end up with something they can be happy with.
Wholeheartedly agree Barry, a great tactic for those who don't already have an existing business identity established. Leads right into a separate fee, upselling them even before there's a sign to quote.
SONGPAINTER Original Sign Music by Sign People NOW AVAILABLE on CD and the proceeds go to Letterville's favorite charity! Click Here for Sound Clips! Posts: 1974 | From: Orleans, MA, Cape Cod, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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