posted
I was just curious what other peoples take would be on this. I read all the time people say things like "I made a pounce pattern then hand lettered the banner(sign, truck ect.)". To me that would be hand painting not hand lettering. Hand lettering to me is laying out a skeletal rough then produce the finished letter with the brush (single stroke or built up). It is much different than following a pounced line to produce the letter. I have mentioned this to others and some still think painting a sign with a pounce pattern (computerized/or by hand) is still considered hand lettering. If that was the case then when my 5 year colors in her coloring book; is she coloring or is she hand lettering. The one thing that i do have to agree on is that painting a pounced letter requires the necessary brush skill that one would use to hand letter.
Any input on this?
-Chuck
-------------------- Charles Borges de Oliveira Borges Lettering & Design Snohomish WA Posts: 352 | From: Snohomish WA | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I think it is an interesting question,however to me it is almost the same thing. When people say hand lettered it is just a simplification of the term.Some people can paint from a pattern and some can freehand as well,they are both handpainted but there is a difference.When people ask me if I paint my stripes freehand I say the left hand is free-- it holds the paint,but I charge damn good for my right hand.
posted
I think that regardless of whether it is done with a pattern or free-hand, it requires a skill, a knack for hand-eye coordination, a sense of balance and rhythm. I can do both on a good day. I love the feel of free-handing, but sometimes I end up with a "PLAN AHEAd". I usually never follow my pounce patterns 100%. There are some things that require just the right embellishment, that a computer can't "see". I have seen truck lettering jobs that have been cut with a mask and sprayed, and I do not think this is a good effect. There are a few Heads out there who are simply a joy to behold while they are in action. Some people just have a natural ability to wing it and land on both feet. Others are not confident to try it without training wheels. It all boils down to the fact that nothing is truly original. I try my best to be unique, but other times I am like the lemming dropping off the cliff. If you can produce something that you enjoy doing, and manage to feed your kids at the same time, that's good enough for me. Good observation Chuck. Love....Jill
Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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Any self-respecting signwriter uses both "free-hand" and "pounce patterns".
It really depends on the job.For example to letter a tent four sides the same we use a pounce. A window "splash" is "free-hand" all the way.
Pounce patterns gives you exact copies of a layout, especially with logos and odd style fonts. It is not just "coloring in". Freehand is your ability to reproduce lettering, (block, bash or script)between two chalk lines. It's your personal hand writing styles. Some are better at it than others.
posted
One company I knew, was putting a mask on trucks and then 1Shotting with a brush, and called it "hand-lettered". THAT'S pushing it, if you ask me.
I feel that anyone who has the abilities and control necessary to use a brush to form letters and characters, is "hand-lettering". It's semantics, to be sure, but the term is interchangeable with hand-painted. I believe that "hand-painted" is primarily a bulletin board term for Illustrating by hand instead of photo-reproduction processes. Hand painted instead of Edge-printed, for example.
Even if your 5yr old is keeping within the lines, consistently, he/she is acquiring skills beyond someone of lesser talents. Give them a brush!
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Hand painting versus hand lettering is IMHO just semantic hair splitting.
Done a lot of paint slinging over the last forty plus years---a lot with pounce patterns, and a lot with direct layout on the panel or truck or boat.
Patterns are fine for work that will be repeated---provided you can find the pattern. Direct layouts are fine for one-offs. Mask and paint is good for multiples of the same thing, and production time doesn't allow for the other two methods.
Yesterday and today were the fun days for my week---direct layout for freehand lettering on a truck, complete with drop shadows, outlines and a bit of pinstriping for good measure. Lots of colors on a black truck.
Only concession to speeding up the process was using fine-line tape for the tops and bottoms of lines of copy--stabilo layout was the chicken scratch variety.
Main reason for the tape, aside from neat corners, is the fact that the strokes can be much heavier on the paint, and no need to reduce to finish off the strokes at the bottom. Faster, and better coverage.
One of my all-time favorite tricks was to put a small nail into the toe end of my shoe sole, leave a bit showing, and use that as a radius center for swinging an arc on a truck door. Drop a vertical line at door center, place foot/nail so that swing-string covers that line, mark on the line for the top and bottom of copy line, draw string up tight and wrap around stabilo at mark points, and draw the arcs. Then rough in the copy, and have at it. Fun.
FWIW.
bill preston
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Id say if you are hung up on terminology... yer not the best hand letterer in your town and your intentions are mis directed fergit the BS make nice letters whats so hard about that?
posted
I'm thinking you're of the opinion that someone that uses a pounce pattern is not as skilled as someone that lays it out and then letters.
At least thats what I read between the lines...
After nearly 40 years of doing both I can tell you there is no difference and the fact your daughter can stay within the lines is absolute proof that anyone can do it...now no offense intended but please accept the fact that she's not ready to do wall work.
Anyone with the desire (emphasis on "desire")can become an accomplished "signwriter)some people have better motor skills and superior hand /eye coordination and will obviously be better at it than others... then there are those that have a raw talent looking for somewhere to to unload its self...they are (pardon the term) freaks of nature and were put on earth to be envied no matter how they letter.
In my never to be humble opinion there is no reason for even questioning the difference...unless of course you just set out trying to insult some here.
If thats the case (I hope it's not) your queery is lame at best and unworthy of any explanation.
If however it was an honest inquirey...I agree you're splitting an already split hair!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
posted
Chuck, I appreciate the astute observation. I learned in a shop where the only time a pattern was used was when there were repetes, and then often it would be just the single line letter with the top and bottom line. Sometimes we'd break a piece of charcoal to the width of the thick stroke and hold it flat against the paper and freehand our letters and then perforate around the rough letter layout. We learned that the layout was to let you know more where the letters don't go than where they do. With a pattern, much of the spontaneity is lost. I felt that way using tape on top and bottom lines too.
Ah, but I may as well try and catch the wind. Donovan
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
In my opinion, following a pounce pattern or hand lettering over stabilo or charcoal lines is still hand lettering.
As Rick said, a lot of our patterns were just stick form letters that would be painted by hand. That would speed up the layouts of many of our multiple truck jobs. Sometimes we would make a stick letter layout pattern even if we were only doing two doors just so both sides were the same.
Filling in a computer cut mask doesn't qualify as hand lettering. My 11 year old has done that, with good coverage I may add.
To me , nothing looks better than a nice handpainted script or hand painted plain egyptian letters with a drop shadow. When I do see that type of job now it sticks out more than the multicolor airbrush or fade job.
-------------------- Lou Pascuzzi www.economysigns.com Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS" Posts: 341 | From: Danbury, Ct | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I see the distinction you're making, but for me it's seldom that cut and dried. To me, one of the hardest things to do is something like Helvetica medium, single stroke. But that's been awhile. What's more likely is something in-between, like a Clarendon. There, you have a single stroke on the thin strokes, but one and a half or two everywhere else, plus all the serif work, so in that way it's like following a pattern.
All just academic for me now, as I'm pushing really hard to get even my most customized lettering ideas vectorized.
-------------------- James Donahue Donahue Sign Arts 1851 E. Union Valley Rd. Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch, Benjamin Franklin Posts: 2057 | From: 1033 W. Union Valley Rd. | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
If you're doing all the layout and painting it through a pounce pattern, there's no crime in "getting it right". When I see a tightrope walker work without a net, I'm impressed but still think it's a stupid risk. You've done the work to design the sign, there's no shame in being efficient creating it. Hand painted or hand lettered, I think we're the only ones who know the difference. Just do it!
-------------------- Sid Besserman Sid Besserman Pinstriping & Graphics Old Westbury,NY Striper7@optonline.net Posts: 46 | From: Long Island | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
It's an old debate. The old timers would look at my laborious paper patterns and tape for the top and bottom edges of the stokes and scoff. They felt true artist was the one who needed nothing but a charcoal stick or stabilo and his brushes. I eventually did get good enough to work that way, but still liked pounce patterns for those tight layouts.
posted
There always is the need for the tight layouts requiring patterns. I think this thread was looking at the more casual needs that faced the average sign shop thirty years ago and the skills that have been disappearing.
We learned how to adjust letter lengths and spacing to artistically create negative spaces that don't occur when you type them in and every "A" looks alike. We learned to change a stroke to give some flair to the text and add swashes that filled in awkward spaces and to control the flow of the eye.
In the years of enjoying the fun of computers and staying competitive, I've slipped way far back from what I was taught, and would feel like apologizing to those that I learned from if they could come back to check in on their investment in me. Sad part is, there's no going back.
-------------------- The SignShop Mendocino, California
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6714 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Tight patterns to chicken scratches...it's all hand lettering. Not all signpainters work "off the brush" and produce single stroke lettering from a scratch and go layout. NO SIGNPAINTER works stricktly "off the brush" for evrything. I was always more production orientated , plus I'm lazy, so I worked "off the brush" whenever I could. Working with a chicken scratch layout requires a good knowledge of the letter style you are working with, however. While I can do a decent Roman with a scratch layout, the letter style calls for precise, therefore I'll render a tight layout. Rendering a new or seldom used letterstyle requires a full layout. On the flip side, some letter styles like Helvetica are easier to form "off the brush" at least for me. I can render five or more S's with a brush in the time it takes me to pencil a full layout of one S. ( please note, I'm talking about "Signpainters Helvetica Bastardised" here and not a true Helvetica with all it's subtle nuances ) The same holds true for a lot of letterstyles that got used a lot like gothic/egyptian, casuals and scripts. I never got very good at quick thick and thins and usually did a full layout on them. A lot of guys work off the brush up to about a six inch letter and then switch over to a full layout. I'll work up to a tweleve or fourteen inch "off the brush" , I've seen timi do likewise.
-------------------- George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@bigriver.net
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
posted
I was ready to let go of this thread until the decrying of the use of tape/top/bottom appeared.
Being self taught I came across that trick in EC Matthews book a long time ago. Don't use it all the time, but no hesitation when I feel it is called for.
IMLTHO tape is just another tool, no different than a brush, snap line or whatever, and when needed just makes life a bit easier, and speeds things up a bit. If that makes me less of a "purist" letterer, then so be it. I don't feel it makes me any less of a tecnician or mechanic which is all I ever claimed to be. Not the world's greatest sign painter and the first to admit it.
Having said that, I've also seen an awful lot of lettering done the purist way that was just plain awful, with flicks and squirrel tails at the end of strokes, and the cross strokes nowhere near straight or square.
One other thing----the customer is the last person in the world who gives a damn about how his sign, truck, boat or whatever was done. All he or she is interested in is the end result. Given that, not using the tools at hand, because it isn't "pure", is nothing more than "ego-stroking." There is another term for that that comes to mind, but I'm sure the easily offended would rather not hear it.
FWIW, and fuel to the fire. Have at it.
bill preston
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Rick you can go back! I have been taking a few minutes when a job comes in and asking myself which way is going to be the best way to do this job and have fun doing it.Many times those of us who paint can produce a job faster with a brush than to load 4 colors of vynal into a plotter.On large banner jobs who wants to cut 36-40 inch letters out of vynal? I am so tired of the generic look of signs these days.when I see a well done hand painted I still get excited. I have way more fun when I hand paint. Lets all get after it!
posted
A lot of folks here know that I can not handletter..... I call myself an "artisan" or "craftsman" never a sign PAINTER. I have been known to actually make a vinyl mask and "handpaint" within the specified area when the customer required a HAND painted sign vs vinyl!!! (I have even used Rustoleum spray paint). With me calling myself a signpainter or signwriter, I honestly feel in my heart that would put me in a category of the true artists, of which I'm NOT.
Maybe I should just stick to making omelettes !!!!!
[ May 01, 2005, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: John Smith ]
-------------------- John Smith Kings Bay Signs (Retired) Kissimmee, Florida Posts: 816 | From: Central Florida - The Sunshine State | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote: I honestly feel in my heart that would put me in a category of the true artists, of which I'm NOT
John, I respectfully disagree with your self-deprecating statement.
Having checked out your website, I am certain that, in your thirty-plus years in the business, you have carved many a beautiful sign from a direct "scratch" layout.
As with painting, dimensional work is not merely a learned skill, but requires a degree of artistic ability.
-------------------- Steve Purcell Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking Cape Cod, MA
************************** Intelligent Design Is No Accident Posts: 900 | From: Cape Cod, MA | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
I was going to stay out of this post because I feel it would tend to segregate artisans and create impractical goals for beginners, but then George told on me. After years and years of practice making patterns I developed enough skill to simply snap two guide lines and mark center,then start lettering a line of copy. It isn't necessarily a means to a proper end but it will save considerable time in a pinch. It does not always make for the best of layouts and often as not it will get you in trouble. It does however work for simple quick one off jobs that quality is not so much an issue as speed of production. I've seen many folks use the charcoal single stroke layouts and the majority ( I leave room here for the rare exception) leave alot to be desired as far as consistant quality. Sure they'll hit the mark 3 times out of four but is it worth the effort when you miss that mark 25% of the time? Its an easy way to knock out a job real fast or create a tremendous headache very fast. Every sign painting and lettering manual I have ever read suggests using a formal layout of some sort. They do not make and sell preforating tools for no good reason. As anyone who has tried this technique can attest it can lead to catastrophe enough to avoid it unless the task at hand permits it.
That said,...there is nothing wrong with the attempt to learn to letter with a brush as one would with a pen and ink in a formal and proper hand. One has to study hand lettering and practice it for many years to be able to even attempt to properly hand letter in the fashion you describe.
To use an example if I may,..John Stevens recently dropped by to use my electro-pounce to make a pattern for a job he was getting ready to do, and for those of you who don't know who he is go here http://www.johnstevensdesign.com/
here's a question for you to think about on this subject,...what about the person who uses a pencil and ruler to draw his pattern with letter forms off the top of his head and then "fills in between the lines" to create a beautiful and quality end product, are they any less a skilled craftsman?
-------------------- fly low...timi/NC is, Tim Barrow Barrow Art Signs Winston-Salem,NC Posts: 2224 | From: Winston-Salem,NC,USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
I like Mr. Preston's idea!!)If i may call you Mr., Bill!)
Nail in the Shoe, the HUMAN COMPASS, it don't get any more low tech than that!!! I'm gonna try that stunt real soon!!
I sure hope to see you at Mazeppa, Bill. I think i've got a lot to learn !!
btw, it's only brush manipulation, folks!! LOL
John
-------------------- John Lennig / Big Top Sign Arts 5668 Ewart Street, Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada bigtopya@hotmail.com 604.451.0006 Posts: 2184 | From: Burnaby, British Columbia,Canada | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
I know some musicians who can ONLY play the song if they have the sheet music . . . they can also figure out musical notes and write them . . .
I know some musicians who play by ear and can figure out the chords or even lead notes to anything, even if they hear it one time, but they can't read or write music . . .and they still can write songs...
Which of these are the 'better' or 'real' musicians???
On Patterns: I used to make patterns for double-sided signs all the time . . .now I seldom make patterns. I make rough scale drawings and project directly on the panel . . . .scale drawings also fit better in the customers folder in the file cabinet . . .
Said that to say: Why would'nt I (or anyone) be a sign painter-artist-craftsman, because I am capable of utilizing AND maximizing the the capabilities of pounce wheels, projectors, tape, and other tools?
Is a carpenter a better wood-worker if he uses no power tools and ONLY hand-tools?? Yet even an all-hand, quality furniture builder uses something to make measurements with.
And if they both put out quality furniture, they are both craftsman, but consider that the wood worker who is capable of doing BOTH types of work only has a larger door of options to pull from depending on the look he wants to achieve.
Even a sign-painter who pulls a casual is going to lay or use some kind of line if they want centered work and uniformity...um, perfection. But sometimes a much cleaner 'printed' look is in order . . .therefore one must reach into their bag of tools and utilize other methods that will acheive the exact desired 'look' . . . .
Ultimately the key word is 'quality' (and all that goes into that (see Jill's reply)
And I am also of the opinion that lay-out lines, chalk lines, all drips and/or spatters should be removed upon completion, and hardware should be painted, and the dirt raked neatly, and concrete dust removed from around the sign posts after installation... Talk about picky perfectionistic artists . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
But can she hand letter a corrugated metal wall?
-------------------- Ricky Jackson Signs Now 614 Russell Parkway Warner Robins, GA (478) 923-7722 signpimp50@hotmail.com
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Sir Issac Newton Posts: 3528 | From: Warner Robins, GA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
This thread can go on and on until it hits 400 replies and the only thing it will amount to is which side of the argument can convince itself its more full of sh*t in the end. All too often around here such importance is placed on some self percieved skill you would think the cure for cancer hung in the balance of it. Signs are either painted or vinyl,or at times a combination of both and both of those approaches take some appreciable level of skill......bottom line is it either looks good or it doesn't.......impressing other signmakers with your 'skills' whatever they are means nothing if you cant impress the customer enuff to get paid......everybody's good when they work alone. I think people forget that the pattern still has to be created in some manner. Next the argument will be on using vs not using rulers because the "truly talented" will be able,so they claim, to estimate centimeters by eye and not use the evil tape measure as a crutch.
-------------------- Gavin Chachere Plotter in the garage,New Orleans La.
"Sgts Shugart and Gordon again request permission to rope down to crash site two" Posts: 1223 | From: new orleans.la. | Registered: Mar 2000
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Ricky, 'pends on which derecktion I'm lookin' at it frum . . . . . .(lol) I TRY to hammer 'em flat out whenever possible . . .(or paint it on a flatter peice of metal and nail it up'air...HEY!) but oh Lord, that'd be usin' ANUTHER tools & ideas . . .iz'at cheatin'?? . . .
~~~~~~Yor cheatin' heart~~~~~~~~~~ . . . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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I must clarify that this post did not mean to bash using a pounce pattern. I use pounce patterns just as I would use the other tools in our shop. The post was asking if you fill in a letter that was pounced are you actually hand lettering it or are you hand painting it. Sorry if this ruffled some feathers.
have a great day!
-Chuck
-------------------- Charles Borges de Oliveira Borges Lettering & Design Snohomish WA Posts: 352 | From: Snohomish WA | Registered: Mar 2003
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