posted
Any of you ever get that call that, propelled your business to higher status??
My last employer (2 years ago) just called me. They do all the translucent signage for all the bank ATM's in Canada - CIBC, Royal Bank, B of M, TD and Credit Unions. Since I left, the sign "department" slowly deteriorated (from what I hear). I am not saying ti was I that kept itr together but, out of 14 sstaffed in the sign department, 13 were not sign people..they were employees from the welding, fiberglass, paint, mill dept, etc. that were tired of their jobs. In the last 2 years I am managing greatly and doing some bread and butter signs and some fun stuff. I am the sole proprietor and have 20+ customers revolving around me yet, am still home based and am trying to get into a bay. No matter how early I get up tp get ahead, I still can't get to that bay space & know that the answer may be "employees". Anyway, got a call saying that they NOW sub MOST of their signage out and I am the local guy. They asked me to come in for a talk to discuss contract, materials (mine or theirs) obtaining a light table (haven't done backlit since i left there). Since they are subbing most out, they probably could part with one of their (4) 4' x 8' light tables. My question....anyone ever get the call?? I could go from 10-70 signs a month (from big ones to coroplast) to 1000 per month. They have impossible deadlines and impossible quality control. Should I ask for a contract? Projected monthly quantity?? Will I go crazy with the big business politics? - afterall, it was the reason why I left 2 years ago...
WILL I EXPERIENCE GROWING PAINS??? What are some success/ horror stories with some of you when you made the decision to change the way your business $$$$ operates??????? What kind of questions should I NOT FORGET to ask them in our meeting?
posted
If they have impossible deadlines, contracts won't help the situation any, there's always going to be stress behind it!
On top of that, you will absolutely need employees to handle the workload. This means you need to train everyone. Once everyone is trained you'll then find out they're not as enthusiastic about your work and quality control as you are.
Then there's the mountain of paperwork that comes with having employees. You can handle it yourself which means you won't be able to take care of design and production any more, or you hire yet someone else to take care of it for you and hope they know what they're doing.
It might be *too* big of a jump, might not. I've seen a lot of companies that appear to be doing great with exponential growth, then one day *POOF* they've disappeared because they were burried under mounds of debt and mounds of work they could not handle.
Slow and steady wins the race.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Hi Corey, Please, please , please, 'don't put all your eggs in one basket ', many years ago I was offered lots of work from one company and after 12 months they tried to dictate my time and pricing ! what a mistake ..... make sure YOU stay in command !! Brian www.brian-the-brush.com
-------------------- Brian the Brush brian the brush uk Yorkshire, UK www.brianthebrushuk.com Posts: 123 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Growing pains? Ya damn betcha! Going from 3 or 4 signs a day to 50 per day is one hellofa jump! That means finishing a sign every 10 minutes!
Are these signs painted, digial prints or vinyl? A shop, equipment and traing employees will take time, and their QC and schedules sounds like a real problem!
You will be much better off taking just what you can handle, instead of trying to grab it all! Then slowly build up the volume.
Remember: a phone call can bring it all to you...BUT...a phone call can take it all away!
Just my 2 cents worth!
-------------------- Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
si.allen on Skype
siallen@dslextreme.com
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!
Brushasaurus on Chat Posts: 8831 | From: La Mirada, CA, USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Yeh, it is all Lexan,clear and White with ALL 3-m vinyl and alot of RT!! Worked there for 3 years. Out of the 12 years I hav e been in the trade, those 3 years were the only years with a BIG CORPORATION. the rest (like mine) is Mom and Pop...the way I THINK I like it...but.........
Make sure you find out if your 'last employer' has a contract with the company they are supplying this product to.
For many years, we supplied signs for numerous banks, through a facility maintenance company. Every two years, their contract was up for bid! Finally, when someone else won the bid, that 'bread & butter' was gone at the drop of a hat...
Careful of the goose with the golden egg...
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Any of you ever get that call that, propelled your business to higher status??
I can't recall now exactly how I met her . . .or how she knew about me . . .but the administrator for Cahaba Mental Health, Pat, called about getting a 'sand-blasted' sign. I had never done one or even seen one close up. The one they had was done for. I started reading books and making calls. I figured up a prices . . .got the job and started collecting materials. Hired a wood-worker freind to glue and plane those boards . . .
Long story short, I have done over a dozen sand blasted signs for Cahaba Mental Health as well as becoming good freinds with Pat and her husband Mark, and doind a few more sand-blasted signs for their suburb community on the river...
Had she choked on the price, and/or not been willing to give me the chance with my limited capabilities, and I might never have learned sand-blasting. They have been loyal customers, and many of these signs are up to 40 miles away at branch centers. This work also caused me to sell some sand-blasted signs for other suburban developments due to Pat & Mark's word of mouth and high remarks.
Today, many of these signs are right at 13 years old and still in excellent condition. They have only had to be washed, and that first one received a new coat of paint about 3 years ago.
I have had less call for them in the last 3 years or so . . .I'm stunned at how people seem to choke on the price when they last so very long. . .
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
hers the way to view this.... #1. why dont they do it, instead of subing it out? #2. is their enough "profit" in this to make all the "expense" worth while? #3.how will it affect your time? #4. will it be worth all the added work? #5. and what is the end result....if you do this? #6. do you really want to take on something...they dont even want?
-------------------- joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-637-1519 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND Posts: 11582 | From: pensacola, fl. usa | Registered: Nov 1998
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hers the way to view this.... #1. why dont they do it, instead of subing it out? Because they can't find people with "translucent application" no-how. They have subbed out 100's to other companies only to have them back a day late and 3/4 of them with bubles, dust flecks, velcro underneath the vinyl (subsurface application)
#2. is their enough "profit" in this to make all the "expense" worth while?
They do every sign 3 times and throw away $1000's each week in vinyl. If I came up with my price and tripled it, I would still be lower.
#3.how will it affect your time?
I will have no time to do the fun "1 of's) jobs and be a scatterbrain at the same time.
#4. will it be worth all the added work?
This one answeres it for me....NO.
#5. and what is the end result....if you do this?
Get into my bay (because of them) and into the public eye "quicker". Get out of my house and give the house back to my kids and wife (I slowly have overtaken 45% of the home.) Added stress, employees (4-5), more liability, pressure.
#6. do you really want to take on something...they dont even want?
What does this mean Old Paint?? They?
I feel pushed. I really don't think I waant this. Inevitably, I will eventually be in a bay doing the signs that I want to do and not the signs that MADE ME QUIT 2 years ago. I would much rather do 1 of's signs and not 4000 of the signs across the Country. My wife is GUNG HO and even showing her this thread, she'll be GUNG HO. It is more about $$ and not enjoying yourself at a confortable pace & doing what you like doing....I wouldn't be.
posted
Sounds like they have a lot of headaches getting good people. Mistakes are fixed at their cost and they have to heat and pay for a lot of space and deal with all the regulations and liabilities associated with that space and those people. Utilities are going through the roof. If they can get the job done at a fixed cost with little or no risk and just mark it up...why wouldn't they? You can bet they'll be the ones wanting the contract. They have to make sure they have leverage over you, cause their biggest risk is you not meeting deadlines and quality standards. Just my 2 cents. And remember "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." Our economy in Alberta is good and money is cheap, but there appear to be more bankrupcies than ever. A longtime large sign manufacturer in Edmonton is just re-opened after 2 months in receivership/bankrupcy. They had about 30 staff and looked like a real strong company. Eyes wide open and spend some money on a lawyer before signing any contracts. Okay that was more than 2 cents. Good Luck.
posted
"They have subbed out 100's to other companies only to have them back a day late and 3/4 of them with bubles, dust flecks, velcro underneath the vinyl (subsurface application)" There isn't one other sign shop/person capable of applying vinyl in your area? Or is it that the company has unreasonable expectations?
"In the last 2 years I am managing greatly and doing some bread and butter signs and some fun stuff. I am the sole proprietor and have 20+ customers revolving around me yet, am still home based and am trying to get into a bay" You sound satisfied and successful, do you want to be a signmaker or a manager?
quote: My question....anyone ever get the call?? I could go from 10-70 signs a month (from big ones to coroplast) to 1000 per month. They have impossible deadlines and impossible quality control. Should I ask for a contract? Projected monthly quantity?? Will I go crazy with the big business politics?
Corey, I tried to re-read your post again and again . . .but I'm still left with the question: WHAT kind of signs are they needing at the qty. of 1000 a month?? And why would they want a one-man shop working out of their home to attempt it??
Try to look at the bigger picture and not over think the immediate issues.
I realize this is a rock and a hard place. On one hand, it's the opportunity to grow well financially ....but on the other hand, are you going to sell your soul, your dream for it?
Here's something to consider . . nothing is forever. Suppose you do the work for a determined number of months . . .even up to 36 months . . .by renting a space just the right size and keeping expenses as low as possible. Make the money and SAVE as much as possible. When your done, you'll not only have developed some good self-employemnt skills but you may save enough money to purchase out-right or build your own shop.
There's no hard and fast rule that says you can't USE this opportunity to your benefit rather than fearing, or allowing it to USE you.
Growth is scary I know. It's the unknown area of steppin' out there and possibley gettin' into deep debt, and workin' like a mule for an ear of corn. But it does'nt have to be that way with a little logical planning and commitment to a plan.
May I mention that all that work I described to you above . . .and all the work I did for the first ten years in business I did from a 10ft x16ft portable building? Three years into that, I added a 16'x32' open car port 14 ft tall beside it. I did it all in the yard of the house I was renting. Not too bad for a little white girl raisin' a kid alone with no help. Just think Corey, I did'nt have a spouse encouraging me, or helpin' with the kid.
Now, 15 years later I have a much larger shop and I tore down that big ol' 'car-port', brought it with me and made a huge porch on the front of this shop.
If a dumb high school drop-out like me can have a dream . . .have a vision and follow a plan . . .so can a smart young man with the encouragement of his family.
It's plain that your vision is to be a creative custom sign shop. To do other things along the way is not sellin' out your dream . . .think of it as a vehicle to acheive it. If not this particular opportunity, then look for others.
-------------------- Signs Sweet Home Alabama
oneshot on chat
"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog" Posts: 5758 | From: "Sweet Home" Alabama | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
all I can second is to make sure that they don't become your only customer, if they find someone cheaper or loose the account you are back at square one, we went through it with a national retail company and it was great for 7yrs and we took any other business that came in but never really sought out other customers when we lost the account (because they realized how much they were spending on signage a year they started their own sign dept)
take the work make sure you are making a good fair margin on it but keep growing your client base as well
-------------------- Dan Streicher Slidell, LA Posts: 445 | From: Slidell, LA | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
SHEILA: WHAT kind of signs are they needing at the qty. of 1000 a month?? And why would they want a one-man shop working out of their home to attempt it?? Banks are constantly changing their image/logo thus, signage. It seems like the perfect system...Every 4 years each bank changes it's look across the country. You have CIBC, RBC, Bof M, TD, ATB. They all have 4 Exterior and 4 ATM signs each.....across the country, how many banks is that? 10's of thousands I am guessing. Even more signs... I llike what you said in the jist of not nessarily making it long term. Long enough to check it out and see if I can cope with it. My shop was going to be more "CUSTOM" and not like a factory and Iam not sure that I want both at the same time.
Bill? I am not sure if I want to be a Sign guy anymore or a manager. I just lately started calling myself a "saleman" more than I sign guy. The truth is, what is keeping me from being the manager is not letting go. No one can do MY SIGNS like me, yet. Worse, yes these signs suck. Subsurface graphics as intricate as the drop shadow on a 2 x 3 Mastercard..ALL COMPUTER CUT, not printed. Don't ask. I was use to it (it was like brain surgery) add that once the signs are done they require a velcro border around them and that velcro becomes all over a persone when in contact with the stuff. You don't really know (even after blowing your clothes off with an air hose) if you got it all until you take the protective front liner off the sign to see dozens of little "noticable" flecks of velcro. I don't want to do this.
posted
Corey, I've read through this thread and seen your comments, the questions and concerns of others and decided I'd wait til you thought it out more.
Yes, it would be a nice chunk of change and help you get set-up but there's also that assembly-line feeling. I guess it all boils down to.....
what does your gut feeling tell you?
If your gut is telling you to walk away from this, which it sounds like by your last post, then WALK AWAY! You may wonder if you did the right thing, but if you take the time to shut up all those voices that aren't your gut and you listen to only what your gut is saying, you will have done the right thing.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Your "overall" comments sound as if this is something you are totally unsure of. (just an observation)
You can weigh out all the pros and cons all you want to... the big question is the one no one has mentioned here...Are you financially sound enough to take on this scale of business...If you're not ...or if you don't have the capabilities of obtaining the funds to back such a venture...I highly recommend you pass.
On the other hand if your business skills are up for it and you have a clear view of the future and a way to finance it..then "go for it"...but make sure you have your butt covered in every direction you can think of...including contracts for work ordered and clear cut collection policies.
All of this and a strong mental commitment is what it will take to make this work...are you ready?
Incidently Brian is right when he says not to put all you eggs in one basket...if you decide to do this stay diversified enough to see to it there is other moneys coming in on a constant basis.
Good Luck!
-------------------- "Werks fer me...it'll werk fer you"
2: Don't go for it at the expense of losing other customers.
A few years back one of my customers offered me the opportunity to bid on a large contract. I got the job. Even with having to hire some sub-contractors it darn near killed me to complete the project within the deadline.
BUT...it allowed me to pay off our mortgage and all our other debts, with a few bucks left in the bank.
I was fortunate that, with long hours, I could also keep all my other customers happy too.
Would I do it again? YOU BET!!!!!! It turned my business into a very profitable entity at the time and at this point in my life it would enable me to turn business into retirement!!!!!
-------------------- Dave Grundy retired in Chelem,Yucatan,Mexico/Hensall,Ontario,Canada 1-519-262-3651 Canada 011-52-1-999-102-2923 Mexico cell 1-226-785-8957 Canada/Mexico home
posted
Make them a counter offer that goes like this. Twelve month contract for $5000 a month (in advance please) and I will make you 100 signs per month starting two months from now. Keep the number low enough that you can do it with one employee (after three months the employee should be able to do it by himself). At the end of 12 months we renogiate the contract. Might take on more per month, might say get lost.
As soon as the ink is dry on the contract find the employee and suitable space for you to make these signs plus the work you do for other clients. Make it a one year lease with an option to renew. Spend those two months in start up mode. Move, get the equipment and inventory ready, train the employee how to get rid of the velcro dust, cut vinyl and lay subsurface. During the first few months of the contract make sure you meet the commitment to the elephant you have decided to sleep with. Sooner or later the employee will be able to crank out the signs all by himself and you can collect the profit every month while making the signs you feel good about for others. In the 9th month of the contract start thinking about what you want to do about renewal. Take on more signs per month, fold up the tent or sell that business to the employee.
Let the elephant worry about how they are going to get the other 900 signs made. They should have two or more sources anyway. You might get hit by a truck and they would be in a real bind if you were making all of them.
I sense that you are in the drivers seat here. They know you can make these signs and the other places they have tried can't meet their standards or demands. Do not bite for a bigger project than you will be comfortable fulfilling or they will be talking about you the same way they are talking about the other subs they have browbeat.
For the non Canadians that are following this we have a differnt banking culture in Canada than you do. Each major bank has 2000 to 5000 brick and morter branches. Almost all of them have one bank machine and most have several. Also the banks place their machines in gas stations, malls, grocery stores, etc. Bank machine signs are big business as is other on premise signage. I can tell stories of other sign companies that have been decimated by taking on a bank contract at image makeover time.
Good luck Cory you have a tough decision to make.
-------------------- Chuck Churchill, It's A Good Sign Inc. 3245 Harvester Rd, U-12 Burlington, Ont. Phone: 905-681-8775 Fax: 905-681-8945 Posts: 633 | From: Burlington, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Sounds like a no lose deal Corey, If you take it on and it doesn't work out where are you... right where you are now.
On the plus side, you know the game already, you know what has to happen to make it work right, and as an independant contractor you either take it on at your terms or you don't.
If you land this one, look to owning a building, not renting a bay. This one could be the basis for having every toy your little heart ever desired!! You'll need the space.
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Somehow, in your spare time, ie right now, Corey, get yourself "The E-Myth Revisited". Read it right through. It's a book, cheap enough on Amazon, which ought to help you with some steerage.
-------------------- "Stewey" on chat
"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull Posts: 7014 | From: Highgrove via Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
One thing I don't understand... why is it all cut vinyl? With the technology now available I would think second surface translucent prints would be the way to go, and make it a much easier and profitable job.
posted
I don't know Bill. It has NEVER seemed right to me..COST WISE. Put 12 inexperienced people in a room and tell them to apply 4-5 "nets" (what they call the Master Card, Interac, Visa logos) as much as 4 colour each and with cuts as small as .06" x .06" with a trap. I went BONKERS and THE SIGNS THEY MAKE mixed with teir politics are the reason I left. BUT, what about the woulda, coulda, shoulda. I have always tried to be the sign guy that has the ability to TURN DOWN JOBS (not many I have met do this)but this is bigger. I like feling in the driver seat, if the contract included NO NET SIGNAGE than I ?MAY? be able to tolerate it...on a trial contract.
Chuck makes it all seem possible with his reply. Thanks.
Ian, which book? Why Most Small Businesses Don't Work and What to Do About It? or
posted
Could you talk them into a more streamlined way of producing things??? Laminated translucent prints should have no problem lasting for 4 years. You could afford your own machine with a contract, or you could sub the printing out to me!!!
Suelynn
-------------------- "It is never too late to be what you might have been." -George Eliot
Suelynn Sedor Sedor Signs Carnduff, SK Canada Posts: 2863 | From: Carnduff, SK Canada | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Let's add this..... when I worked there, my marriage was EXTREMELY ROCKY and I still blame them for the highest % of why it was rocky. Since quitting and stating my own business, my wife and I have learned once again to gaze into each others eyes. Even though I am not an employee anymore, i will still have to deal with their deadlines, politics and "the kind of signs they are". The beef (from whayt they told me) with digital is that when the customer is pulling $$ out of the machine they look up at the sign while waiting for the process. The digital just isn't quite crisp enough..yet. That is the answer they gave me for 3 years. I am not a digital guy ubt, they got a big (I think 55") HP in there just before I left. They still don't / Can't get approval for using it on the Bank Signs. It sure would cut costs in labour and material...they just need a good salesman to sell the prints!!!Doesn't sound TOO hard does it?
posted
I think you will become a "grinder" if you do this. Grinding out a living, but not getting much of a thrill out of it. Grinding it out that is, until they change their mind about using you and it all "grinds" to a halt.
then you are left, I presume with bigger facilities than you need, more equipment than you can use, and bigger bills than you can pay.
That coupled with the marriage thing.....I just wouldn't do it.
I am sure you are capable and talented, but your business is fledgling, and as such, ought not fly until its "time".
It does not sound like this is that time. It sounds like they want to tie strings on your wings and spin you around really fast till the string breaks.
posted
Money doesn't equal happiness - look at all the chronically miserable people who have more money than god. I know plenty of them.
Essentially what happens if you take this, is you become their employee again, with all the demands and stress... But YOU get to deal with all the risks and liabilities of being self-employed. Explain to me how this is a good thing? To them this job has become too much of a PITA, so they are trying to sell you the headaches. HONK! WRONG!!
If you just can't stand the thought of all that money going someplace else, at least do what Chuck said and set your own terms and conditions. If you let them set the deal, they will beat you to death with it.
-------------------- "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
Cam Bortz Finest Kind Signs Pondside Iron works 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988" Posts: 3051 | From: Pawcatuck,Connecticut USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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posted
Just a thought... is this a project that will have you springing out of bed for to go gettem? Or will you wish you could sleep in?
I believe if you are inspired, you can move mountains. Just remember to follow YOUR dream. If this is a stepping stone to it, then by all means, eat your wheeties and get to it!
When I was first homebased, I had NO intention of having a storefront. But curiosity got to me when I was presented with an offer I couldn't pass up at the time. I went for it. And learned, and grew my biz. It was a very worthwhile adventure! It was also within my limitations, I could do it on my own or grow and hire. I chose to grow and hire. I did everything in my power that I was ready and comfortable with.
It's not for me now, but sometimes you have to get sidetracked for abit to know what you really want. Most millionaires are risk takers btw.
posted
Corey, I have a very small sign shop up in our barn. I am happy right where I am. I remember my husband wanting me to get into electrical signs, & I had no interest in it, & was too busy doing my own thing. He PUSHED & PUSHED me, & everything in me screamed , "NO!" All he could see was more dollar signs. I am not ready for it, & I am happy I didn't go for it.
Obviously, we need money to live, but it is not worth ruining your marriage over. If your business is pulling in enough right now, good for you. If you are growing, who is to say you won't grow bigger & bigger without this job? I agree with a lot of the different points of view here, yes, you really could make your business grow. But most of all, how do YOU feel about taking all this on ? Will you feel trapped? Will you have time to do work you ENJOY doing, that will allow you to be creative?
Will you have time to spend with your wife?
-------------------- The Word in Signs Bobbie Rochow Jamestown, PA 16134
724-927-6471
thewordinsigns@alltel.net Posts: 3485 | From: Jamestown, PA 16134 | Registered: Oct 2002
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I won't do electrical either because it is of no interest, just like I won't lay vinyl pinstriping or tint.......just not appealling. You got those ugly Black rental signs with the ugly flourecent changable letters?? Nope, don't do those either, I would have to kick my own ass if I did that.
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. — Charles Mingus Posts: 6718 | From: Mendocino, CA. USA | Registered: Nov 1998
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