posted
Having had the second woman refuse to sign my proposal in less than a month, I am wondering if my wording is wrong. Excuse the long quote below, but this is what my proposals say, and my brother the lawyer even OK'd this prior to printing.
I have been using the same proposal since 1993. I do plan to get new ones soon, as the sketch fee listed is only 25 bux, and the vehicle washing fee is low too. Apologies to Brooce for the over-use of SIGNAGE! Please let me know if this is out of line:
________________________________________________ PROPOSAL We hereby submit the following estimate: (space for description of sign, etc.) -Terms and Conditions- We propose to furnish materials & labor, as described above, for the estimated sum of:_______ Colors to be determined upon design approval, if not already done.
All artwork is the property of Jill's Custom Signs. It cannot be reproduced or used until purchased from, or work completed with Jill's Custom Signs. If you should use this artwork/design but not secure our services, Jill's Custom Signs will bill you. A maximum of two (2) sketches will be provided. Additional sketches will be provided for a fee of $25.00 per sketch.
Signage over $200.00 requires a 50% deposit ($_____) upon design approval. This deposit will go for materials andwill assure your place on our work schedule. Signage under $200.00 may require a $25.00 deposit, depending on the type or size of sign requested. FULL PAYMENT is due upon completion. All signage is the property of Jill's Custom Signs until paid in full. Signs left on the premises three working days after notification of completion will be charged a daily storage fee of $2.50.
All signs are subject to a 6%PA sales tax, unless otherwise specified. Please do not insult our creative intelligence by questioning our prices.
Any changes to the above proposal need to be addressed beyond this estimate. This estimate is an approximate cost for the signage detailed above. Any unforseen changes that arise will be conveyed to you before going any further. Any needed permits for the proposed signage are to be obtained by the customer. Vehicles must be washed prior to lettering or a washing fee of $10.00 will be charged. This estimate is good for 45 days from the following date. Thank you for choosing Jill's Custom Signs!
(space for my signature, the date, and the client's signature, printed on a two-part paper) _________________________________________________
Any suggestions on new wording would be welcome. I want to change the part about the sketches to say that designing will not commence without a deposit.
The woman who refused to sign today insisted that this is a contract not a proposal. It says "proposal" and "estimate" all over the place. Hellllp! Thanks & love.....Jill
-------------------- That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place. -Russ McMullin Posts: 8834 | From: Butler, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Get rid of the "Please do not insult our creative intelligence by questioning our prices" It sounds too confrontational
maybe "I supply high quality work with superior products and stand behind all of my creations and pricing" --This needs tweeking, but try to say it nicer with out assuming they are out to insult you when they wonder why the cost is so high.
-------------------- Phil Steffen, 29 Van Rensselaer St City of Saratoga Springs DPW Saratoga Springs NY 12866 Posts: 563 | From: beautiful Saratoga Springs NY | Registered: Aug 2001
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-------------------- Ed CJ Williams CJ Graffx Christiana,Pa. cjgraffx@comcast.net Just have'n fun.... Posts: 296 | From: Christiana,Pa. | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Make that vote number three.... Sorry. I just don't like it.
As far as her not willing to sign it, me thinks she got scared when she read that you get paid for something no matter what... meaning she probably was looking for a "freebie" sketch to shop for the lowest price.
There is nothing other than that to bind her to anything. Why do you suppose she was so against signing it? She is right in one regard as to it being a contract... it says she can't steal your design without compensation.
Damn shame... being made to be held accountable for keeping your word. Sheesh. Go figure.
Stick to your guns!
-------------------- Bruce Bowers
DrCAS Custom Lettering and Design Saint Cloud, Minnesota
"Things work out best for the people who make the best of the way things work out." - Art Linkletter Posts: 6451 | From: Saint Cloud, Minnesota | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Perhaps the reason the woman refused to sign on the dotted line was because she saw she wasn't going to be able to "have her way" when doing business with you.
It could have happened because your proposal says things she didn't want to hear.
In that case it did its job.
I do have to agree about the pricing line though. Although I agree with your sentiment, there's got to be a better way to say it.
-------------------- Paul Bierce - Designer pabierce@hotmail.com www.paulbierce.com Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Jill, I'd cut the hard numbers as much as possible. 45 days is a bit long to hold prices. ___________________________________________ All artwork remains the property of Jill's Custom Signs unless written change of ownership is completed. Any reproduction or use other than by Jill's Custom Signs without written permission will be charged accordingly.
The agreed-upon sketch fee will include a minimum of two (2) sketches. Additional sketches will be provided for an additional fee.
Projects over $200.00 requires a 50% deposit and signed estimate for work to be scheduled. Balance is due at completion. Projects under $200 must be paid in full in advance. All signage is the property of Jill's Custom Signs until paid in full. Signs left on the premises three working days after notification of completion will be charged a daily storage fee.
All signs are subject to PA sales tax, unless otherwise specified. If this project is tax exempt, a valid tax exemption certificate must be received by Jill’s Custom Signs or tax will be charged.
Any changes to the above proposal need to be addressed beyond this estimate. This estimate is an approximate cost for the signage detailed above. Any unforseen changes that arise will be conveyed to you before going any further.
Any required permits for the proposed signage must be obtained by the customer.
Vehicles must be washed prior to lettering or a washing fee will be charged.
This estimate is good for 30 days.
Thank you for choosing Jill's Custom Signs! __________________________________________ Why was she to sign? Was she accepting the proposal and thus ordering the job? If so, what difference does it make if it's a contract, estimate or proposal?
If she was just suppost to sign to acknowledge the stipulations about design, etc than I can see her point.
-------------------- Chris Welker Wildfire Signs Indiana, Pa Posts: 4254 | From: Indiana, PA | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Too verbose, there's a time & a place for everything. For a simple job this one is overwhelming.
In a specific proposal lay out your terms & conditions for that particular job, not your entire shop policies and views on life in general. Don't say that a deposit may be required, and never state why you need a deposit, your reasons for requiring a deposit are your own; no explaination is necessary.
State exactly what will be required for the particular quote, ie. Terms: Design deposit $____, fabrication 50% down, 50% on completion. 6% sales tax not included. Clearly specify delivery schedule, no mention of 'and will assure your place on our work schedule'. .
'All artwork remains the property of Jill's Custom Signs.' will cover you for copyright, and not just 'til they buy 1 sign from you. The rights are yours forever.
Don't list charges that may occur, that you're not likely ever to apply ie. "Signs left on the premises three working days after notification of completion will be charged a daily storage fee of $2.50" - When was the last time you collected for that one?
Municipalities & Contractors are likely used to long contracts, the average small business may not be. Yer scaring the bejaysus out of them.
Love,
Mike
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
Dido on leaving that one line out. We use $500 as our benchmark for the 50% down. We don't require it of our better customers. It may be the good old boy way and the wrong way to do it, but it is the way it is until we start having numerous problems. With the $500 benchmark, I don't have to bother with deposits to pinstripe somebody's car or pickup.
We must live in a more trustworthy area, because I never get money in advance under the $500 figure, and have been stiffed under 10 times in 26 years. I think you can come on so strong it makes you appear like you've got an angle. We rarely ever take deposits,and because of the repeat work, we have long lasting reliable customers.
I keep hearing about deposits and security measures, and I think it all depends on your area and customer pool. I guess we've been lucky, because the vast majority of our customers are on the up and up. We can kind of tell the deadbeats and with them -- well -- we're too busy.
-------------------- Bill Diaz Diaz Sign Art Pontiac IL www.diazsignart.com Posts: 2107 | From: Pontiac, IL | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I think Mike's comments are correct and to the point.
And I'm pretty sure an accepted proposal constitutes a contract. If not, then what is it? A contract is simply an agreement to do certain things for certain compensation. Don't you mean for the accepted proposal to be that?
We require and receive a design deposit of $100 to $500 and/or a 50% deposit on all jobs in our shop. We do this by simply listing payment terms of "50% on order, 50% due on receipt". Our cover letter on all proposals asks our customer to "confirm that all information is correct, including payment terms and delivery date". It goes on to say that production will begin "upon receipt of your deposit and approval of artwork". "To accept this proposal please sign and return by fax or e-mail".
There is no lengthy text on the proposal itself. Just a description of the work, the price, payment terms and delivery date.
-------------------- Paul Luszcz Zebra Visuals 27 Water Street Plymouth, MA 02360 508 746-9200 paul@zebravisuals.com Posts: 483 | From: 27 Water Street, Plymouth, MA 02360 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
I always require a 50% deposit on all jobs, regardless of total involved. As soon as I begin work, or buy materials for a customer, I begin using "their" money, not mine.
edit: BTW check out my SHORT policy. If you get through THAT, look at the FULL policy. Short Policy I reserve the written policy for new customers whenever I get that "feeling" up the back of my neck.
I would think it is necessary to have the policy posted in a visible manner in your shop. Let them know it is there, and then it is up to them to read it or not.
[ February 07, 2005, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Gene Golden ]
-------------------- Gene Golden Gettysburg Signs Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200 genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com
"Art is knowing when to stop." Posts: 1578 | From: Gettysburg, PA | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Pretty much what everybody else is saying, Jill. I think what needs to be in there is something along the line of "if you accept this proposal, then it becomes a contract, if I get the job."
That is poorly worded, but you get the general idea.
bill preston
[ February 07, 2005, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]
-------------------- Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA Posts: 943 | From: Fly Creek, N.Y. USA | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I would ask for the deposit before any design happens and get paid for your time whether they like the design or not. A timeline would be good, a budget not to exceed on the design, the sign, and the install, for the descibed work they are asking for, that way they get an idea of the seperate cost.
On the initial call you already have an established budget, what they want and what it's going on. Then propose up to thier budget.
-------------------- Rick Chavez Hemet, CA Posts: 1538 | From: Hemet,CA U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Damn Right it's a contract and one which she was afraid to break. Get those prices up, my 12 year old won't wash a car for $10, and take the line out, so you don't insult their intellegence(goes both ways).
How do you feel when you read the 'fine print' and see all the otherwise hidden charges?
Personally, I become skeptical, wonder what I'm getting myself into. Get any 'proposals' for a credit card lately?
I'm with Mike O'Neill;
quote:State exactly what will be required for the particular quote, ie. Terms: Design deposit $____, fabrication 50% down, 50% on completion. 6% sales tax not included. Clearly specify delivery schedule, no mention of 'and will assure your place on our work schedule'. .
I would also add whether installation and permits are included, or not.
Curious by nature, I ask plenty of questions prior to proposal which also gives me the chance to 'feel out' the client and verbalize art fees, up-charges and conditions, etc.
I don't normally itemize pricing as Doug mentions, unless required. Simply, the bottom line. Though, I itemize these things when I figure a job, in the event I'm asked or need to re-figure the job later on.
As for washing a vehicle, it's figured into the job whether the client washes it beforhand, or not. I use a bucket of soapy water and a hand sweep. (not a wisk broom) I can wash a vehicle in a matter of minutes, including tires and rims! It's no detailed job, but uniform and impressive. Then, prep the areas for vinyl, with Rapid Prep...
Hope this helps...
Cher.
-------------------- Co-Host: SANDCASTLE Panel Jam 'a Dixie Letterhead Reunion' Fort Myers, Florida
Cheryl Lucas a/k/a "Shag" on mIRC Vital Signs & Graphics, Etc. Cape Coral, Florida 239-574-4713 VSignsNgraphics@aol.com Posts: 987 | From: Cape Coral, FL USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
for the record, I will offer my reasons why I do some itemizing. If they want another signs & the artwork is done, that price is already figured. If they want to hire me now for art & maybe later for a sign... that price is already figured, if they want to install themselves to save money (I like that, less liability & I can stay here in the shop & make money)that price is already figured... & lastly... if they are bidding apples & oranges because the shyster down the street rolls out one low number & tells them later that art & install are extra... this may clue them in to asking what all is included in that other price.
posted
oh yeah, I forgot to add... quickbooks keeps track of these different accounts, so that is convenient for tracking where the money comes from to help in marketing strategies etc.
Of course, that may not be needed on proposals that don't turn into jobs, but QB makes the quote into an invoice with one click, & I figure my quote based on the seperate value of the different aspects of the work anyway, so to input it into QB is easy enough.
posted
Doug, I don't think Cheryl is saying don't itemize the costs. Rather don't show the itemized costs on a quotation, and again it depends on the situation. I work mainly with large industrial clients, if they request a price (rfq) for a sign, that, for them, is one line on a Purchase Order, they don't want to see 2 or 3 line items on the quotation. They don't care how you calculate it, all they want is the total cost. Often these companies will do repeat orders using the first order price. I've had cases where I've quoted on 10 small decals, included layout charges in the total price, and then had repeat orders in quantities of thousands at the same per unit price. If I'd quoted on thousands to begin with the unit price would have been much, much lower, but who am I to question a signed P.O.? If these companies want me to requote on thousands, I'm happy to do so and already have my costing worked out. On the other hand if I know an item is likely to be repeated, I won't charge artwork at all, even on a small initial order, thus making my quote (bid) low and assuring me of the contract.
I guess a good addage would be never to put more information on a quotation than is necessary to meet the needs of the particular client.
[ February 08, 2005, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Mike O'Neill ]
-------------------- Mike O'Neill
It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value. - Arthur C. Clarke
posted
(Please do not insult our creative intelligence by questioning our prices.) This line insults the customer I would not sign it for this reason alone. Some customers must haggle with prices it is just something they do. Question to you Jill "have you ever found a product or service that you thought was over priced?" Now how would you feel if you asked about the price and the business owner told you that you where insulting. When you buy a car do you pay the price on the sticker?
[ February 08, 2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Steve Eisenreich ]
-------------------- Steve Eisenreich Dezine Signs PO BOX 6052 Stn Forces Cold Lake, Alberta T9M 2C5 Posts: 774 | From: Cold Lake | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Jill, The line: "Please do not insult our creative intelligence by questioning our prices." startled me. I would leave that out.
If you just intend this to be a proposal and are only wanting them to sign it to acknowledge that they understand that your artwork is not to be reproduced, I would have a line at the bottom beside a space for their signature: "I have read and understand that this document is a proposal only and not a binding contract. I also understand that all artwork obtained from Jill's Signs is the copyrighted property of Jill's Signs, unless otherwise noted, and has been submitted to me for the purpose of making a sale. I agree to pay Jill's Signs in full for any artwork if used by me."_John Hancock_ If you do submit artwork before payment I would state what the fees are somewhere in there and I would save all of the $10 washing fees etc. for the actual contract when closing a sale.
But it works better for me not to do any artwork without a deposit. I would also charge a 50% deposit on ALL work.
[ February 08, 2005, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
-------------------- Wayne Webb Webb Signworks Chipley, FL 850.638.9329 wayne@webbsignworks.com Posts: 7404 | From: Chipley,Florida,United States | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Mike O'Neill: I guess a good addage would be never to put more information on a quotation than is necessary to meet the needs of the particular client.
Exactly.
Don't try to answer questions that haven't been asked yet, and don't volunteer any more information than what's absolutely neccessary.
Proposals are supposed to be very generic in nature, just a rough idea or concept. They should not be long novels, customers just want a very simple answer to a very simple question and they're always open to changes.
A proposal turns into a quote after more detailed discussion about specific requirements.
A quote becomes a contract after all the details are hashed out, a price is agreed upon, and a signature is written.
Don't put the cart before the horse. I used to give longwinded responses to emails, spent lots of time on each one getting detailed information together.. when I never heard back it would sipp me off. One day I was talking to my dad tellin him about it, he asked me to forward one of my replies to him, and he says "Hmm. Your response is too long, gives me info I never asked about. I wouldn't buy from you either. I made the same mistake too."
Now, I get a one-liner email, I give a one or two line reply. If they have any other questions they can ask in another email, if not it's a guaranteed sale I can take to the bank.
Keep it simple.
-------------------- "If I share all my wisdom I won't have any left for myself."
Mike Pipes stickerpimp.com Lake Havasu, AZ mike@stickerpimp.com Posts: 8746 | From: Lake Havasu, AZ USA | Registered: Jun 2000
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