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Author Topic: Bad experience with client
Dawn Ellis
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This morning I was scheduled to meet with a client for the 3rd time. (He had changed the 2 previous ones.) We were to meet at his boat for me to put registration numbers on his dinghy. I called him at 9:00 a.m. to confirm our 9:30 a.m. meeting.

He says he can't make 9:30 a.m. because he's meeting someone at his jobsite (he's a contractor). He suggests 10:15 a.m. Fine.

I'm at the dock gate at 10:15 a.m. and waiting. Call him at 10:30 a.m., he says I'm just a couple of blocks away, I'll be right there. He arrives at 10:50 a.m.

We look at his dinghy which is behind his 65 foot power boat. It still has some vinyl numbers on it. I say, "I didn't realize there was a removal as well, I'll need to charge a little extra for that." He says, "Well what if I do it myself," and he starts picking at them with his fingernail. I say "What about my time, do you expect me to stand here and watch you do this, and are you going to remove the adhesive residue as well?" He says, "If you're going to have such a problem doing this job then I'll make other arrangement." I said, "The only problem here is your total lack of consideration for other people's time."

I picked up my stuff and left. So why do I feel like crying now?

--------------------
Dawn Ellis
Signs by Dawn
Long Beach, CA
signsbydawn@aol.com

Trust yourself. Listen to the voice within. It is always right.

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Michael Latham
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Some people just don't get other people have responsibilities also. They don't get your time is just as valuable as yours.

Don't cry, just remember him and count your blessings he's out now.

--------------------
Michael A Latham
Tee's Me Shirt & Sign
16462 Jefferson Davis Highway
Colonial Heights Va. 804-835-3299
signdogopie@aol.com

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Duncan Wilkie
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Dawn,
No need to cry. If you had caved in and did it his way, that might be different. We all need to know when to draw the line...when enough is enough.
Good for you, you drew the line!
Give yourself a treat.

--------------------
Duncan Wilkie
aka signdog
http://www.comsign.ca
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

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Joe Rees
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You feel like crying because he totally dissed you. I think you managed pretty well to verbalize what an arrogant ass he is. If you were less eloquent (or a male) you might have accidentally knocked him or something else of value into the water as you turned to leave. Then you'd feel like cheering.

--------------------
Joe Rees
Cape Craft Signs
(Cape Cod, MA)
http://www.capecraft.com
e-mail: joe@capecraft.com

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Dan Streicher
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because someone wasted your time, and you didn't get any money for it, sorry to here that and I can understand your feelings.

But again just another reason to have a signed contract before you show up on the jobsite, contractors are getting paid for standby time and change orders and so should we!

We are professionals at what we do, and most of us have years of time invested into our craft. And we need to act like it, do not let your customers run your business, have your paperwork in order, charge what your time is worth, don't fret about the jobs you don't get as there are people out there that want to work with professionals who realize our time is valuable and that we have to be profitable to be viable as a business.

So Shish BOOM Bah RAH Rah RAH have your customers sign a contract before you show up to do work, send this jerk off a bill for your wasted time, and move on to the next job hopefully for a client that respects your talent and your time, it is OK to fire customers and usually they deserve it.

Hope you feel better

--------------------
Dan Streicher
Slidell, LA

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david drane
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quote:
But again just another reason to have a signed contract before you show up
Contract?...for boat registration numbers??? [I Don t Know]
You must be kidding. When would you get any work done? Sounds more like a job for a kneecapper to me. [Wink]

--------------------
Drane Signs
Sunshine Coast
Nambour, Qld.
dranesigns@bigpond.com
Downunder
"To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer"

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Dan Streicher
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we do a CONTRACT FOR EVERYTHING did you take the time to give a quote over the phone? or do you just show up and negotiate it on the spot? if it's the later of the two that would be a real good way to waste time and work for nothing. So what does it take after your phone conversation to fax a contract, to cover your butt and make sure you and your client have agreed on the same things, and what about having them sign off on the spelling of the registration numbers or do you just rattle them back on the phone? sounds like another way to work for free to me....we have the customers approve everything and sign off on a contract with our terms for doing any work and agreeing on the price, I guess it just goes back to choosing to be and act like a business or just, hoping everything turns out OK and that you never run into someone who takes advantage of people....for me I'll stick with working with a signed contract, take what you want and leave the rest.

--------------------
Dan Streicher
Slidell, LA

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Bob Rochon
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Dawn I feel for ya,

I wouldnt have done a contrat for boat numbers either. That's just plain silly.

[ February 03, 2005, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]

--------------------
Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
508-865-7330

"Life is Like an Echo, what you put out, comes back to you."

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Kissymatina
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Dawn, you dun good girl.

Why do you feel like crying? Cause you forgot to make fun of the size of his dingy while you were giving him what-for. [Wink]

--------------------
Chris Welker
Wildfire Signs
Indiana, Pa

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Sheila Ferrell
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Babydoll!!!

"I picked up my stuff and left. So why do I feel like crying now?"

Because you are a sweet and considerate person who has exhibited an enormous amount of patience since the first time he called, not to mention these other 3 gaffs and it's a bummer to realize he does'nt have a clue or appreciate it.


The longer you're in any kind of people business though, the easier it is to be more objective and even laugh at idiots who would dare abuse your good nature.

"He says, "If you're going to have such a problem doing this job then I'll make other arrangements." I said, "The only problem here is your total lack of consideration for other people's time."

Dawn, I think your answer was perfectly direct and to the more important point of exposing his rude behavior!

I, on the other hand would have had to question him about his schedule and let him know in some form of sarcasm his business habits have me wondering if he has enough business to afford me for the job. And when he said,
"If you're going to have such a problem doing this job then I'll make other arrangements."

I would'a had to give him a real big 'great-idea' facial expression and say, "Man, that is a GREAT idea!!" and smile while while I throw up a wave driving off.


If he ever calls you back, you be sure and tell him that your time is JUST as valuable as his and your prices are set, except for when you have to charge extra for missed appointments and travel and waiting time, and also tell him that at this point, he probably cannot afford your services and ask him why he's not checkin' into those 'other' arrangements.

It also ain't no secret, that some people even some business women, think they can intimidate a nice lady or a gentleman.
It never hurts to surprise 'em with a little grit and grin, just to let them know this ain't your first rodeo. [Wink]

--------------------
Signs
Sweet Home Alabama


oneshot on chat


"Look like a girl, act like a lady, think like a man, work like a dog"

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Todd Gill
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Har har....that was a good one Kissy...

The only thing I would have done different is to tell him he could make other arrangements but he owed you for production of the decals and your drive time none-the-less.....

In another past life....if this guy stuck me....he'd walk out to his truck one morning to find all his valve cores removed.....a 5 minute job on your part would cost him a day screwing around at the tire store. Nothing ruined...just forcing him to waste some of HIS time. [Razz]

But I digress...I'm not like that anymore (but these thoughts still pop up in my mind... [Mad] )

--------------------
Todd Gill
Outside The Lines
Potterville, MI

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Dawn Ellis
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Thanks everyone, for the encouragement, for the laughs, and for good suggestions. I'm feelin' much better. My skins getting thicker so look out future jerks!

--------------------
Dawn Ellis
Signs by Dawn
Long Beach, CA
signsbydawn@aol.com

Trust yourself. Listen to the voice within. It is always right.

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Suelynn Sedor
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...because you're a girl!!

It comes with the ovaries!

Suelynn

--------------------
"It is never too late to be what you might have been."
-George Eliot

Suelynn Sedor
Sedor Signs
Carnduff, SK Canada

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Jillbeans
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My dear Dawn...
You exhibited grace and dignity while under fire from a arrogant POS.
Here's to you, girlfriend, for walking away from that jagoff and not letting him see your tears.
I'm sending a virtual hug to one of my favorite people. Now go have a lovely chocolate martini!
What a weenie!
Love.....Jill
[Group Hug]

--------------------
That is like a Mr. Potato Head with all the pieces in the wrong place.
-Russ McMullin

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James Donahue
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Dawn, you not only handled it REAL well, but you did the sign trade a favor as well.

As far as the contract issue goes, I see both sides here. But I must say, Dan Striker has (as far as I know) always acted proffessional here, and I think there's something to be learned. It's about cause and effect relationships. As people in general get ruder, then there will be reactions like a contract for lettering on a dingy. Probably a fast way to weed out the bunk jobs.

--------------------
James Donahue
Donahue Sign Arts
1851 E. Union Valley Rd.
Seymour TN. (865) 577-3365 brushman@nxs.net

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch,
Benjamin Franklin

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Jeff Spradling
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Dawn,

I posted this a while ago but I thought this may answer the question of why you feel like crying.

Glad your feeling better.

Unknown author

*ARTISTS*

They are a race completely apart from all other human beings.

Their emotions, all their feelings, their reactions are opposed to so-called "normal" people's sentiments. They are vulnerable and deeply sensitive people, due to their talents, their super-imagination, their knowledge of hidden influences of which we ordinary human beings are not. They are not easy to live with - if you choose to live with them at all, if you have the luck to MEET THEM at all.

Writers, composers, painters - also artists like directors, and actors fall into the same category. They have to be handled with kid-gloves, mentally and physically. All their reactions go to extremes, compared to non-artistic human beings
As I was lucky enough to meet and love and work for many, many artists, I learned, not without heartbreak and pain, to become a better, more intelligent, respectful and devoted person. No tears were wasted in the process. My tears - not theirs:

Jeff [Smile]

--------------------
Jeff's Lettering
Lisa,Luke,Dara, and Jeff Spradling
5742 Shattuck Rd. Belvidere, Il.
61008 815-544-0167

Surviving another day.

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Curtis hammond
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You did good. Real good. walked away from an abusive cheapskate.

Likewise, You may what is known as a blue color code personality. That is,, you may feel bad after being assertive. IT is just part of you.

However, no matter what kind of personality we are there comes a point when the disrespect from a client must end no matter how bad you feel afterwords.

He dissed you by changing the appointments
Again by showing up late,,, twice,, and again by being a cheap rascal and trying to remove the old stuff himself. You went way above the call of duty.

He has no respect for the trade or what you do.
So, I feel you did great. Let him beat down someone else. But, I'll bet he treats the next one better.


All of us dump "them" type of customers. All of us have walked away and will do it again. In fact, one called here just yesterday and proudly announced that I would get the work if I was the cheapest. Told him sorry, but I don't bid the cheapest to get work thak you for calling and simply hung up.

Good job..

--------------------
Leaper of Tall buildings.. If you find my posts divisive or otherwise snarky please ignore them. If you do not know how then PM me about it and I will demonstrate.

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Si Allen
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Dawn...ya done gud gal! Except you were a lot more polite that I would have been!

Example:

This afternoon, I get a call: "Ahhh...what sign company is this?" I tell him "Allen Signs, what can I do for you?"
He thern starts asking what type of work we do, about references, about references, credit rating...at that point I ask "Just who are you to be asking all this?" He says "A customer!" I said "No! You are not!" and hung up!

LOL! I can just hear him bitching to other boat owners: "I called this broad to do the letters on my dinghy, and when I asked her to wait while I peeled the old ones off, she got pi**ed and told me to take the job and shove it! Can ya imagine that?"

THAT'S THE BEST ADVERTIZING you could hope for! It will save you much greif in the future!


[For Your Information]

[ February 03, 2005, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]

--------------------
Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA

(714) 521-4810

si.allen on Skype

siallen@dslextreme.com

"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

Never mess with your profile while in a drunken stupor!!!

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Bill Preston
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Why do you feel like crying after something like this?

Probably because this bird sorta blindsided you---something you totally didn't expect. Produces a sort of adrenalin rush to start with, then the letdown kicks in, and the tears really want to flow.

Now that a little time has gone by you might be able to look at the whole deal with more objectivity and less emotion. Bottom line: the guy was a jerk. Second bottom line: the world is full of them. Third bottom line: sooner or later, you will run into another one. 4th bottom line: next time you will see it coming sooner.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. The sun will still come up in the East tomorrow morning.

FWIW

--------------------
Bill Preston
Fly Creek, N.Y. USA

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Ian Stewart-Koster
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Dawn, 2 things-

1. the first loss is the cheapest loss. By pulling out when you did, you saved further wasted time & anguish. He may have taken half an hour then gone off to get his nephew to finish it and taken another hour while you stood there, then he may have argued for a discount because of all the work he 'saved' you..... etc. It could have been so much worse, so be grateful you stopped it as cheaply as you did. Some people liek that just have a knack of screwing every cent out of everyone, and rather than lament about the lost time & vinyl, be glad you didn't lose 10 times more in later stringing-alongs.

2. You still have the vinyl which you may be able to sell to him (for whatever price you decide) to apply himself, if he comes back, but I'd refuse to do the installation.

Have a great weekend!

--------------------
"Stewey" on chat

"...there are no limits when you aim for perfection..." Jonathan Livingston Seagull

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Gene Golden
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Dawn,
Si mentioned something that I think is worth listening for in the future. He may bitch to other boat owners, but my bet is that he'll mention it to the next sign guy/gal too.

This "customer" will probably mention this episode to the NEXT sign company he calls. If you are ever that NEXT sign company called, you should see a red flag going up. If he's had a run-in with one sign company, you can rest assured, he will have a problem with you too.

Whenever a customer comes to me after dealing with another sign company, I always assume the worst. Add that PITA fee upfront and deal with them cautiously. Hefty deposits are a good idea.

--------------------
Gene Golden
Gettysburg Signs
Gettysburg PA 17325 717-334-0200
genegolden@gettysburgsigns.com

"Art is knowing when to stop."

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Denis E. Renaud
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I would have told him that he needs you, you don't need him.Then thank him for being the a..h..e of the day, and because of him,... the rest of the day it's all gonna be uphill from now!

--------------------
Denis Renaud
EXIT66 Signs & Graphics
Caselman, ON Can.
denis@exit66.ca

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Mike O'Neill
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Heading is wrong...

This jerk is anything but a client,

You did the right thing, top it off by sending him an invoice for wasted time and describe it as such. [Smile]

--------------------
Mike O'Neill


It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.
- Arthur C. Clarke


mike@copyshop.ca

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Bill Diaz
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Dawn, you did the right thing. Jeff explains pretty well why you feel like crying. It burns me to hear these stories which keep coming up on the board, but it reaffirms the fact that they are typical amidst our trade.

I offer no advice here other than I would not bother with a contract for a job this small either, but I would probably not bid on the job, thus avoiding the appointments and trips. I try to avoid trips to look at jobs I don't already have. A verbal committment or a handshake work in a small farming community like ours and always have. I guess we're lucky.

The a$$holes of the world get their names circulated around here. They have difficulty getting things done once they are blackballed by the various trades.

The gall of that guy trying to save some money. He obviously could afford it based on the 65' power boat. Maybe his money came from trampling over other folks. What's wrong with people like that?

--------------------
Bill Diaz
Diaz Sign Art
Pontiac IL
www.diazsignart.com

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John Deaton
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Ya did good Dawn. Only thing I would have done different was make him pay for the letters.
If he balked, Id peel em and stick em on his d*** head.
I had a trucker come by for lettering one day. Told him to be sure and remove any old lettering.
Sure enough, he drives up with old stuff on the doors. I mean OLDstuff!
I told him what we agreed on, and he asked me what I charge to take them off. After I told him, he said, well, Ill take em off myself, and starts peeling. This just hit me wrong, so I told him we would have to do it another day.
He got in his truck and drove off, madder than heck, but so was I. He was wasting my time.
Thing is, he came back later and had me do the truck, and was apologetic about it. It worked out good that time, but it dont do that all the time.

--------------------
Maker of fine signs and
other creative stuff.
Located at 109 N. Cumberland ave.
Harlan, Ky. 40831
606-837-0242

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Cam Bortz
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There's a billion boats out there and they all need numbers. Bet on the fact that this schmuck called every sign shop in the book before he found someone who said they would actually come out and look at a dingy to put registration numbers on it.

So what else could you have said? Something like "you have two choices. Tell us what size and color you want them, come pick them up, install them yourself. $25. OR come by the shop, choose your size and colors, and we will go install your numbers according to our schedule. The minimum charge to go to a boatyard and install numbers is $100. We do not remove old numbers; if the boat is not prepped, you will be billed for an extra trip."

Now you have set the terms by which you do business with him, rather than given him the chance to bully you and waste your time over a set of friggin' boat numbers. And best of all, no tears.

--------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle


Cam Bortz
Finest Kind Signs
Pondside Iron works
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

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Paul Bierce
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In my experience, one of the hardest things to do is to POLITELY tell someone to "Go jump in a lake."

In that department you did pretty well Dawn. You explained your professional position and when he was unwilling to extend you a little respect you decided to terminate the relationship. Nothing wrong with that.

Lately, I've been trying a use a business philosophy I call "What would a plumber do?" to keep clients from taking me for a ride. It works pretty well.

Just remember something one of my college professors told me once, "Most people think they could do their own art if they could draw just a little bit better"

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Paul Bierce - Designer
pabierce@hotmail.com
www.paulbierce.com

Posts: 330 | From: Dix Hills, NY | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fotis Nakos
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Member # 5470

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Its not worth to crying about him.You have done the best thing that you can. This type of character its better to stay away from as...

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Fotis Nakos
Makris-Nakos Signs
Aroh Patras
+306974436031
Pilafimekima@mycosmos.gr

Posts: 9 | From: Greece | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bruce Williams
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Member # 691

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I don't like the idea of making a formal contract over a dinky dinghy, but I'd bet Dan Striker speaks from experience. Eventually, one develops a checklist, by counting up the nasty surprises. Such as, Does the thing already have letters on it? Is it in the water? How far from the parking lot? Lots of folks in this BB, who letter vehicles, insist on clean surfaces; old-paint removal (not Joe) has to go to a body shop.

In a modern world with division-of-labor, everyone does not know what everybody else does for a living, and only an ignoramus would presume to. Your non-client thinks he's gonna remove vinyl with his fingernails? What? Not even razor-blade? Bet he never heard of Rapid Roger either. Maybe he got stung on his yacht deal, and intends to recover it a dollar at a time.

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Bruce Williams
Lexington KY

Posts: 945 | From: Lexington, KY, USA | Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Peter Schuttinga
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I've spoken to a few self employed tradesmen and the common thread would be to give the guy a few options, all of which are going to cost him irregardles.:
Phrase it something like this:
You failed to mention that there is lettering to remove. I can't install over top of these so we can do one of three things:

1. I can come back when you have the old lettering removed and have the glue residue removed. You'll have to arrange another time with me and since time is money I will have to charge you for another round trip from the shop.

2. I can save you the cost of a round trip,I'll remove the lettering and glue residue for you at the going shop rate and then complete the install. No need for a return trip.

In this instance he would have suggested you to wait and have him remove the lettering. You then tell him that you would love to watch him remove the lettering, as it's not too often you get paid shop rate to supervise a customer.

Sounds like he would have balked at this too, so present him with the final option:

3. I obviously wasted my time and yours. Here is the lettering you have purchased from me, and there obviously will not be an installation fee, but I will have to charge you for delivery of the lettering.

have a nice day..

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"Are we having fun yet?"
Peter Schuttinga
DZines Sign Studio
1617 Millstream rd
Victoria BC
V9B-6G4

Posts: 521 | From: Victoria BC | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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